Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[Dinake]

1. But what are the alternatives you speak of? 2. Are you not suggesting homosexuality is something that can be cured? 3. because it can't.

1. There are multiple ways one can reconcile one's religion with one's sexual orientation and/or gender identity, all without paying somebody to torture you.

I second this motion, and I am a bisexual member of one of the most conservative faiths out there.

[Pandeeria]

For those who don't know conversion therapy is a pseudoscience to change one's sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual . The methods involve things like electric shock and other things. There are also several different forms like behavioral modification and reparative therapy. There is absolutely no proof that it works and is instead harmful. It has been outlawed in California, Oregon, Illinois, New Jersey and Washington DC. It should be outlawed nationwide as its harmful and abusive and doesn't work. Being gay isn't a choice and not something you can change. What do you all think?

Yes, it should be banned. It doesn't work.

Fuck the rights of a consenting adult. They shouldn't be able to decide what to do with their own body. Amirite?

[Dinake]

Yes, it should be banned. It doesn't work.

Fuck the rights of a consenting adult. They shouldn't be able to decide what to do with their own body. Amirite?

Except advertising it is a form of fraud. Conversion therapy doesn't work at all.
You want to talk to your spiritual director about how to minimize the impact of your SSA? Be my guest. But claiming you can change it is fraud.

[Morr]

Suicide rate for non-transitioned individuals is ten times that of cis.

That does not say anything about the suicide rate of non transitioned trans individuals.

Yes it does. The suicide rate for non-transitional trans individuals is ten times that of cis individuals.

[Morr]

That does not say anything about the suicide rate of non transitioned trans individuals.

Yes it does. The suicide rate for non-transitional trans individuals is ten times that of cis individuals.

http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf

When a trans person undergoes transition, their likelihood of suicide drops down to about normal, but then after about ten years it starts to shoot up until it reaches 19:1 ratio to cis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

[Neutraligon]

That does not say anything about the suicide rate of non transitioned trans individuals.

Yes it does. The suicide rate for non-transitional trans individuals is ten times that of cis individuals.

And now we compare that to transitioned trans individuals. Is it higher for transitioned trans individuals or non transitioned trans individuals. Comparing post transitioned trans individuals to cis individuals is kinda useless to determining if transition is harmful. For that matter, comparing post transitioned to non transitioned trans individuals is kinda also useless, namely because factors such as discrimination have not been ruled out as the cause of the suicide attempt.

[Morr]

Yes it does. The suicide rate for non-transitional trans individuals is ten times that of cis individuals.

And now we compare that to transitioned trans individuals. Is it higher for transitioned trans individuals or non transitioned trans individuals. Comparing post transitioned trans individuals to cis individuals is kinda useless to determining if transition is harmful.

It's higher for non-transitioned, until about ten years after transition, after which it starts to climb to the point that it practically doubles not transitional transpersons.

[Pandeeria]

Fuck the rights of a consenting adult. They shouldn't be able to decide what to do with their own body. Amirite?

Except advertising it is a form of fraud. Conversion therapy doesn't work at all.
You want to talk to your spiritual director about how to minimize the impact of your SSA? Be my guest. But claiming you can change it is fraud.

I'm pretty sure when people are signing up for it, there probably is some disclaimer in the fine print stating there is no scientific evidence that it works.

Even then, there are still plenty of people ashamed of being homosexual that would attempt conversion therapy even if it doesn't work.

[Morr]

namely because factors such as discrimination have not been ruled out as the cause of the suicide attempt.

But to those factors don't take ten years to kick in.

[Neutraligon]

Yes it does. The suicide rate for non-transitional trans individuals is ten times that of cis individuals.

http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf

When a trans person undergoes transition, their likelihood of suicide drops down to about normal, but then after about ten years it starts to shoot up until it reaches 19:1 ratio to cis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

The study does not say that transition is harmful, try again.

Have you ever spoken to someone who has lost a great deal of weight? They tend to still see themselves as fat, even if they are no so. Psychological issues that happened before transition (other than dysphoria) would likely still persist after transition.

[Dinake]

Except advertising it is a form of fraud. Conversion therapy doesn't work at all.
You want to talk to your spiritual director about how to minimize the impact of your SSA? Be my guest. But claiming you can change it is fraud.

I'm pretty sure when people are signing up for it, there probably is some disclaimer in the fine print stating there is no scientific evidence that it works.

Even then, there are still plenty of people ashamed of being homosexual that would attempt conversion therapy even if it doesn't work.

Exactly. Taking advantage of that is exploitative. I do support research into ways to minimize the impact of SSA, but "hand 'em over to lunatic evangelical pastors with no understanding of either psychology, homosexuality, or theology" is not one.

[Morr]

http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf

When a trans person undergoes transition, their likelihood of suicide drops down to about normal, but then after about ten years it starts to shoot up until it reaches 19:1 ratio to cis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

The study does not say that transition is harmful, try again.

Have you ever spoken to someone who has lost a great deal of weight? They tend to still see themselves as fat, even if they are no so. Psychological issues that happened before transition (other than dysphoria) would likely still persist after transition.

They wouldn't take ten years to kick in, and then suddenly start kicking in gradually but drastically.

[Neon Trotsky]

namely because factors such as discrimination have not been ruled out as the cause of the suicide attempt.

But to those factors don't take ten years to kick in.

I don't see why not.

For example If someone commits suicide because they've been bullied it's not like they do it immediately after the first time it happens, it's generally after the pressure has been building for a while. I don't see why it would be any different in the case of trans people.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Yes, it should be banned. It doesn't work.

Fuck the rights of a consenting adult. They shouldn't be able to decide what to do with their own body. Amirite?

We actually don't let many people do many things with their own body that would hurt them.

[Neutraligon]

Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

The study does not say that transition is harmful, try again.

Have you ever spoken to someone who has lost a great deal of weight? They tend to still see themselves as fat, even if they are no so. Psychological issues that happened before transition (other than dysphoria) would likely still persist after transition.

They wouldn't take ten years to kick in, and then suddenly start kicking in gradually but drastically.

Why would it be drastic. Typically people have different breaking points. As time goes on the pressure caused by the mental conditions (which may or may have not been somewhat relieved by transition) continues to grow until they reach that point at which time they consider and attempt suicide.

[Morr]

They wouldn't take ten years to kick in, and then suddenly start kicking in gradually but drastically.

Why would it be drastic. Typically people have different breaking points. As time goes on the pressure caused by the mental conditions (which may or may have not been somewhat relieved by transition) continues to grow until they reach that point at which time they consider and attempt suicide.

That seems really unlikely. If that were the case, the suicide rate wouldn't take ten years to start rising, but would keep rising gradually from transition. Instead, transition and the ten years following, the suicide rates are far lower (indeed, this is why sex changes are accepted as treatment by the medical community). If we're assuming that bullying and so on rise drastically after transition, and that they are the cause of the suicide, then certainly suicide is not going to drastically decrease after transition and for ten years. The first two years following post op is when alienation is at its pitch, all the friends that are going to ditch you do so then, you don't necessarily have a trans community you're a part of. After ten years, you're much more likely to have a new set of supportive friends and be in touch with the trans community. Sure, there's still bullying, but you also have an awful lot more support. It just doesn't make sense that the first years, when bullying is the worse, has by far the lowest suicide rates, and furthermore that the rates don't rise gradually from then, but jump suddenly at ten years and then keep jumping after that until they reach the 19:1 ratio.

[Grenartia]

1. There are multiple ways one can reconcile one's religion with one's sexual orientation and/or gender identity, all without paying somebody to torture you.

2. Look at my signature, and give me one good reason why I would say anything like that at all.

3. In other news, the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

1. What if someone is religious and wants to have a family and so on, and so they want to be straight? 2. Paying to have your psychology converted is some crime? 3. But if someone wants to be a different sex, having physical surgery performed on them and different hormones pumped into them is perfectly alright?

What gives?

1. Neither of those things are inherently dependent on being straight.
2. Except, it can't be changed. Like, that's psychological fact. Also, I have serious misgivings regarding the ability for 99.9% of people who say they want to go through with it, to actually provide informed, uncoerced consent.
3. Apples and footballs.

[Grenartia]

Why outlaw sex changes, something which causes no harm.

Considering it raises the likelihood of suicide after ten years, I'd say it does.

That's actually been shown to be a right-wing lie.

[Morr]

1. What if someone is religious and wants to have a family and so on, and so they want to be straight? 2. Paying to have your psychology converted is some crime? 3. But if someone wants to be a different sex, having physical surgery performed on them and different hormones pumped into them is perfectly alright?

What gives?

1. Neither of those things are inherently dependent on being straight.
2. Except, it can't be changed. Like, that's psychological fact. Also, I have serious misgivings regarding the ability for 99.9% of people who say they want to go through with it, to actually provide informed, uncoerced consent.
3. Apples and footballs.

If you think sexual orientation is an immutable psychological fact, then why don't you think gender is as well?

[Lucipurr]

Why outlaw sex changes, something which causes no harm.

Considering it raises the likelihood of suicide after ten years, I'd say it does.

Yeah, that's complete bullshit.

[Great Nepal]

Fuck the rights of a consenting adult. They shouldn't be able to decide what to do with their own body. Amirite?

Except advertising it is a form of fraud. Conversion therapy doesn't work at all.
You want to talk to your spiritual director about how to minimize the impact of your SSA? Be my guest. But claiming you can change it is fraud.

Take them to civil court for false advertising; and if there is further evidence of fraud bring criminal charges against them for fraud by failure to disclose; like would be the case for any other business Why exactly are we introducing specific legislation against conversion therapy again?

[Neutraligon]

Why would it be drastic. Typically people have different breaking points. As time goes on the pressure caused by the mental conditions (which may or may have not been somewhat relieved by transition) continues to grow until they reach that point at which time they consider and attempt suicide.

That seems really unlikely. If that were the case, the suicide rate wouldn't take ten years to start rising, but would keep rising gradually from transition. Instead, transition and the ten years following, the suicide rates are far lower (indeed, this is why sex changes are accepted as treatment by the medical community). If we're assuming that bullying and so on rise drastically after transition, and that they are the cause of the suicide, then certainly suicide is not going to drastically decrease after transition and for ten years. The first two years following post op is when alienation is at its pitch, all the friends that are going to ditch you do so then, you don't necessarily have a trans community you're a part of. After ten years, you're much more likely to have a new set of supportive friends and be in touch with the trans community. Sure, there's still bullying, but you also have an awful lot more support. It just doesn't make sense that the first years, when bullying is the worse, has by far the lowest suicide rates, and furthermore that the rates don't rise gradually from then, but jump suddenly at ten years and then keep jumping after that until they reach the 19:1 ratio.

Umm, the graph shows it did go gradually, with enough of a difference at 10 years to show divergence...You are making a lot of claims right there, care to back them all up.

[Narintia]

USA is a christian state. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT LEAVE WE WASP* BUILT AMERICA
*White Anglo-Saxon Protestant

That has literally nothing to do with this topic. Everybody in this thread is dumber for having read that. I award you no points. May God have mercy on your soul.

If you can't see it for the sarcasm it is, may Odin have mercy on your soul
I'm fucking Estonian.

[Rodrania]

It should be legal! Slay the gay 2015 and pffftHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NAH, I CAN'T DO IT.

It should be illegal, both if the "patient" is voluntarily joining it or no, as it's not really humanitarian.

[Pandeeria]

It should be legal! Slay the gay 2015 and pffftHAHAHAHAHAHAHA NAH, I CAN'T DO IT.

It should be illegal, both if the "patient" is voluntarily joining it or no, as it's not really humanitarian.

It's not really humanitarian to stop a consenting adult from doing something they want to do.