Should Conversion Therapy Be Outlawed?

[Salandriagado]

1. Sure. Unless you can ensure people using that are giving informed consent, its inherently unjust.

2. And? You say that as if that's the only way it could possibly be unjust.

Modern conversion therapy is a far cry from what it was in the 70's. It's illegal for things like electric shock and forcing you to eat pills that make you sick while watching gay stuff.

I admit I look pretty stupid saying this with nothing solid to back it up, but clearly there must be something in the brain that has to deal with homosexuality. I don't know if I'm right or wrong about it, but I do know that the rates of mental-illness such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, and depression. Some would claim that this is because of the environment that homosexuals are placed in, but that can't be true if these things aren't acquired from the environment.

I've never heard of shock treatment being used in modern conversion therapy. Usually it's just a bunch of praying and "support groups" and shit.

You'd hope, wouldn't you.
(Warning: that document details a lot of disturbing shit that happened, including violent physical, emotional and sexual abuse of minors, in a very personal and explicit way. It's pretty If that is something that might cause problems for you, then don't click the link. This lawsuit describes much the same things, in a more detached way.

You were saying?

[Neutraligon]

Because they do not actual claim to cure anything. Oh and accupuncture needles are covered as devices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatio ... ted_States

Huh, wasn't aware acupuncture needles were covered.
Regardless, I think if one watches the marketing involved in many nutritional supplements and, perhaps even worse, 'alternative medicine' schemes (naturopathy and homeopathy most egregiously) there is a decided undercurrent of promise and deceptive marketing designed to make people think it works.

Alternative medicines are regulated though not as strictly as those claiming to actually cure things.
For instance dietary supplements like the one you mentioned are classified as food and thus not as heavily regulated as long as they do not claim to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent disease. It is however regulated.

Sure, but homeopathy often rather directly claims to cure things and yet remains decidedly less regulated than other drugs (to be fair, this is a specific problem with US regulations in regards to homeopathic medicine vis-a-vis the FDA, but I digress). There do remain some regulations, of course. But then, 'gay conversion therapy' is covered by some regulations as well.

That is not the claim made by those who do conversion therapy. They claim to cure homosexuality and thus would fall under the more heavy regulations. In the US in order to be perform therapy you are required to have a license as controlled by the individual state. http://counsellingresource.com/lib/ther ... licensure/

I honestly haven't heard or seen any advertisements or claims by gay conversion believers, so I'd imagine they get away with any claims they do make under the same or similar auspices as anyone else gets away with marketing or advertising 'cures' for things (hypnotherapy oft claims to cure smoking, for instance).
And a mental health license is not required to perform all 'therapy', as many 'therapies' quite simply don't qualify as related to mental health in the US. Hypnotherapy varies by state, but per Wiki Washington is the only one to regulate it. Other 'behavioral therapy' models also remain very unregulated, such as those related to 'teambuilding' or, perhaps more famously and applicable to 'gay conversion camps', those 'self-help' groups out there (Alcoholics Anonymous and other such programs aren't headed up by or lead by mental health professionals, for instance)

Thus if they claim to be doing therapy they must be licensed in the state. If they claim to be curing or treating something, they are covered by the FDA. Which now makes me wonder exactly what they are claiming that they can bypass these laws.

Likely either that they aren't 'guaranteed' to work in some manner (making no solid claim about 'curing' homosexuality but being 'group self-help' or 'coping' organizations instead, similar to how AA markets itself or how snake-oil like homeopathy sells itself).

Again those supplements are indeed not regulated the same as those that fall under drugs, because they are not classified as drugs, but rather as food. The regulations for food and the regulations for drugs are different. If I recall there was a Supreme Court case about the regulations when it came to things like those supplements.

As to homeopathy...I feel the FDA is failing in appropriately regulating it.

[Grenartia]

It's still some form of regulation. As I have stated numerous bloody times, if they are of sound mind and are an adult, then let them have straight or gay conversion therapy or whatever they want.

... providing they're not being tricked into it. Which they are. Maybe not banning it outright for adults, but how about adding mandatory warnings as to its problems into their publicity/etc.? That's not banning anything, just allowing consumers to make more informed choices.

Probably also promote alternatives so that they don't feel like even with all the bad shit, its the only way.

[San Lumen]

... providing they're not being tricked into it. Which they are. Maybe not banning it outright for adults, but how about adding mandatory warnings as to its problems into their publicity/etc.? That's not banning anything, just allowing consumers to make more informed choices.

Probably also promote alternatives so that they don't feel like even with all the bad shit, its the only way.

There are no alternative as homosexuality isn't something than can be cured.

[Kraylandia]

It's still some form of regulation. As I have stated numerous bloody times, if they are of sound mind and are an adult, then let them have straight or gay conversion therapy or whatever they want.

... providing they're not being tricked into it. Which they are. Maybe not banning it outright for adults, but how about adding mandatory warnings as to its problems into their publicity/etc.? That's not banning anything, just allowing consumers to make more informed choices.

Already said I support warnings. Lots of them!

[Grenartia]

Probably also promote alternatives so that they don't feel like even with all the bad shit, its the only way.

There are no alternative as homosexuality isn't something than can be cured.

I believe you have misread my post. I am referring to alternatives to the torture, not being gay.

[San Lumen]

There are no alternative as homosexuality isn't something than can be cured.

I believe you have misread my post. I am referring to alternatives to the torture, not being gay.

But what are the alternatives you speak of? Are you not suggesting homosexuality is something that can be cured? because it can't.

[Korhal IVV]

I believe you have misread my post. I am referring to alternatives to the torture, not being gay.

But what are the alternatives you speak of? Are you not suggesting homosexuality is something that can be cured? because it can't.

There are people who turned back to straight

[Morr]

I don't see why it's pseudoscience, but to accomplish it would be intensive. It would be like making someone who hates coffee and loves tea, hate tea and love coffee.

[Threlizdun]

I don't see why it's pseudoscience, but to accomplish it would be intensive. It would be like making someone who hates coffee and loves tea, hate tea and love coffee.

It's a pseudoscience because it uses a false understanding of human sexuality, falsely claims a natural characteristic of many people to be harmful, and tries to change this part of them when it can't be change. It's bullshit after bullshit masquerading as science. How is it not pseudoscience?

[San Lumen]

I don't see why it's pseudoscience, but to accomplish it would be intensive. It would be like making someone who hates coffee and loves tea, hate tea and love coffee.

It's a pseudoscience because it uses a false understanding of human sexuality, falsely claims a natural characteristic of many people to be harmful, and tries to change this part of them when it can't be change. It's bullshit after bullshit masquerading as science. How is it not pseudoscience?

exactly and i really don;t get the arguments against banning it. Its not about freedom of choice. Its a pseudoscience that causes harm and none of the believers of it is going to say how bad it is. So what's wrong with simply outlawing it?

[Morr]

I don't see why it's pseudoscience, but to accomplish it would be intensive. It would be like making someone who hates coffee and loves tea, hate tea and love coffee.

It's a pseudoscience because it uses a false understanding of human sexuality, falsely claims a natural characteristic of many people to be harmful, and tries to change this part of them when it can't be change. It's bullshit after bullshit masquerading as science. How is it not pseudoscience?

I guess from their point of view it *is* harmful. There are plenty of attitudes and lifestyles in other cultures that we'd consider harmful but those cultures would not.

[San Lumen]

It's a pseudoscience because it uses a false understanding of human sexuality, falsely claims a natural characteristic of many people to be harmful, and tries to change this part of them when it can't be change. It's bullshit after bullshit masquerading as science. How is it not pseudoscience?

I guess from their point of view it *is* harmful. There are plenty of attitudes and lifestyles in other cultures that we'd consider harmful but those cultures would not.

being gay isn't a lifestyle as its not a choice.

[Red Star Union]

I think it should be banned, unless they somehow make it work. It should also be completely voluntary.

[Morr]

I guess from their point of view it *is* harmful. There are plenty of attitudes and lifestyles in other cultures that we'd consider harmful but those cultures would not.

being gay isn't a lifestyle as its not a choice.

If it were a choice, then conversion therapy would be pointless, wouldn't it?

[San Lumen]

I think it should be banned, unless they somehow make it work. It should also be completely voluntary.

well you can't make it work as sexuality isn't something that can be changed. People under 18 don't have the option of it being voluntary. Their parents can force them into it.

[Red Star Union]

I think it should be banned, unless they somehow make it work. It should also be completely voluntary.

well you can't make it work as sexuality isn't something that can be changed. People under 18 don't have the option of it being voluntary. Their parents can force them into it.

That's why I said "somehow", implying that none of us know how they'd do it.

[Morr]

I think it should be banned, unless they somehow make it work. It should also be completely voluntary.

well you can't make it work as sexuality isn't something that can be changed. People under 18 don't have the option of it being voluntary. Their parents can force them into it.

Why can't sexuality be changed? Isn't it psychological, like gender?

[San Lumen]

well you can't make it work as sexuality isn't something that can be changed. People under 18 don't have the option of it being voluntary. Their parents can force them into it.

Why can't sexuality be changed? Isn't it psychological, like gender?

I'm not a psychologist but everything i have read says it can't be. It's not a choice or lifestyle. Its simply who you are. Your born that way. Attempts to change it are complete nonsense.

[Red Star Union]

Why can't sexuality be changed? Isn't it psychological, like gender?

I'm not a psychologist but everything i have read says it can't be. It's not a choice or lifestyle. Its simply who you are. Your born that way. Attempts to change it are complete nonsense.

I'm afraid there is no "simply who you are". Your personality, your everything apart from physical condition, is psychological.

[Morr]

Why can't sexuality be changed? Isn't it psychological, like gender?

I'm not a psychologist but everything i have read says it can't be. It's not a choice or lifestyle. Its simply who you are. Your born that way. Attempts to change it are complete nonsense.

Babies aren't gay or straight, that sounds ridiculous.

[San Lumen]

I'm not a psychologist but everything i have read says it can't be. It's not a choice or lifestyle. Its simply who you are. Your born that way. Attempts to change it are complete nonsense.

Babies aren't gay or straight, that sounds ridiculous.

You aren't aware of your sexuality when your a baby.

[Morr]

Babies aren't gay or straight, that sounds ridiculous.

You aren't aware of your sexuality when your a baby.

You don't have one when you are a baby anymore than you have a gender identity.

[San Lumen]

I'm not a psychologist but everything i have read says it can't be. It's not a choice or lifestyle. Its simply who you are. Your born that way. Attempts to change it are complete nonsense.

I'm afraid there is no "simply who you are". Your personality, your everything apart from physical condition, is psychological.

So are you implying its a choice?

[Neutraligon]

well you can't make it work as sexuality isn't something that can be changed. People under 18 don't have the option of it being voluntary. Their parents can force them into it.

Why can't sexuality be changed? Isn't it psychological, like gender?

Your personality, the things you like and don't like, those are all psychological. Many aspects of which you cannot change.