Right-Wing Discussion Thread

[Conscentia]

Were not paying attention to the context of this discussion?

Kauthar said "We should've let Hitler win in the Eastern Front" - which would mean letting the Nazi plan happen. All you relatives would've been eventually killed or exiled, assuming they weren't of German descent.

Well, I am aware. My point is that they didn't even to start to implement the policy in Estonia. They got 30000 troops and did not do any genocide.
Stalin did far more damage to the people.

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the war, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

[United Marxist Nations]

Well, I am aware. My point is that they didn't even to start to implement the policy in Estonia. They got 30000 troops and did not do any genocide.
Stalin did far more damage to the people.

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

It should be noted, also, that the War itself was incorporated into the plan. The Nazis saw no reason to restrict the plan to concentration camps; infantry battalions can wipe out minorities and political dissidents just as well as a gas chamber can.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

And? The right has caused millions of deaths in Germany, Italy, across Europe. As if your values are bloodless.

My values are not the same as those of the Nazis, or the Italian Fascists. In fact, those regimes had more in common with the philosophy of the French Revolution than with traditionalist conservatism and monarchism.

Misguided traditionalism continues to cause the deaths of many in the form of LGBT people bullied to the point of suicide, if thats the traditionalism you espouse.

[Jumalariik]

Well, I am aware. My point is that they didn't even to start to implement the policy in Estonia. They got 30000 troops and did not do any genocide.
Stalin did far more damage to the people.

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the war, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

[Conscentia]

I doubt you interact much with liberals. No liberal I've spoken to would hold the position that "Stalin was a hero".
This thread isn't liberal-dominated. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a liberal - especially when you side with total rubbish like 'It would've been better if the Nazis won the Eastern Front'.

I deal with liberals on a daily basis actually, not that it matters to the discussion. You would be surprised at how accepting of communists liberals are in comparison to the nazis. Communism is seen as a joke, Ushankas and Vodka. Nazism is a different kettle of fish. Look at NS itself, if you have hammers and sickles or Stalin faces that is ok, but Swastikas are not. So liberals are a but more pro-communist than one would like.

Firstly, Stalin targeted other communists as well.
Secondly, that has nothing to do with liberals. Marxist-Leninist symbols are tolerated, but so are Italian Fascist and Falangist symbols. Nazis are singled out.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the war, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

And murdering tens of thousands of people is perfectly acceptable to write off because they were Jews and Communists?

[United Marxist Nations]

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the war, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

Okay, so you get mad about how the Communists killed Estonians after the war, but then say that the Estonians got their own SS division and were just killing collaborators? That is the exact same excuse you hear from the most hardcore Stalinists about the massacres of Estonians (that they were all Nazi collaborators).

[Jumalariik]

My values are not the same as those of the Nazis, or the Italian Fascists. In fact, those regimes had more in common with the philosophy of the French Revolution than with traditionalist conservatism and monarchism.

Misguided traditionalism continues to cause the deaths of many in the form of LGBT people bullied to the point of suicide, if thats the traditionalism you espouse.

What do you mean by misguided traditionalism?

[Jumalariik]

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

Okay, so you get mad about how the Communists killed Estonians after the war, but then say that the Estonians got their own SS division and were just killing collaborators? That is the exact same excuse you hear from the most hardcore Stalinists about the massacres of Estonians (that they were all Nazi collaborators).

Well unlike the Germans, the Soviets killed Estonians before, during, and after the war. You know, I'm sure that if the Germans had won, I'd be mad at the Germans. But, they didn't win.

[Jumalariik]

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

And murdering tens of thousands of people is perfectly acceptable to write off because they were Jews and Communists?

Wow, you really really read through the lines. You got from my post that I think it's ok to kill Jews and Communists.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

And murdering tens of thousands of people is perfectly acceptable to write off because they were Jews and Communists?

Wow, you really really read through the lines. You got from my post that I think it's ok to kill Jews and Communists.

Well you basically said that the Nazis were not committing mass murders to fulfill their Eastern Plan, then when told that that was 100% false wrote off those deaths as "just Jews and collaborators," so I really have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

[Jumalariik]

Wow, you really really read through the lines. You got from my post that I think it's ok to kill Jews and Communists.

Well you basically said that the Nazis were not committing mass murders to fulfill their Eastern Plan, then when told that that was 100% false wrote off those deaths as "just Jews and collaborators," so I really have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

I was just saying that Jews and Collaborators would not really count as true members of the Estonian nation in say 1940.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Well you basically said that the Nazis were not committing mass murders to fulfill their Eastern Plan, then when told that that was 100% false wrote off those deaths as "just Jews and collaborators," so I really have no idea what it is you are trying to say.

I was just saying that Jews and Collaborators would not really count as true members of the Estonian nation in say 1940.

So Estonian Jews and Communists are not Estonian?

[Jumalariik]

I was just saying that Jews and Collaborators would not really count as true members of the Estonian nation in say 1940.

So Estonian Jews and Communists are not Estonian?

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not? I mean a Hungarian Jew is a Jew, unless they are completely assimilated. And Communists were just traitors to any nation in Eastern Europe.

[Old Tyrannia]

My values are not the same as those of the Nazis, or the Italian Fascists. In fact, those regimes had more in common with the philosophy of the French Revolution than with traditionalist conservatism and monarchism.

Misguided traditionalism continues to cause the deaths of many in the form of LGBT people bullied to the point of suicide, if thats the traditionalism you espouse.

I've never advocated the mistreatment or marginalisation of LGBT people, and people committing suicide because of bullying, whilst awful, is not comparable to the government actively executing thousands of people for their political beliefs. You're just grasping at straws.

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not? I mean a Hungarian Jew is a Jew, unless they are completely assimilated.

A Hungarian Jew is indeed a Jew. A Hungarian Jew is also, by definition, Hungarian. Your insistence that Estonian Jews don't count as "part of the Estonian nation" is flat-out anti-Semitism.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

So Estonian Jews and Communists are not Estonian?

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not?

Because they go to a different church?

And even then, that's not enough to say they aren't Europeans when they had been living there for centuries, unless Americans aren't American.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Misguided traditionalism continues to cause the deaths of many in the form of LGBT people bullied to the point of suicide, if thats the traditionalism you espouse.

I've never advocated the mistreatment or marginalisation of LGBT people, and people committing suicide because of bullying, whilst awful, is not comparable to the government actively executing thousands of people for their political beliefs. You're just grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at straws. Traditionalist policies, maybe not yours, but those of many people who call themselves "Traditional Conservatives" (at least in the US) actively enable the kind of behaviors that lead to the marginalization of LGBT people. Support for things like legal conversion therapy and opposition to measures to give LGBT people protections such as through Title IX, the Civil Rights Act, and even one example of a "Traditional Conservative" (Ted Cruz) opposing the renewal of the Violence Against Women Act because it was going to be amended to include LGBT couples actively breed a society in which LGBT people can be harassed and bullied without consequence.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

So Estonian Jews and Communists are not Estonian?

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not? I mean a Hungarian Jew is a Jew, unless they are completely assimilated. And Communists were just traitors to any nation in Eastern Europe.

Jews are Jews. They are also a member of whatever nationality they were born into.

[Conscentia]

The Nazis occupied Estonia between 1941 and 1944. During that duration they were distracted fighting a war on two fronts. Despite that, they, contrary to what you believe, did begin their genocide - with them and their collaborators killing tens of thousands. Generalplan Ost wasn't finalised until 1942, and while some of it was implement during the war, much of it was intended to be implement after Germany won the war - to be implemented over the course of a couple decades. The only reasons they didn't kill more was that they were distracted by ongoing war, only occupied the territory for a short period, and lost the war. Stalin did more damage only because Estonia was part of the USSR for a vastly longer period of time.

No-one said Stalin was harmless. The only thing we object to is the notion that the Nazis would somehow have been better when their intentions were to systematically, and purposefully annihilate the populations of Eastern Europe.

Most of those "tens of thousands" were either collaborator communists or Jews who unfortunately did not get out to Finland before the Germans got in. If they were killing tons of Estonians, how come they got 30000 SS troops?

Because Estonian Jews and communists don't count?

Ethnic Estonians were killed too, but the numbers were limited for the reasons I already stated. In the long term, Generalplan Ost outlines that 50% of Ethnic Estonians were to be exterminated or expelled. The remaining 50% were estimated as being of German or otherwise Aryan descent - the plan for them being to utterly destroy Estonian culture and force upon these people German culture. Anyone who resisted 'Germanisation' was to be executed.

The Nazis believed that German blood should not support non-German nations, and that it was better to put non-Germans in the line of fight against Bolshevism where possible. Their recruitment of locals was pragmatic, and does not reflect their long-term intentions.

[Jumalariik]

Misguided traditionalism continues to cause the deaths of many in the form of LGBT people bullied to the point of suicide, if thats the traditionalism you espouse.

I've never advocated the mistreatment or marginalisation of LGBT people, and people committing suicide because of bullying, whilst awful, is not comparable to the government actively executing thousands of people for their political beliefs. You're just grasping at straws.

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not? I mean a Hungarian Jew is a Jew, unless they are completely assimilated.

A Hungarian Jew is indeed a Jew. A Hungarian Jew is also, by definition, Hungarian. Your insistence that Estonian Jews don't count as "part of the Estonian nation" is flat-out anti-Semitism.

So, let's get this straight. You have a nation with a language, a culture and a main religion. Then, you have a set of people who came there for whatever reason, speak a different language, have a separate culture, eat different food. They are the same nation?

[Conscentia]

Okay, so you get mad about how the Communists killed Estonians after the war, but then say that the Estonians got their own SS division and were just killing collaborators? That is the exact same excuse you hear from the most hardcore Stalinists about the massacres of Estonians (that they were all Nazi collaborators).

Well unlike the Germans, the Soviets killed Estonians before, during, and after the war. You know, I'm sure that if the Germans had won, I'd be mad at the Germans. But, they didn't win.

No-one's telling you not to be mad at the Soviets. Only that the Nazis wouldn't have been better.

[Jumalariik]

Well, Jews are culturally separate from other Europeans, are they not? I mean a Hungarian Jew is a Jew, unless they are completely assimilated. And Communists were just traitors to any nation in Eastern Europe.

Jews are Jews. They are also a member of whatever nationality they were born into.

Sure, but not the same ethnicity.

[Jumalariik]

Well unlike the Germans, the Soviets killed Estonians before, during, and after the war. You know, I'm sure that if the Germans had won, I'd be mad at the Germans. But, they didn't win.

No-one's telling you not to be mad at the Nazis. Only that the Nazis wouldn't have been better.

Sure. It does get a bit grating that Western culture views the Nazis as super evil robots while the soviets are not exactly hated to the same degree. There are movies showing bolshevists as heroes but all films with nazis make them seem evil.

[Renewed Imperial Germany]

Jews are Jews. They are also a member of whatever nationality they were born into.

Sure, but not the same ethnicity.

Fine I will concede the point that under a narrow definition of ethnicity Jews are not ethnically anything but Jews, although I think that is a very narrow statement, and meaningless when we start talking about people who are Jewish by religion but not by ethnicity.

However, are Estonian Communists who's parents are both Estonian, who were born and raised in Estonia, not ethnically Estonian?

[Old Tyrannia]

I've never advocated the mistreatment or marginalisation of LGBT people, and people committing suicide because of bullying, whilst awful, is not comparable to the government actively executing thousands of people for their political beliefs. You're just grasping at straws.

I'm not grasping at straws. Traditionalist policies, maybe not yours, but those of many people who call themselves "Traditional Conservatives" (at least in the US) actively enable the kind of behaviors that lead to the marginalization of LGBT people. Support for things like legal conversion therapy and opposition to measures to give LGBT people protections such as through Title IX, the Civil Rights Act, and even one example of a "Traditional Conservative" (Ted Cruz) opposing the renewal of the Violence Against Women Act because it was going to be amended to include LGBT couples actively breed a society in which LGBT people can be harassed and bullied without consequence.

Still not quite the same as state-sanctioned and perpetrated mass murder. LGBT people have been persecuted throughout history, under all sorts of governments and regimes. In the 21st century US, LGBT people are relatively well off, and that is even more so here in the UK. I do not advocate or tolerate- nor have I ever advocated or tolerated- the abuse of people because of their sexuality, but the fact is that LGBT people are a small minority of the population and their plight in modern Western countries is not nearly such a big issue as to merit comparison with the Reign of Terror under the Comité de salut public or the republican atrocities in the Vendée.