Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

And? I renounced my claim when I recognized that a minority of homosexuals use surrogacy or sperm banks to have kids.

So do you also renounce your claim that homosexuality causes harm to Western society?

I do not, because the population of homosexuals & heterosexuals that have kids is not high enough - and the ratio is lower for homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

All in all, the birthrate in other countries balances our negative birthrate.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

All in all, the birthrate in other countries balances our negative birthrate.

way overbalances it, actually, which is just as much a problem

[Neutraligon]

So do you also renounce your claim that homosexuality causes harm to Western society?

I do not, because the population of homosexuals & heterosexuals that have kids is not high enough - and the ratio is lower for homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals.

Again please provide a source that homosexual couples have/raise kids at a lower rate than heterosexual couples. Also, seems to me this planet has plenty of people.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Except that quality of life and the general health of a civilization can be observed and measured, unlike morality.

The idea that the health of civilization matters more than the happiness of whoever is destroying it, rests on some incoherent notion of right and wrong.

Since more people depend on the health of their civilization to maintain their quality of life than depend on its destruction, it follows that a healthy civilization is more important.

[Free Reno]

Not for voluntary, consenting adults. But it should definitely be banned for use on minors and people who do not wish to engage in the practice.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

I do not, because the population of homosexuals & heterosexuals that have kids is not high enough - and the ratio is lower for homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals.

Again please provide a source that homosexual couples have/raise kids at a lower rate than heterosexual couples. Also, seems to me this planet has plenty of people.

Not in the west, we don't have plenty of people.

Let me try to explain this to you - homosexual couples have kids at a lower rate than heterosexual couples because they are physically incapable of conceiving children together without a surrogate or sperm donation

[Neutraligon]

Again please provide a source that homosexual couples have/raise kids at a lower rate than heterosexual couples. Also, seems to me this planet has plenty of people.

Not in the west, we don't have plenty of people.

Let me try to explain this to you - homosexual couples have kids at a lower rate than heterosexual couples because they are physically incapable of conceiving children together without a surrogate or sperm donation

I would claim we have plenty of people in the West, especially with immigration. You forgot about adoption. I am still waiting for a source.

[Zoice]

I'm pretty sure that study actually said that transgendered people post surgery are at more risk than the general population, not transgendered people who haven't had surgery.

The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls after about 10 years of follow-up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

The matched pairs were the general population, not other transsexuals that hadn't had surgery.

[Morr]

The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls after about 10 years of follow-up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

The matched pairs were the general population, not other transsexuals that hadn't had surgery.

Ah, but the point is that this high suicide rate didn't kick in until ten years post-op.

[Morr]

The idea that the health of civilization matters more than the happiness of whoever is destroying it, rests on some incoherent notion of right and wrong.

Since more people depend on the health of their civilization to maintain their quality of life than depend on its destruction, it follows that a healthy civilization is more important.

Utilitarianism isn't any more valid than egoism if you're a moral nihilist, and in fact perhaps it is far less valid.

[Zoice]

The matched pairs were the general population, not other transsexuals that hadn't had surgery.

Ah, but the point is that this high suicide rate didn't kick in until ten years post-op.

What? No, that's not what the study looked at. It showed that at followup (avg. 10.4 years later) even having surgery, transsexuals still were at high risk. The point if this study is that gender reassignment surgery isn't enough to eliminate the risk for transsexuals, even after surgery they're still in danger.

[Morr]

Ah, but the point is that this high suicide rate didn't kick in until ten years post-op.

What? No, that's not what the study looked at. It showed that at followup (avg. 10.4 years later) even having surgery, transsexuals still were at high risk. The point if this study is that gender reassignment surgery isn't enough to eliminate the risk for transsexuals, even after surgery they're still in danger.

Please read this one word at a time

The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls after about 10 years of follow-up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

[Parhe]

I think it should be allowed. The government shouldn't restrict how people spend their money so long as it does not have advertising effects on other people.

I'll read the whole thread now.

Why should it be allowed? it doesn't work and is harmful.

Reread my post, I specifically said why. If you want to respond, explain why you believe people should not be allowed to harm themselves, overriding their freedom of choice.

Because it should be no one's business if one wants to harm him or herself. Also I just noticed I did not say it in the above post, so I should say now I think it should only be allowed if the adult in question wants to. An individual choosing to get conversion therapy does no harm to anyone else. I mean, we don't go out banning sadomasochism.

Before you respond to me with some drug like heroin, I also think those should be allowed for consenting adults. I also support state assisted suicide, regardless of the individual's physical health. I have a very open idea of what people should be allowed to do to themselves.

[Zoice]

What? No, that's not what the study looked at. It showed that at followup (avg. 10.4 years later) even having surgery, transsexuals still were at high risk. The point if this study is that gender reassignment surgery isn't enough to eliminate the risk for transsexuals, even after surgery they're still in danger.

Please read this one word at a time

The Kaplan-Meier curve (Figure 1) suggests that survival of transsexual persons started to diverge from that of matched controls after about 10 years of follow-up.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Yes, so by 10 years, they had diverged enough from the pairs that were specifically matched to be similar to them. So, 10 years after surgery, surgery still isn't enough and the problem remains to some extent. The study shows that surgery isn't enough, and transsexuals still need more care.

[The Black Forrest]

Why should it be allowed? it doesn't work and is harmful.

Reread my post, I specifically said why. If you want to respond, explain why you believe people should not be allowed to harm themselves, overriding their freedom of choice.

Because it should be no one's business if one wants to harm him or herself. Also I just noticed I did not say it in the above post, so I should say now I think it should only be allowed if the adult in question wants to. An individual choosing to get conversion therapy does no harm to anyone else. I mean, we don't go out banning sadomasochism.

Before you respond to me with some drug like heroin, I also think those should be allowed for consenting adults. I also support state assisted suicide, regardless of the individual's physical health. I have a very open idea of what people should be allowed to do to themselves.

Freedoms are never absolute; nor should they be.

State of mind comes into play.

[Parhe]

Reread my post, I specifically said why. If you want to respond, explain why you believe people should not be allowed to harm themselves, overriding their freedom of choice.

Because it should be no one's business if one wants to harm him or herself. Also I just noticed I did not say it in the above post, so I should say now I think it should only be allowed if the adult in question wants to. An individual choosing to get conversion therapy does no harm to anyone else. I mean, we don't go out banning sadomasochism.

Before you respond to me with some drug like heroin, I also think those should be allowed for consenting adults. I also support state assisted suicide, regardless of the individual's physical health. I have a very open idea of what people should be allowed to do to themselves.

Freedoms are never absolute; nor should they be.

State of mind comes into play.

I agree. It is part of the reason I specified physical health in my latter part, although I admit I should have gone into more detail regarding mental abilities. Unless you believe a person's state of mind has to be questionable to want to undergo conversion therapy and/or wish for suicide. Not going to argue for or against that, I've thought about it (in regards to suicide at least) but never really reached a conclusion.

[The Black Forrest]

Freedoms are never absolute; nor should they be.

State of mind comes into play.

I agree. It is part of the reason I specified physical health in my latter part, although I admit I should have gone into more detail regarding mental abilities. Unless you believe a person's state of mind has to be questionable to want to undergo conversion therapy and/or wish for suicide. Not going to argue for or against that, I've thought about it (in regards to suicide at least) but never really reached a conclusion.

No worries. This is NSG after all. What I write always looks understandable and brilliant to me all the time.

[Morr]

Please read this one word at a time

Yes, so by 10 years, they had diverged enough from the pairs that were specifically matched to be similar to them. So, 10 years after surgery, surgery still isn't enough and the problem remains to some extent. The study shows that surgery isn't enough, and transsexuals still need more care.

Did you actually look at "Figure 1"?

[Zoice]

Yes, so by 10 years, they had diverged enough from the pairs that were specifically matched to be similar to them. So, 10 years after surgery, surgery still isn't enough and the problem remains to some extent. The study shows that surgery isn't enough, and transsexuals still need more care.

Did you actually look at "Figure 1"?

I did.

I also read the other parts of the paper to make sure that I didn't just misinterpret one graph.

Conclusion

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

[Salandriagado]

Conversion Therapy should be outlawed completely, but sexuality can change, it's just not good to force it to change with torture and such.

I don't think people who undergo conversion therapy are forced.

You are factually wrong.

How is it torture?

I've never heard of shock treatment being used in modern conversion therapy. Usually it's just a bunch of praying and "support groups" and shit.

You'd hope, wouldn't you.
(Warning: that document details a lot of disturbing shit that happened, including violent physical, emotional and sexual abuse of minors, in a very personal and explicit way. It's pretty If that is something that might cause problems for you, then don't click the link. This lawsuit describes much the same things, in a more detached way.

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

The western world does not have a problem with a low birthrate. They are beginning to transition from a population level that is both unsustainably high and increasingly surplus to requirements to a more reasonable level. Borderline miraculously, they're doing this without any major disasters.

[Escanthea]

People have a right to preach any quack nonsense they want.
Otherwise Scientology would be banned too.

[Threlizdun]

So do you also renounce your claim that homosexuality causes harm to Western society?

I do not, because the population of homosexuals & heterosexuals that have kids is not high enough - and the ratio is lower for homosexuals than it is for heterosexuals.

We've always had homosexuals and have always managed to have children just fine. Furthermore, production has continued to decrease even with declining birth rates. We don't need to have lots of children, and the idea that we are somehow threatened with a population shortage is absolutely ludicrous. There is no threat posed by homosexuality.

[Zoice]

People have a right to preach any quack nonsense they want.
Otherwise Scientology would be banned too.

People don't have a right to defraud. Which is why Scientology is banned in some places, and should be banned in more.

[Morr]

Did you actually look at "Figure 1"?

I did.

I also read the other parts of the paper to make sure that I didn't just misinterpret one graph.

Conclusion

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

The suicide rates are not just partially improved by surgery. They actually start to shoot through the roof ten years later. After reassignment surgery, their suicide rate becomes close to normal (]pre-op transsexuals are about ten times more likely to commit suicide: http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf 40% of pre-op trans attempt suicide, compared with 4% of cis). But ten years after post-op, it starts to escalate to the point that transsexuals are 19 times more likely to commit suicide. Meaning that gender reassignment surgery provides a benefit of only ten years, before it leads to a worsening condition.