Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[San Lumen]

People have a right to preach any quack nonsense they want.
Otherwise Scientology would be banned too.

People don't have a right to defraud. Which is why Scientology is banned in some places, and should be banned in more.

Exactly Ponzi schemes and Pyramid Schemes are banned and Scientology is a cult. Plus this is harmful and does ABSOLUTELY no good and causes NOTHING but harm. I don't see why it should be completely banned.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

For those who don't know conversion therapy is a pseudoscience to change one's sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual . The methods involve things like electric shock and other things. There are also several different forms like behavioral modification and reparative therapy. There is absolutely no proof that it works and is instead harmful. It has been outlawed in California, Oregon, Illinois, New Jersey and Washington DC. It should be outlawed nationwide as its harmful and abusive and doesn't work. Being gay isn't a choice and not something you can change. What do you all think?

Yes, it should be banned. It doesn't work.

[Neutraligon]

I did.

I also read the other parts of the paper to make sure that I didn't just misinterpret one graph.

The suicide rates are not just partially improved by surgery. They actually start to shoot through the roof ten years later. After reassignment surgery, their suicide rate becomes close to normal (]pre-op transsexuals are about ten times more likely to commit suicide: http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf 40% of pre-op trans attempt suicide, compared with 4% of cis). But ten years after post-op, it starts to escalate to the point that transsexuals are 19 times more likely to commit suicide. Meaning that gender reassignment surgery provides a benefit of only ten years, before it leads to a worsening condition.

Did the study mention that the deaths were suicide. The graph showed all deaths.

[Arkinesia]

Involuntary conversion therapy, yes.

Voluntary stupidity, however, I can't support that.

[Morr]

The suicide rates are not just partially improved by surgery. They actually start to shoot through the roof ten years later. After reassignment surgery, their suicide rate becomes close to normal (]pre-op transsexuals are about ten times more likely to commit suicide: http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf 40% of pre-op trans attempt suicide, compared with 4% of cis). But ten years after post-op, it starts to escalate to the point that transsexuals are 19 times more likely to commit suicide. Meaning that gender reassignment surgery provides a benefit of only ten years, before it leads to a worsening condition.

Did the study mention that the deaths were suicide. The graph showed all deaths.

That chart depicts all deaths, but the figure I'm talking about is strictly suicide, which is 19 times higher according to Table 2.

[Escanthea]

People don't have a right to defraud. Which is why Scientology is banned in some places, and should be banned in more.

Exactly Ponzi schemes and Pyramid Schemes are banned and Scientology is a cult. Plus this is harmful and does ABSOLUTELY no good and causes NOTHING but harm. I don't see why it should be completely banned.

Because people have a right to be stupid.

[San Lumen]

Exactly Ponzi schemes and Pyramid Schemes are banned and Scientology is a cult. Plus this is harmful and does ABSOLUTELY no good and causes NOTHING but harm. I don't see why it should be completely banned.

Because people have a right to be stupid.

but people under 18 don't have the ability to give consent so if their parents force them into it they have no choice.

[Great Nepal]

Because people have a right to be stupid.

but people under 18 don't have the ability to give consent so if their parents force them into it they have no choice.

How many times have you said this only to be given the same set of answers: under 18s can't consent, forcing someone into it would not be giving consent, it only applies when individual gives informed consent (which minors cant do)?

[Morr]

but people under 18 don't have the ability to give consent so if their parents force them into it they have no choice.

How many times have you said this only to be given the same set of answers: under 18s can't consent, forcing someone into it would not be giving consent, it only applies when individual gives informed consent (which minors cant do)?

Then they shouldn't be able to consent to sex-reassignment either.

[Great Nepal]

How many times have you said this only to be given the same set of answers: under 18s can't consent, forcing someone into it would not be giving consent, it only applies when individual gives informed consent (which minors cant do)?

Then they shouldn't be able to consent to sex-reassignment either.

Of course; they can't consent to anything be it buying a pen, conversion therapy or sex-reassignment surgery - that's the whole point behind them being minors.

[San Lumen]

Then they shouldn't be able to consent to sex-reassignment either.

Of course; they can't consent to anything be it buying a pen, conversion therapy or sex-reassignment surgery - that's the whole point behind them being minors.

the point is their parents are forcing them into and they do not have the legal capability to say no. I get that. Why should a parent be able to subject a teen to harmful practice which could have long term ramifications. And who cares if they are consenting adults? Its a harmful practice that doesn't work. I don't care about individual freedom in this case.

[Great Nepal]

Of course; they can't consent to anything be it buying a pen, conversion therapy or sex-reassignment surgery - that's the whole point behind them being minors.

the point is their parents are forcing them into and they do not have the legal capability to say no. I get that. Why should a parent be able to subject a teen to harmful practice which could have long term ramifications.

No you are getting wrong end of the stick all together - the individual has to consent, not their parent, not their guardian but themselves in their personal capacity need to give their informed consent to the procedure. Since minors are unable to give that consent, they can't undergo conversion therapy, regardless of what their parents think.

And who cares if they are consenting adults? Its a harmful practice that doesn't work. I don't care about individual freedom in this case.

Alcohol is harmful. Junk food is also harmful. Cigarettes are harmful to yourself and others around you. Driving cars caries a risk of harm, so does sky diving. Part of being an adult is deciding what risks and what harm you wish to undertake and which you dont, there are laws which require sufficient disclosure of harm and risk but ultimately its the adult that is responsible for their actions and any harm that results from it.
What gives you the right to prevent adult from undertaking that harmful activity with knowledge of its harmfulness?

[Zoice]

the point is their parents are forcing them into and they do not have the legal capability to say no. I get that. Why should a parent be able to subject a teen to harmful practice which could have long term ramifications.

No you are getting wrong end of the stick all together - the individual has to consent, not their parent, not their guardian but themselves in their personal capacity need to give their informed consent to the procedure. Since minors are unable to give that consent, they can't undergo conversion therapy, regardless of what their parents think.

And who cares if they are consenting adults? Its a harmful practice that doesn't work. I don't care about individual freedom in this case.

Alcohol is harmful. Junk food is also harmful. Cigarettes are harmful to yourself and others around you. Driving cars caries a risk of harm, so does sky diving. Part of being an adult is deciding what risks and what harm you wish to undertake and which you dont, there are laws which require sufficient disclosure of harm and risk but ultimately its the adult that is responsible for their actions and any harm that results from it.
What gives you the right to prevent adult from undertaking that harmful activity with knowledge of its harmfulness?

That's part of the problem. I don't think that informed consent is there.

[Great Nepal]

No you are getting wrong end of the stick all together - the individual has to consent, not their parent, not their guardian but themselves in their personal capacity need to give their informed consent to the procedure. Since minors are unable to give that consent, they can't undergo conversion therapy, regardless of what their parents think.


Alcohol is harmful. Junk food is also harmful. Cigarettes are harmful to yourself and others around you. Driving cars caries a risk of harm, so does sky diving. Part of being an adult is deciding what risks and what harm you wish to undertake and which you dont, there are laws which require sufficient disclosure of harm and risk but ultimately its the adult that is responsible for their actions and any harm that results from it.
What gives you the right to prevent adult from undertaking that harmful activity with knowledge of its harmfulness?

That's part of the problem. I don't think that informed consent is there.

I'm fairly sure any contracts they sign, does disclose risks and results - if not frankly there's bigger issue that need to be legislated on general basis.

[Grenartia]

I believe you have misread my post. I am referring to alternatives to the torture, not being gay.

1. But what are the alternatives you speak of? 2. Are you not suggesting homosexuality is something that can be cured? 3. because it can't.

1. There are multiple ways one can reconcile one's religion with one's sexual orientation and/or gender identity, all without paying somebody to torture you.

2. Look at my signature, and give me one good reason why I would say anything like that at all.

3. In other news, the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

[Morr]

1. But what are the alternatives you speak of? 2. Are you not suggesting homosexuality is something that can be cured? 3. because it can't.

1. There are multiple ways one can reconcile one's religion with one's sexual orientation and/or gender identity, all without paying somebody to torture you.

2. Look at my signature, and give me one good reason why I would say anything like that at all.

3. In other news, the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

What if someone is religious and wants to have a family and so on, and so they want to be straight? Paying to have your psychology converted is some crime? But if someone wants to be a different sex, having physical surgery performed on them and different hormones pumped into them is perfectly alright?

What gives?

[San Lumen]

1. There are multiple ways one can reconcile one's religion with one's sexual orientation and/or gender identity, all without paying somebody to torture you.

2. Look at my signature, and give me one good reason why I would say anything like that at all.

3. In other news, the Earth is an oblate spheroid.

What if someone is religious and wants to have a family and so on, and so they want to be straight? Paying to have your psychology converted is some crime? But if someone wants to be a different sex, having physical surgery performed on them and different hormones pumped into them is perfectly alright?

What gives?

whether your gay or straight cannot be changed. Conversion therapy has been proven to not work. I see nothing wrong with sex changes but that's not the topic of this thread.

[Morr]

What if someone is religious and wants to have a family and so on, and so they want to be straight? Paying to have your psychology converted is some crime? But if someone wants to be a different sex, having physical surgery performed on them and different hormones pumped into them is perfectly alright?

What gives?

whether your gay or straight cannot be changed. Conversion therapy has been proven to not work. I see nothing wrong with sex changes but that's not the topic of this thread.

Conversion therapy factors in Bible thumper therapy run by people with probably zero clinical expertise, of course it generally doesn't work.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

People don't have a right to defraud. Which is why Scientology is banned in some places, and should be banned in more.

Exactly Ponzi schemes and Pyramid Schemes are banned and Scientology is a cult. Plus this is harmful and does ABSOLUTELY no good and causes NOTHING but harm. I don't see why it should be completely banned.

Life is fucking harmful. Your reasoning on every thread you've posted is "I wouldn't do it and think it's bad so ban it." In this case, there's more of an argument to be made than others (i.e. cigarettes), but I still don't think people exercising a right to be stupid should be outlawed.

[Staythefout]

Only if they outlaw sex changes first but that won't happen if people who oppose conversion get their way.

[Neutraligon]

Only if they outlaw sex changes first but that won't happen if people who oppose conversion get their way.

Why outlaw sex changes, something which causes no harm.

[Morr]

Only if they outlaw sex changes first but that won't happen if people who oppose conversion get their way.

Why outlaw sex changes, something which causes no harm.

Considering it raises the likelihood of suicide after ten years, I'd say it does.

[Neutraligon]

Why outlaw sex changes, something which causes no harm.

Considering it raises the likelihood of suicide after ten years, I'd say it does.

You still have not supported that the transition itself raises the likelihood of suicide. Tell me what are the suicide rates for non-transitioned trans individuals during that time?

[Morr]

Considering it raises the likelihood of suicide after ten years, I'd say it does.

You still have not supported that the transition itself raises the likelihood of suicide. Tell me what are the suicide rates for non-transitioned trans individuals during that time?

Suicide rate for non-transitioned individuals is ten times that of cis.

[Neutraligon]

You still have not supported that the transition itself raises the likelihood of suicide. Tell me what are the suicide rates for non-transitioned trans individuals during that time?

Suicide rate for non-transitioned individuals is ten times that of cis.

That does not say anything about the suicide rate of non transitioned trans individuals.