Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

why? Why should we ban sex-reassignment therapy?

[Morr]

It probably doesn't work because it's practiced with reading Bible verses and talking about hellfire, rather than using controlled clinical methods. Even so, just because something is harmful is not cause enough to ban it, cigarettes are legal after all.

What controlled clinical methods are you talking about? You can't cure homosexuality. its not a disease or disorder.

Clinical conditioning.

The whole concept of psychological disorder essentially came as a way for increasingly secular or Protestant governments efforts to address treatment for sinners in the absence of confession to a priest. Sin was defined by the Catholic Church as disordered desire (including acting on it), acting out of order with God (the Latin, Greek and Hebrew words for "sin" all mean "missing the mark", but the English word means a guilt for some crime) something everyone is subject to due to our sinful state; the "treatment" was originally confession and absolution. Confession disappeared, but the idea of "disorder" remained; to cope with that in a secular way, disorders were classified as a form of madness (before that madness, when it wasn't seen as demonic possession, had no stigma attached to it, and even was sometimes see as holy)--you can see this increasingly with criminality been seen as a mental disorder rather than as a form of sin separate from that. And so, the "treatment" of homosexuality was taken by secular interests, and become a clinical matter; homosexuality was no longer just a sin you committed, but something you *were* as a person and could be "cured" of. If you'd like to read works on this, I suggest Madness and Civilization and The History of Sexuality.

[Corunia and Mironor]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

[Wallenburg]

why? Why should we ban sex-reassignment therapy?

It is torture.

[Sunken Island of Rhinomuraena]

How is it torture?

[Morr]

It probably doesn't work because it's practiced with reading Bible verses and talking about hellfire, rather than using controlled clinical methods. Even so, just because something is harmful is not cause enough to ban it, cigarettes are legal after all.

Yet heroin is illegal. What harmful stuff is or isn't legal depends on the politics of the government at the time.

Heroin forms a physical dependency to the point that if you do it too much and totally withdraw at once, it can kill you.

[Morr]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

Is secular morality isn't of any more substance? It's just a set of arbitrary values based on sentiment.

[Dagnia]

I view it the same way as any other form of pseudoscience and voodoo. If you are undergoing the therapy voluntarily, then there shouldn't be a problem. People see psychics, new age healers and witch doctors for reasons as different as relieving pains, emotional issues and even trying to get their eye color changed. I doubt many of them work, but few people are forced to see them. If anyone is being forced to see one, even if it's parents forcing their kid into it, I think the government should step in and remove the kid from the home.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

[Corunia and Mironor]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

Is secular morality isn't of any more substance? It's just a set of arbitrary values based on sentiment.

Secular morality is based on basic human decency and the fact that going around killing people and stealing stuff (and other things) would lead to the collapse of civilization. If the only thing keeping you from going around killing people is fear of burning in hell for all eternity, then you're probably a psychopath

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Is secular morality isn't of any more substance? It's just a set of arbitrary values based on sentiment.

Secular morality is based on basic human decency and the fact that going around killing people and stealing stuff (and other things) would lead to the collapse of civilization. If the only thing keeping you from going around killing people is fear of burning in hell for all eternity, then you're probably a psychopath

adhering to the principles of secular morality that you just outlined, homosexuality should be outlawed because a homosexual civilization would necessarily collapse in one generation's time

this is why all principles of morality are flawed

[Morr]

Is secular morality isn't of any more substance? It's just a set of arbitrary values based on sentiment.

Secular morality is based on basic human decency and the fact that going around killing people and stealing stuff (and other things) would lead to the collapse of civilization. If the only thing keeping you from going around killing people is fear of burning in hell for all eternity, then you're probably a psychopath

The USSR was governed by secular morality, wasn't it?

I'm Orthodox (in the process of becoming, anyway), we don't think hell is some separate place. We think it is the same as heaven, it is being in the presence of God. But the fire and light of God is torture to those who reject God's love, because they hate him or because they are so filled with shame that they'd rather God punish them.

[Morr]

Secular morality is based on basic human decency and the fact that going around killing people and stealing stuff (and other things) would lead to the collapse of civilization. If the only thing keeping you from going around killing people is fear of burning in hell for all eternity, then you're probably a psychopath

adhering to the principles of secular morality that you just outlined, homosexuality should be outlawed because a homosexual civilization would necessarily collapse in one generation's time

this is why all principles of morality are flawed

Are you a moral nihilist?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

adhering to the principles of secular morality that you just outlined, homosexuality should be outlawed because a homosexual civilization would necessarily collapse in one generation's time

this is why all principles of morality are flawed

Are you a moral nihilist?

Yes.

[Neutraligon]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

Where did you get the idea that homosexuals do not voluntarily have kids. Surrogacy and sperm donation are a thing you know. So is adoption.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

Where did you get the idea that homosexuals do not voluntarily have kids. Surrogacy and sperm donation are a thing you know. So is adoption.

Which are, frankly, much less common than the usual method of reproduction. Since genetics contribute to homosexuality to an extent, it follows that we should conduct research to explore whether or not homosexuality can be hereditary.

[Neutraligon]

Where did you get the idea that homosexuals do not voluntarily have kids. Surrogacy and sperm donation are a thing you know. So is adoption.

Which are, frankly, much less common than the usual method of reproduction.

So? What I said clearly shows you to be wrong. So again support your claim that homosexuals do not voluntarily ave kids.

[Morr]

Are you a moral nihilist?

Yes.

Yet you're a nationalist who opposes degeneracy? These concepts hold no more water than moral right and wrong.

[Anollasia]

Yes.

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Which are, frankly, much less common than the usual method of reproduction.

So? What I said clearly shows you to be wrong. So again support your claim that homosexuals do not voluntarily ave kids.

And? I renounced my claim when I recognized that a minority of homosexuals use surrogacy or sperm banks to have kids.

[The Black Forrest]

Of course conversion therapy should be outlawed, it's harmful, doesn't work, and is pointless since changing someone's sexual orientation doesn't affect anything other than who they want to have sex with and have relationships with, and basically the only justification I've seen for conversion therapy (and homophobia in general) is "muh religiums"

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

Really?

I know of a gay man who gave a "donation" so a lesbian couple could have a child. Did they make him do that?

Are people who can't have children harmful to western society?

Do we punish women for miscarriages? What about punishing people who through accident or violence cause another to loose the ability to have children? Is contraception a punishable act? What about vasectomies and Tubal ligation?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

Yes.

Yet you're a nationalist who opposes degeneracy? These concepts hold no more water than moral right and wrong.

Except that quality of life and the general health of a civilization can be observed and measured, unlike morality.

[Morr]

Yet you're a nationalist who opposes degeneracy? These concepts hold no more water than moral right and wrong.

Except that quality of life and the general health of a civilization can be observed and measured, unlike morality.

The idea that the health of civilization matters more than the happiness of whoever is destroying it, rests on some incoherent notion of right and wrong.

[Neutraligon]

So? What I said clearly shows you to be wrong. So again support your claim that homosexuals do not voluntarily ave kids.

And? I renounced my claim when I recognized that a minority of homosexuals use surrogacy or sperm banks to have kids.

So do you also renounce your claim that homosexuality causes harm to Western society?

[The Confederacy of Nationalism]

homosexuals don't have children - at least not voluntarily - and, since the west (plus Japan for that matter) already have issues with low birthrate, it follows that homosexuality, asexuality, and anyone who doesn't have kids are inherently harmful to western societies

Really?

I know of a gay man who gave a "donation" so a lesbian couple could have a child. Did they make him do that?

Are people who can't have children harmful to western society?

Do we punish women for miscarriages? What about punishing people who through accident or violence cause another to loose the ability to have children? Is contraception a punishable act? What about vasectomies and Tubal ligation?

Well, your gay friend is a genuinely good fellow, there's really nothing else I can say.

Yes, people who can't have kids are harmful to western societies (and Japan, and any other nation with a negative population growth rate, for that matter), so long as the deathrate is greater than the birthrate...
However, I never once claimed that we should punish people for it, that'd be more harmful to society.