Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[Morr]

Do you see any difference in trajectory, here?

As I said, you are drawing the trend lines wrong, thank you for the proof. I notice you still did not respond to the edit

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality.

But exactly "why" isn't stated.

[Pandeeria]

Exactly, it's authoritarian and stupid.

Why is it authoritarian to ban a practice that is harmful and doesn't work?

Eating junk food is harmful. Smoking and drinking are harmful. There are plenty of practices that are harmful, and virtually all can be potentially harmful. That doesn't mean we should ban them.

You can decide what to do with your own body. But others can decide what to do with theirs.

[Neutraligon]

As I said, you are drawing the trend lines wrong, thank you for the proof. I notice you still did not respond to the edit

But exactly "why" isn't stated.

Which is why you cannot claim that the cause is transition. All we have right now is that there seems to be a difference in a small nation (notice this is only for Sweden). Notice that this study took place when treatment for trans individuals was changing. The study is only suggesting that transition is not sufficient to help improve health outcomes to equal the general population.

oops I misread that, yes it is explicitly stated. You really should read the entire study before making these things up.

[Morr]

But exactly "why" isn't stated.

Which is why you cannot claim that the cause is transition.

Exactly why such an interpretation can't be made isn't stated, I mean.

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

Exactly, it's authoritarian and stupid.

Why is it authoritarian to ban a practice that is harmful and doesn't work?

Banning things is authoritarian when you do them to yourself or to someone who consented to it. I would argue that people undergoing conversion therapy seldom do it because they wanted to, but because they had to due to other people pressuring and bullying them.

[Neutraligon]

Which is why you cannot claim that the cause is transition.

Exactly why such an interpretation can't be made isn't stated, I mean.

Yet you claimed that transition was harmful and then linked to this study, which does not support your point. This study only suggest what we already know, that trans individuals tend to have health and mental health issues at a greater rate than the non trans population. It does not say that transition does not help, it just suggests it is not sufficient to make them equal. It does not suggest a cause of such a difference. It does not suggest a solution for such a difference. It only shows there is a difference.

[San Lumen]

Why is it authoritarian to ban a practice that is harmful and doesn't work?

Banning things is authoritarian when you do them to yourself or to someone who consented to it. I would argue that people undergoing conversion therapy seldom do it because they wanted to, but because they had to due to other people pressuring and bullying them.

so then why shouldn;t it be outlawed to prevent harm to minors who are unable to give consent and refuse the practice?

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

Banning things is authoritarian when you do them to yourself or to someone who consented to it. I would argue that people undergoing conversion therapy seldom do it because they wanted to, but because they had to due to other people pressuring and bullying them.

so then why shouldn;t it be outlawed to prevent harm to minors who are unable to give consent and refuse the practice?

Then it wouldn't be authoritarian. Honestly, it doesn't really matter in this case. Just ban the whole thing.

[Morr]

Exactly why such an interpretation can't be made isn't stated, I mean.

Yet you claimed that transition was harmful and then linked to this study, which does not support your point. This study only suggest what we already know, that trans individuals tend to have health and mental health issues at a greater rate than the non trans population. It does not say that transition does not help, it just suggests it is not sufficient to make them equal. It does not suggest a cause of such a difference. It does not suggest a solution for such a difference. It only shows there is a difference.

Transition obviously doesn't help after the ten year mark. If it did, it would decrease the suicide rate, not double it. If it mitigated the suicide rate but didn't abrogate it, then it would be helpful but not sufficient. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about an increase, and an enormous one at that.

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

Yet you claimed that transition was harmful and then linked to this study, which does not support your point. This study only suggest what we already know, that trans individuals tend to have health and mental health issues at a greater rate than the non trans population. It does not say that transition does not help, it just suggests it is not sufficient to make them equal. It does not suggest a cause of such a difference. It does not suggest a solution for such a difference. It only shows there is a difference.

Transition obviously doesn't help after the ten year mark. If it did, it would decrease the suicide rate, not double it. If it mitigated the suicide rate but didn't abrogate it, then it would be helpful but not sufficient. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about an increase, and an enormous one at that.

Firstly, I cannot see how this is relevant to the topic in question. Secondly, Never mind that, thought I was in a thread I wasn't in. Regardless, that is due to people bullying them. There, solved that mystery once and for all for you.

[Great Nepal]

Which is why you cannot claim that the cause is transition.

Exactly why such an interpretation can't be made isn't stated, I mean.

Of course it is

For the purpose of evaluating the safety of sex reassignment in terms of morbidity and mortality, however, it is reasonable to compare sex reassigned persons with matched population controls. The caveat with this design is that transsexual persons before sex reassignment might differ from healthy controls (although this bias can be statistically corrected for by adjusting for baseline differences). It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia.[39], [40] This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.

Banning things is authoritarian when you do them to yourself or to someone who consented to it. I would argue that people undergoing conversion therapy seldom do it because they wanted to, but because they had to due to other people pressuring and bullying them.

so then why shouldn;t it be outlawed to prevent harm to minors who are unable to give consent and refuse the practice?

Are you selectively ignoring responses which put a dampener on your "BUT THE CHILDREN!!!" and complete misrepresentation's of consent routine?

[The Snazzylands]

What if it was used on pedophiles, zoophiles, sexual sadists and the like? Would it be acceptable then?

[Neutraligon]

Yet you claimed that transition was harmful and then linked to this study, which does not support your point. This study only suggest what we already know, that trans individuals tend to have health and mental health issues at a greater rate than the non trans population. It does not say that transition does not help, it just suggests it is not sufficient to make them equal. It does not suggest a cause of such a difference. It does not suggest a solution for such a difference. It only shows there is a difference.

Transition obviously doesn't help after the ten year mark. If it did, it would decrease the suicide rate, not double it. If it mitigated the suicide rate but didn't abrogate it, then it would be helpful but not sufficient. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about an increase, and an enormous one at that.

For the first part, there is no evidence of this fact in the study, only that it is not sufficient to make the trans population equal to the rest of the population. All the study shows is that right now, with the society we have, it is not sufficient. We cannot say there is no result after 10 years because again the study makes no comparison between transitioned trans individuals and non transitioned trans individuals. You are still misunderstanding what the graphs and tables have said. I did not need to read the weakness section to know that you cannot make a claim as to the effectiveness of transition as a treatment because they did not compare to an appropriate control group.

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

What if it was used on pedophiles, zoophiles, sexual sadists and the like? Would it be acceptable then?

Possibly, seeing how society views them. Chemical castration is already a thing for rapists. I'm not sure about pedophiles though.

[Neutraligon]

What if it was used on pedophiles, zoophiles, sexual sadists and the like? Would it be acceptable then?

Possibly, seeing how society views them. Chemical castration is already a thing for rapists. I'm not sure about pedophiles though.

Not all pedophiles act on their desires. Also, only when they have consented.

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

Possibly, seeing how society views them. Chemical castration is already a thing for rapists. I'm not sure about pedophiles though.

Not all pedophiles act on their desires. Also, only when they have consented.

I know how to separate child rapists and pedophiles.

[Ashmoria]

Why is it authoritarian to ban a practice that is harmful and doesn't work?

Eating junk food is harmful. Smoking and drinking are harmful. There are plenty of practices that are harmful, and virtually all can be potentially harmful. That doesn't mean we should ban them.

You can decide what to do with your own body. But others can decide what to do with theirs.

what is banned isn't GETTING the therapy its OFFERING the therapy. just as you can ...eat as many peach pits as you want but *I* cant sell you laetrile in a scam cancer cure. scammers SHOULD be barred from offering "cures" that don't work.

[Zoice]

Yet you claimed that transition was harmful and then linked to this study, which does not support your point. This study only suggest what we already know, that trans individuals tend to have health and mental health issues at a greater rate than the non trans population. It does not say that transition does not help, it just suggests it is not sufficient to make them equal. It does not suggest a cause of such a difference. It does not suggest a solution for such a difference. It only shows there is a difference.

Transition obviously doesn't help after the ten year mark. If it did, it would decrease the suicide rate, not double it. If it mitigated the suicide rate but didn't abrogate it, then it would be helpful but not sufficient. But we aren't talking about that, we're talking about an increase, and an enormous one at that.

The bolded is LITERALLY exactly what the study concludes. How have you failed to realize that?

[The Overlords New Equestria]

If it's not doing its job, and is in fact harmful, then it should be banned.

But what's the alternative? How would a gay person become straight if they didn't want to be gay?

[Zoice]

If it's not doing its job, and is in fact harmful, then it should be banned.

But what's the alternative? How would a gay person become straight if they didn't want to be gay?

There's no way to force that.

[LaVeyan Stirnerite Randroids]

If it's not doing its job, and is in fact harmful, then it should be banned.

But what's the alternative? How would a gay person become straight if they didn't want to be gay?

They should first of all give up their labels and explore their sexuality to find more out about themselves before adopting new labels. There aren't purely gay or purely straight people except in the fantasies of people having lived too long in a Christianity-dominated society and culture. If that doesn't please other people, maybe those people aren't the sort the person might want to hang out with.

[Grenartia]

1. Neither of those things are inherently dependent on being straight.
2. Except, it can't be changed. Like, that's psychological fact. Also, I have serious misgivings regarding the ability for 99.9% of people who say they want to go through with it, to actually provide informed, uncoerced consent.
3. Apples and footballs.

If you think sexual orientation is an immutable psychological fact, then why don't you think gender is as well?

Who said I didn't?

[Grenartia]

That has literally nothing to do with this topic. Everybody in this thread is dumber for having read that. I award you no points. May God have mercy on your soul.

If you can't see it for the sarcasm it is, may Odin have mercy on your soul
I'm fucking Estonian.

Then I congratulate you for trolling so successfully as to appear to be genuine.

[Grenartia]

Just ban it so that people can't coerce other people to go through it by peer pressure, ostracism, bullying or some other way. It being legal is an excuse for people to do it in the first place.

Exactly.

[Grenartia]

I have no need to draw the trend lines myself. Again you are wrong. Again did you notice my edit? If not here it is again


You are using a study in a way they specifically stated it should not be used. You are making assumptions about how suicide work and when it occurs. You are failing to look at trend lines appropriately.

Do you see any difference in trajectory, here?

You said there was an increase. That is quite blatantly a decrease. Either you're being intellectually dishonest, or you don't know how to read a graph.