Left-Wing Discussion Thread

[Pandeeria]

Just finished reading The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin. If I may ask, what's your favorite Leftist literature? What would you recommend for a 17 year old American Progressive?

The Revolution Betrayed by Leon Trotsky.

[Liriena]

Just finished reading The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin. If I may ask, what's your favorite Leftist literature? What would you recommend for a 17 year old American Progressive?

I'm fond of Gramsci's writings, and love me some Frankfurt School now and then.

One thing that makes them interesting reads is that they did some of their best work during the rise of fascism and nazism, which gave them an interesting perspective on the future of capitalism and left-wing ideals.

[Pandeeria]

How closely is social democracy and communism intertwined? I view the socialist scale as going from social democracy to democratic socialism to communism. There have been communists who have been social democrats. Mikhail Gorbachev was one. He wanted to reform the Soviet Union into a European social democracy. Maybe the Soviet Union would have then gotten along with Yugoslavia and countries like Sweden.

Social Democracy is capitalism. It's not at all Socialist.

[New Werpland]

How closely is social democracy and communism intertwined? I view the socialist scale as going from social democracy to democratic socialism to communism. There have been communists who have been social democrats. Mikhail Gorbachev was one. He wanted to reform the Soviet Union into a European social democracy. Maybe the Soviet Union would have then gotten along with Yugoslavia and countries like Sweden.

Social Democracy is capitalism. It's not at all Socialist.

What about ethically?

[Pandeeria]

Social Democracy is capitalism. It's not at all Socialist.

What about ethically?

What does that even mean? Regardless, Communism is materialist and scientific at it's base. It doesn't take into account things like ethics when proposing concepts and theories.

[New Werpland]

What about ethically?

What does that even mean? Regardless, Communism is materialist and scientific at it's base. It doesn't take into account things like ethics when proposing concepts and theories.

Ethical socialism.

[Pandeeria]

What does that even mean? Regardless, Communism is materialist and scientific at it's base. It doesn't take into account things like ethics when proposing concepts and theories.

Ethical socialism.

That reeks of idealism and utopian thinking. And it makes appeals to Socialism, it itself does not constitute Socialism.

[Pandeeria]

Social democracy is also scientific and materialist.

I don't think you get what is meant by that.

Communism, and more so Marxism, doesn't state nor do things because "it's wrong" or "it's right". When Marx used the terms "exploited" and "exploitation" he was referring to their purely mechanical definitions. Not to spooks like morality.

Furthermore, Communism is scientific in that it holds it's claims and concepts up to an empirical standard. Historical precedence and material conditions reign supreme in Communist theory. Ideology, morality, and Utopianism is to reside elsewhere. There even was a branch of Marxist and Communist theory that was idealistic and utopian, however that died out a long time ago.

Social Democracy on the other hand is riddled with Liberalism and Progressvisim. Riddled with spooks and ideology. So as long as Social Democracy is ultimately founded upon Liberalism and Progressivism (read: forever) it will never be scientific in the sense that Communism is. It will never be materialist in the sense that Marxism is.

[The Liberated Territories]

What about ethically?

What does that even mean? Regardless, Communism is materialist and scientific at it's base. It doesn't take into account things like ethics when proposing concepts and theories.

So you have no principles? Does not anything motivate you?

[Conscentia]

Just finished reading The Conquest of Bread by Kropotkin. If I may ask, what's your favorite Leftist literature? What would you recommend for a 17 year old American Progressive?

I like Oscar Wilde's The Soul of Man under Socialism - I'd recommend it if you haven't already read it. I think it's an interesting read, even if you don't agree with it all.

In-case you're interested, the next iteration of the Left-Wing Discussion Thread will have a list of recommendations in the OP. If you have suggestions for what to include in that list, I could add them.

Additionally:

Given that the new OP will have a reading list, what do you all think of expanding on that and having a more multimedia approach? Books and articles are good, but in the 21st Century there are other means of presenting and promoting left-wing ideas. We could have lists of relevant recommended videos, YouTube channels, subreddits, websites, etc.

Opinions? Suggestions?

[Conscentia]

"Put two toddlers in a crib with only one toy to share and you'll figure out quickly communism doesn't work without constant coercive interference." —Darjihad

The analogy in your signature is faulty. It implies that communism advocates equality of outcome. It doesn't.

[The Liberated Territories]

"Put two toddlers in a crib with only one toy to share and you'll figure out quickly communism doesn't work without constant coercive interference." —Darjihad

The analogy in your signature is faulty. It implies that communism advocates equality of outcome. It doesn't.

Obviously. Their ain't enough toys to go around for everyone.

[Conscentia]

The analogy in your signature is faulty. It implies that communism advocates equality of outcome. It doesn't.

Obviously. Their ain't enough toys to go around for everyone.

If you recognise that the analogy is faulty, why are you keeping it in your signature?

[Pandeeria]

What does that even mean? Regardless, Communism is materialist and scientific at it's base. It doesn't take into account things like ethics when proposing concepts and theories.

So you have no principles? Does not anything motivate you?

Achieving a classless, moneyless, stateless society is what motivates me. Of course that will never happen in my life time, and I'm starting to think it will never happen, so I'm not exactly a motivated person as of now.

[Bogdanov Vishniac]

"Put two toddlers in a crib with only one toy to share and you'll figure out quickly communism doesn't work without constant coercive interference." —Darjihad

The analogy in your signature is faulty. It implies that communism advocates equality of outcome. It doesn't.

It also cuts equally well for the non aggression principle, property rights, and lots of other things too.

Maybe a stage of human life where we're dominated by impulse, have no object permanence and are physically incapable of believing the universe doesn't revolve around us is not particularly suited to political analogy?

[The Dragon Realms Empire]

Social democracy is also scientific and materialist.

You can draw parallels between social democracy and communism but the end goal is different between the two; Namely in social democracy the differences between classes are meant to be reduced rather than abolished and reform the system to make it more fair, whereas Communism wants to abolish the system entirely.

Also to note that Stalinism Maoism and Juche don't support progressivism.

[The Great and Mighty Napoleon]

How closely is social democracy and communism intertwined? I view the socialist scale as going from social democracy to democratic socialism to communism. There have been communists who have been social democrats. Mikhail Gorbachev was one. He wanted to reform the Soviet Union into a European social democracy. Maybe the Soviet Union would have then gotten along with Yugoslavia and countries like Sweden.

Just because Gorbachev said "democratic socialism" doesn't make him a social democrat.

The socialist scale goes in two dimensions from National Socialism to Juche in terms of left vs right wing and from Communism to Social Democracy in terms of radicalness.

[The Great and Mighty Napoleon]

Just because Gorbachev said "democratic socialism" doesn't make him a social democrat.

The socialist scale goes in two dimensions from National Socialism to Juche in terms of left vs right wing and from Communism to Social Democracy in terms of radicalness.

National socialism is not socialism. It is far-right fascism. The Nazis hated socialists and were the enemies of the progressive movement.

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

[PaNTuXIa]

Daily reminder that bunkerchan is far superior to /leftypol/

Isn't bunkerchan the place where tankies congregate to worship lord and savior Joseph Stalin and his great disciple Enver Hoxha?

Yeah, but there's also a lot of anarchists.

[PaNTuXIa]

National socialism is not socialism. It is far-right fascism. The Nazis hated socialists and were the enemies of the progressive movement.

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

Fascism is neither socialism nor capitalism. It is a mixture of both.

[Pandeeria]

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

Fascism is neither socialism nor capitalism. It is a mixture of both.

Fascism is not Socialist at all, and had merely inherited Socialist phraseology (the Fascist parties of the 20th century evolved from genuine Socialist parties that existed prior to world war one).

As others say, Fascism really is just capitalist reaction.

[Conscentia]

National socialism is not socialism. It is far-right fascism. The Nazis hated socialists and were the enemies of the progressive movement.

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

Fascism is not socialist - it maintains the capitalist mode of production, advocating class collaboration in the form of totalitarian corporatism.

[Isyrannaea]

National socialism is not socialism. It is far-right fascism. The Nazis hated socialists and were the enemies of the progressive movement.

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

stop

[PaNTuXIa]

Fascism is socialism, just a different kind.

Fascism is not socialist - it maintains the capitalist mode of production, advocating class collaboration in the form of totalitarian corporatism.

Pretty much. However, many fascists were influenced by socialists, such as Gentile and Mussolini.

[Pandeeria]

Fascism is not socialist - it maintains the capitalist mode of production, advocating class collaboration in the form of totalitarian corporatism.

Pretty much. However, many fascists were influenced by socialists, such as Gentile and Mussolini.

Well the Fascism practiced in Europe and Asia in the 20th century did evolve from Socialism.