Left-Wing Discussion Thread

[Kalifati Arab shqiptar]

H O X H A I S M

[New confederate ramenia]

Oh, derp. Still, why are anarchists grouped with communists?

Because what else would you call a classless, stateless society but...anarchist?

Marxist analysis is a tool, but there are tons of ideologies based off of it called Marxist.

Seems silly to turn a tool into a belief-system.

There are plenty of non-communist anarchists who have to pick other. And isn't all communism Marxist?

[The Serbian Empire]

H O X H A I S M

Do we need more bunkers? This is how we get more bunkers.

[Arglorand]

Because what else would you call a classless, stateless society but...anarchist?



Seems silly to turn a tool into a belief-system.

There are plenty of non-communist anarchists who have to pick other. And isn't all communism Marxist?

Not really.

[Xarchia (Ancient)]

Seems silly to turn a tool into a belief-system.

A worrisome tendency with self-proclaimed Marxists is precisely that: turning it into a dogma.

I use Marxian analysis myself, so I refer to myself as a Marxist in that sense for simplicity of understanding, but this cultish thing particularly Marxists-Leninists have is not good

Too true. In all fairness though this is a universal human tendency, it just shows up all the more clearly and ironically in an ideology that claims to reject religion.

[Xarchia (Ancient)]

Because what else would you call a classless, stateless society but...anarchist?



Seems silly to turn a tool into a belief-system.

There are plenty of non-communist anarchists who have to pick other. And isn't all communism Marxist?

I don't identify as a "Marxist", but I am happy to make use of Marxist theory when it seems to provide a useful and accurate framework for understanding, i.e. when it seems to be the best tool for the job.

Also, no way that all communism is "Marxist". I would say that communism is a basic human activity. Anytime somebody acts from the basis of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need", they are behaving like communists. If somebody asks you for a cigarette on the street, and you give them one without asking "Well what's in it for me?", that's communism.

[Kalifati Arab shqiptar]

H O X H A I S M

Do we need more bunkers? This is how we get more bunkers.

But, but Jeremy Corbyn. If there was transcendence he would have been so proud to know that his ideas are spreading, hopefully, the bunkers and forced labour camps too.

[Arglorand]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

[Arglorand]

Do we need more bunkers? This is how we get more bunkers.

But, but Jeremy Corbyn. If there was transcendence he would have been so proud to know that his ideas are spreading, hopefully, the bunkers and forced labour camps too.

Have you been reading the Daily Mash

[Calimera II]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Why always this idea of a ''classless'' society and not focus on the establishment of ''one class?'' The classless society will never be achieved.

[New confederate ramenia]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Why always this idea of a ''classless'' society and not focus on the establishment of ''one class?'' The classless society will never be achieved.

They're really the same thing.

[Arglorand]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Why always this idea of a ''classless'' society and not focus on the establishment of ''one class?'' The classless society will never be achieved.

If there is only one class, is that not a classless society?

You can only identify separate classes when there's more than one.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Deleted.

[New confederate ramenia]

Eh, maybe this warrants a new right wing thread.

Why?

[Geilinor]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Doesn't Marxism involve the belief that a socialist economy will transition to communism?

[Calimera II]

Why always this idea of a ''classless'' society and not focus on the establishment of ''one class?'' The classless society will never be achieved.

They're really the same thing.

But the classless society will never be achieved; there will always be people who do not fit within one class. Or well, you could just prohibit the use of the word... Focussing on the establishment of one class will not necessarily lead to the establishment of one class.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

Eh, maybe this warrants a new right wing thread.

Why?

I just realized we actually have a right wing thread, never mind. Having threads for separate ideologies always seemed dumb to me.

[New confederate ramenia]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Doesn't Marxism involve the belief that a socialist economy will transition to communism?

This. IIRC Marx believed that society progresses from capitalism to socialism to communism. And of course all the class conflict and sublation/progress all magically stops at communism.

[Kalifati Arab shqiptar]

But, but Jeremy Corbyn. If there was transcendence he would have been so proud to know that his ideas are spreading, hopefully, the bunkers and forced labour camps too.

Have you been reading the Daily Mash

The Independent...

Rroftë Partia dhe Shoku Enver!

[Arglorand]

In a more political sense, you don't have to accept Marxian analysis to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society.

Equally, you don't necessarily have to believe in the establishment of a stateless, classless society to use Marxian analysis. I am one of the latter kind of people; I feel that Marxian analysis explains mankind's socioeconomic stages and advancement between them very well, and I largely accept the principle that class struggle is the driving force of that advancement. I however remain unconvinced that after a hypothetical socialist (aka classless) society has been established, it will necessarily transition into a stateless society (aka communism) as well - the whole "the state shall wither away" thing sounds more like a high fantasy prophecy than real analysis.

I also fail to see how a stateless society would function. I however accept that this may be largely due to the fact that I do not, of course, live in an age where such a society would be hypothetically possible.

Doesn't Marxism involve the belief that a socialist economy will transition to communism?

Essentially. I however am not a Marxist in an ideological sense. I merely use Marxian analysis when it suits me and, more importantly, basic logic.

I do not believe in the parts that make no sense to me.

They're really the same thing.

But the classless society will never be achieved; there will always be people who do not fit within one class. Or well, you could just prohibit the use of the word... Focussing on the establishment of one class will not necessarily lead to the establishment of one class.

Prohibiting the use of the word "class" will not eliminate the existence of classes.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

Why?

I just realized we actually have a right wing thread, never mind. Having threads for separate ideologies always seemed dumb to me.

It is. And it always will be. Because either side can't help but spit acid in each other's faces.

[Arglorand]

Doesn't Marxism involve the belief that a socialist economy will transition to communism?

This. IIRC Marx believed that society progresses from capitalism to socialism to communism. And of course all the class conflict and sublation/progress all magically stops at communism.

The stopping part is based under the logic that once exploitation has been eliminated, class struggle will simply no longer occur, because classes no longer exist.

It is arguably less nonsensical than the very bold assumption that there are no more stages of exploitation after capitalism and before socialism, which seems like it might not be true (it looks awfully like the world is progressing out of capitalism, but definitely not into socialism)

[Calimera II]

I just realized we actually have a right wing thread, never mind. Having threads for separate ideologies always seemed dumb to me.

It is. And it always will be. Because either side can't help but spit acid in each other's faces.

I don't tend to spit acid, though.

[Furry Alairia and Algeria]

It is. And it always will be. Because either side can't help but spit acid in each other's faces.

I don't tend to spit acid, though.

I'm talking generally about either side.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Oh, derp. Still, why are anarchists grouped with communists?

Because what else would you call a classless, stateless society but...anarchist?

Marxist analysis is a tool, but there are tons of ideologies based off of it called Marxist.

Seems silly to turn a tool into a belief-system.

Most of history's biggest tools have propagated belief systems.