Russian Politics Thread: Добро пожаловать!

[Panslavicland]

Its no surprise that people are upset when their government is covering up rapes because they were committed by refugees.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-accuses-germany-covering-alleged-rape-13-year-old-girl-by-refugees-1540207

This was debunked.

"A 13-year-old girl who said she was kidnapped and raped by a group of Middle Eastern refugees has admitted the story was “made up”, German police have said."

Yeah, sure she did. Funny how that "fact" only came to light after the Russian FM accused the Germans of a cover up.

[Urmanian]

This was debunked.

"A 13-year-old girl who said she was kidnapped and raped by a group of Middle Eastern refugees has admitted the story was “made up”, German police have said."

Yeah, sure she did. Funny how that "fact" only came to light after the Russian FM accused the Germans of a cover up.

Do you have any proof of the contrary?

[Allanea]

What I am certain of is something is really really wrong with that girl's family.

[Shofercia]

Its no surprise that people are upset when their government is covering up rapes because they were committed by refugees.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/russia-accuses-germany-covering-alleged-rape-13-year-old-girl-by-refugees-1540207

This was debunked.

That specific case might've, perhaps by her very own puppet. However, other cases, most certainly, weren't: http://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/ ... 45e65e141d

GERMANY, Sweden and other European countries are facing growing public unrest amid a wave of reports of sexual assaults since the Cologne attacks. New York-based conservative think tank Gatestone Institute has compiled a shocking list of sexual assaults and rapes by migrants in Germany in just the first two months of the year. Drawing only from German media reports, the list documents more than 160 instances of rape and sexual assault committed by migrants in train stations, swimming pools and other public places against victims as young as seven.

German police use terms such as “southerners” (südländer), men with “dark skin” (dunkelhäutig, dunklere gesichtsfarbe, dunklem hauttyp) or “southern skin colour” (südländische hautfarbe) to describe the alleged perpetrators. Authorities across the country have been accused of downplaying the true extent of the problem by suppressing information about migrant-related crimes, ostensibly due to a “lack of public interest”. Police are also wary of fuelling civil unrest amid a rising number of attacks on migrants and shelters by right-wing vigilante groups. In response, Germans are increasingly turning to social media to spread information. A German Twitter account, @XYEinzelfall (“individual cases”), has created a Google map to track police reports of crimes allegedly committed by migrants across the region. “Cologne was just the tip of the iceberg,” the page says. “Cologne is every day.”

Most recently, three girls aged 15, 16 and 17 were assaulted over two hours by a mob of up to 30 migrants at a shopping centre in the northern city of Kiel. Since the attack, which began when two Afghan men began stalking the teenagers and sharing photos on social media, other women have come forward to report similar experiences. “Groups of young men gather at the Sophienhof [shopping centre] every evening,” a restaurant owner told the Kieler Nachrichten newspaper. “What they do here is unacceptable. The moment they see a young woman wearing a skirt or any type of loose clothing, they believe they have a free pass. It is about time migrants are made to understand: things in Germany function differently than in their home countries.”

"A 13-year-old girl who said she was kidnapped and raped by a group of Middle Eastern refugees has admitted the story was “made up”, German police have said."

Yeah, sure she did. Funny how that "fact" only came to light after the Russian FM accused the Germans of a cover up.

Do you have any proof of the contrary?

Do you have any proof that I actually used a puppet? Because if I was to hypothetically use a puppet, I probably wouldn't be calling said act "puppet-wanking" since most debaters generally don't call themselves various names, something that I did not think was complicated to figure out.

[Allanea]

Russia's Recession Isn't Impacting Its Demography

[Baltenstein]

Next time I see somebody over in the Islam thread saying that Putin and Russia are somehow "friends of Muslims in the West" I'll just link directly to this here conversation.

[Urmanian]

Happy belated Victory Day.

[Shofercia]

Next time I see somebody over in the Islam thread saying that Putin and Russia are somehow "friends of Muslims in the West" I'll just link directly to this here conversation.

You mean a conversation criticizing Neoconservative and Neoliberal policies that lead to a rise of hatred against Islam? You do know that criticizing and praising are antonyms, right? Furthermore, this thread was started by a Muslim who supports Russia's Intervention in Syria, and last time I checked, Putin is the head of the armed forces of the Russian Federation. Has that changed recently?

Russia's Recession Isn't Impacting Its Demography

Awesome

[Baltenstein]

You mean a conversation criticizing Neoconservative and Neoliberal policies that lead to a rise of hatred against Islam?

More like posting news stories on how Muslim refugees are going on rape sprees in Germany, and insisting that even debunked cases actually happened.

Close enough though.

I should also point out that the complete lack of causation in your "neoliberal policies -> Anti-Islamic hatred" equation, and the fact that you yourself posted an article which links the rising Anti-Muslim sentiment not to any sort of "neoliberal policies", but to the behavior of the Muslim immigrants, is kinda funny.

Furthermore, this thread was started by a Muslim who supports Russia's Intervention in Syria

And as we all know, most, if not all, Muslims find this intervention righteous and awesome.

[Shofercia]

You mean a conversation criticizing Neoconservative and Neoliberal policies that lead to a rise of hatred against Islam?

More like posting news stories on how Muslim refugees are going on rape sprees in Germany, and insisting that even debunked cases actually happened.

Close enough though.

So a single post represents all of Russians? And didn't you swear to have me on ignore earlier?

I should also point out that the complete lack of causation in your "neoliberal policies -> Anti-Islamic hatred" equation, and the fact that you yourself posted an article which links the rising Anti-Muslim sentiment not to any sort of "neoliberal policies", but to the behavior of the Muslim immigrants, is kinda funny.

You should also point out that the moon is made of cheese while you're at it. I've stated numerous times that the reason for it isn't hurr-durr Muslims, but rather the lack of integration and the number of immigrants. "Hey, let's bomb a country in Africa/Middle East. Oh shit, we're getting refugees from these countries we bombed, I wonder, where is this causation thing? Oh well, let's take them all in, while doing a half ass job funding integration programs. Wait, why aren't they integrating? Why is the racial violence on the streets? Damn it, it's all Putin's fault! And Trump's! And Berlusconi's! It's totally not our fault, that people are hurt as a result of our policies, as Neolibs we're innocent lambs! No causation whatsoever!"

Furthermore, this thread was started by a Muslim who supports Russia's Intervention in Syria

And as we all know, most, if not all, Muslims find this intervention righteous and awesome.

We actually don't know that. We do know that after Neoliberal/Neoconservative policies there was/is a growth of Islamophobia in Europe. Meanwhile the Russians are restoring Mosques: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150924/1027431086.html

[Mugrul]

Actually Gudjabauri is in between Tskinvali and the border, Khetagurovo was also sort of in that area as well. But it still doesn't explain why he didn't have them cleansed.

So Saakashvili decided to throw away everything and shoot himself in the leg, that is try to cleanse South Ossetia. Despite the fact that a) he wasn't a crazy ethnic nationalist b) it would have been a stupid fucking move from a pragmatic perspective.

Sort of in the area... sort of doesn't count. As for Gudjabauri, Grads were fired there, and Grad holes were found in the village, or fairly close to it. Saakashvili promised that South Ossetia would be forcefully united with Georgia. That was his campaign promise. That's already very non pragmatic. And yes, it was a stupid move.

A few grad holes in the vicinity doesn't mean very much. But importantly the people of Gudjabauri weren't subjected to cleansing.

He didn't promise that it wouldn't forcefully united. An united Georgia was his promise yes, but not forcefully per se. Again there were many attempts at a diplomatic conclusion, but Kokoity refused to cooperate.

That's all fine but you've missed the point. I was referring to Kodori in reference to Russian hypocrisy. It's clear that you don't condone of Yeltsin, but why support Abkhazia's subjugation of the Kodori Gorge? Yes it's small and seemingly insignificant. But so are South Ossetia and North Kosovo and you clearly don't want those two to go ignored.

Did Abkhazia subjugate the civilians in the area? Yes, they forced the military out, but did they force the civilians to leave? The Red Cross clearly stated that wasn't the case.

The people living in Kodori never wanted to be a part of Abkhazia. Only a handful of Abkhaz lived there if any iirc. And you have my word that no non-Svans would like returning to a place where the government gets overthrown if they try to give Georgians citizenship.

[Mugrul]

Also in reference to the Russia-Muslims issue, although this might not be exact, according to pew most in the Muslim world hold Russia in low regard.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/08/05/russia-putin-held-in-low-regard-around-the-world/

[Robert Bork]

You do realize that the it is the current administration which broke the oligarch stranglehold on the country?

I should note that the Neoliberal policies that a poster with the nick "Robert Bork" is suggesting for Syria, have been "wildly successful" in Germany; for instance, after said policies, 60% hate state that a religious minority does not belong in Germany, which would do "wonders" when replicated in Syria, but if, and only if Assad would be gone, because we all know that a single man causes all of a country's problems. Nothing promotes "Human Rights" quite like the ethnic cleansing of Tawargha, with the aid of Neoliberal "Human Rights" bombs.

I didn't suggest any neoliberal policies. I actually mocked Secretary Clinton at one point.

[Geilinor]

You do realize that the it is the current administration which broke the oligarch stranglehold on the country?

I should note that the Neoliberal policies that a poster with the nick "Robert Bork" is suggesting for Syria, have been "wildly successful" in Germany; for instance, after said policies, 60% hate state that a religious minority does not belong in Germany, which would do "wonders" when replicated in Syria, but if, and only if Assad would be gone, because we all know that a single man causes all of a country's problems. Nothing promotes "Human Rights" quite like the ethnic cleansing of Tawargha, with the aid of Neoliberal "Human Rights" bombs.

It's the refugee crisis that caused the recent tensions in Germany, not neoliberalism.

[Delacroix]

Putin had a decent record with the economy, ok, but that doesn't excuse his cronyism, corruption, and complete inability to uphold the basic freedoms all men are guaranteed. He's a bastard.

[Sharania]

SF - I will forgive you, if you'll apologize for calling me someone's "puppet".

Meanwhile, as for your message here:

Half of Ukraines issues stem from corruption and mismanagement from protectionist Conservatives who have no idea how to run economies, and the mix band of Communist nuts, Russian nationalists and Ortho fundamentalists roaming around the Ukrainian-Russian border. Civil Wars are not good for economics, however the sooner the shit is cleared and rightful Ukrainian land is reclaimed, the sooner the liberal reforms can be made and Ukraine can enjoy the relative prosperity and social freedoms West European nations have enjoyed.

For this to happened Ukraine needs lots of modern NATO-grade weapons and one Big Push, to eliminate the invaders and their quislings. Probably, several deniable CIA assets in the form of military advisers and PMC troopers as well. They will also need the full support of the International Community post factum.

Sadly, for now, I see no developments in that direction.

On the other issue - I have no idea about what "protectionist Conservatives" you are talking here. From what I've read about them, all MPs in the current coalition are pro-Western reformers and supporters of the democracy. Whom will you call a "conservative"? President Poroshenko? New PM Groysman? Saakashvili?

[Shofercia]

Sort of in the area... sort of doesn't count. As for Gudjabauri, Grads were fired there, and Grad holes were found in the village, or fairly close to it. Saakashvili promised that South Ossetia would be forcefully united with Georgia. That was his campaign promise. That's already very non pragmatic. And yes, it was a stupid move.

A few grad holes in the vicinity doesn't mean very much. But importantly the people of Gudjabauri weren't subjected to cleansing.

He didn't promise that it wouldn't forcefully united. An united Georgia was his promise yes, but not forcefully per se. Again there were many attempts at a diplomatic conclusion, but Kokoity refused to cooperate.

The population of South Ossetia was 70,000. Approximately 15,000 Georgians left before the war. Out of the remaining 55,000, 30,000 became refugees in Russia and 2,000 were reported missing. Most were later found, oddly enough, not inside their non existent homes. So that's 32,000/55,000, or 58% of the population of South Ossetia fleeing. The extreme majority of Tskhinval(i)'s population fled. But hey, it was just a few grad holes in the vicinity... And the only way to unite Georgia was to do so forcefully. It's the same with Crimea, or the Falklands.

Did Abkhazia subjugate the civilians in the area? Yes, they forced the military out, but did they force the civilians to leave? The Red Cross clearly stated that wasn't the case.

The people living in Kodori never wanted to be a part of Abkhazia. Only a handful of Abkhaz lived there if any iirc. And you have my word that no non-Svans would like returning to a place where the government gets overthrown if they try to give Georgians citizenship.

Georgians can get citizenship in Kodori Valley. Granted, there's a catch - they'd have to give up their Georgian citizenship, which I disagree with; I think they should be allowed to have dual citizenship. However, poorly written dual citizenship laws do not equate with forceful subjugation.

I should note that the Neoliberal policies that a poster with the nick "Robert Bork" is suggesting for Syria, have been "wildly successful" in Germany; for instance, after said policies, 60% hate state that a religious minority does not belong in Germany, which would do "wonders" when replicated in Syria, but if, and only if Assad would be gone, because we all know that a single man causes all of a country's problems. Nothing promotes "Human Rights" quite like the ethnic cleansing of Tawargha, with the aid of Neoliberal "Human Rights" bombs.

I didn't suggest any neoliberal policies. I actually mocked Secretary Clinton at one point.

Bork, this is a forum. Your previous quotes are on record. Here is Mr. Bork "mocking" Hillary Clinton:

It's true that Russia's temporarily propped up the sick man of Syria. But just as the Russian operation was really designed to bomb both the rebels and ISIS, the American campaign that President Clinton is going to launch will be ostensibly targeted towards ISIS while bombing the shit out of Asaad's forces. Clinton has taught us that in her neoliberal language, "no fly zone" equals "bomb the shit out of the dictator I don't like". So we're definitely going to see a reversal of Russia's goals in Syria soon.

The irony is that if she becomes president and carries out his Neoliberal advice, she will be viciously mocked.

I should note that the Neoliberal policies that a poster with the nick "Robert Bork" is suggesting for Syria, have been "wildly successful" in Germany; for instance, after said policies, 60% hate state that a religious minority does not belong in Germany, which would do "wonders" when replicated in Syria, but if, and only if Assad would be gone, because we all know that a single man causes all of a country's problems. Nothing promotes "Human Rights" quite like the ethnic cleansing of Tawargha, with the aid of Neoliberal "Human Rights" bombs.

It's the refugee crisis that caused the recent tensions in Germany, not neoliberalism.

So Neoliberal support of the Arab Spring followed by subsequent bombings, didn't cause the refugee crisis? Neoliberal austerity policies didn't take away from the integration programs? Did the refugees just magically enter Europe via rides from My Little Ponies and refuse to integrate cuz dey b Mozlemz?

[Shofercia]

Also in reference to the Russia-Muslims issue, although this might not be exact, according to pew most in the Muslim world hold Russia in low regard.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/08/05/russia-putin-held-in-low-regard-around-the-world/

According to that poll, Russia is also unpopular with Christians, atheists, etc. On the other hand Russia must have nice Buddhist programs. Or we can realize that's just the perception of Russia by country, which is fickle, and has nothing to do with religion.

SF - I will forgive you, if you'll apologize for calling me someone's "puppet".

Meanwhile, as for your message here:

Half of Ukraines issues stem from corruption and mismanagement from protectionist Conservatives who have no idea how to run economies, and the mix band of Communist nuts, Russian nationalists and Ortho fundamentalists roaming around the Ukrainian-Russian border. Civil Wars are not good for economics, however the sooner the shit is cleared and rightful Ukrainian land is reclaimed, the sooner the liberal reforms can be made and Ukraine can enjoy the relative prosperity and social freedoms West European nations have enjoyed.

For this to happened Ukraine needs lots of modern NATO-grade weapons and one Big Push, to eliminate the invaders and their quislings. Probably, several deniable CIA assets in the form of military advisers and PMC troopers as well. They will also need the full support of the International Community post factum.

Sadly, for now, I see no developments in that direction.

On the other issue - I have no idea about what "protectionist Conservatives" you are talking here. From what I've read about them, all MPs in the current coalition are pro-Western reformers and supporters of the democracy. Whom will you call a "conservative"? President Poroshenko? New PM Groysman? Saakashvili?

NATO isn't going to fight Russia over Eastern Ukraine, especially when the problem can be solved via a Referendum. I know that you want a war, but it's really not going to happen.

[Robert Bork]

Shofercia--I was mocking the fact that the U.N. Resolution in Libya allowed for a no-fly zone to protect civilians but developed into a one-sided attack on the Gaddafi. I reasoned the terms "taught us", "neoliberal language", and "bomb the shit out of" would make my own deprecating intent clear. It didn't to you, however. My bad for that.

[Shofercia]

Shofercia--I was mocking the fact that the U.N. Resolution in Libya allowed for a no-fly zone to protect civilians but developed into a one-sided attack on the Gaddadi. I reasoned the terms "taught us", "neoliberal language", and "bomb the shit out of" would make my deprecating intent clear. It didn't to you, however. My bad for that.

This was your quote:

It's true that Russia's temporarily propped up the sick man of Syria. But just as the Russian operation was really designed to bomb both the rebels and ISIS, the American campaign that President Clinton is going to launch will be ostensibly targeted towards ISIS while bombing the shit out of Asaad's forces. Clinton has taught us that in her neoliberal language, "no fly zone" equals "bomb the shit out of the dictator I don't like". So we're definitely going to see a reversal of Russia's goals in Syria soon.

Were you also being sarcastic in claiming that the Russians "bombed the [insurgents] and ISIS" or that parts of Obama's administration wanted to target "ISIS while bombing the shit out of Assad's forces" eh? because those don't seem sarcastic. Next time use the sarcasm tags.

[Robert Bork]

Shofercia--I was mocking the fact that the U.N. Resolution in Libya allowed for a no-fly zone to protect civilians but developed into a one-sided attack on the Gaddadi. I reasoned the terms "taught us", "neoliberal language", and "bomb the shit out of" would make my deprecating intent clear. It didn't to you, however. My bad for that.

This was your quote:

It's true that Russia's temporarily propped up the sick man of Syria. But just as the Russian operation was really designed to bomb both the rebels and ISIS, the American campaign that President Clinton is going to launch will be ostensibly targeted towards ISIS while bombing the shit out of Asaad's forces. Clinton has taught us that in her neoliberal language, "no fly zone" equals "bomb the shit out of the dictator I don't like". So we're definitely going to see a reversal of Russia's goals in Syria soon.

Were you also being sarcastic in claiming that the Russians "bombed the [insurgents] and ISIS" or that parts of Obama's administration wanted to target "ISIS while bombing the shit out of Assad's forces" eh? because those don't seem sarcastic. Next time use the sarcasm tags.

Consider my most recent post a sarcasm tag then.

[Shofercia]

This was your quote:



Were you also being sarcastic in claiming that the Russians "bombed the [insurgents] and ISIS" or that parts of Obama's administration wanted to target "ISIS while bombing the shit out of Assad's forces" eh? because those don't seem sarcastic. Next time use the sarcasm tags.

Consider my most recent post a sarcasm tag then.

Generally speaking, you want your sarcasm tags after the sarcastic statements, not several posts later.

Although in some cases, it might be acceptable /sarcasm

[Robert Bork]

Shofercia--I was mocking the fact that the U.N. Resolution in Libya allowed for a no-fly zone to protect civilians but developed into a one-sided attack on the Gaddadi. I reasoned the terms "taught us", "neoliberal language", and "bomb the shit out of" would make my deprecating intent clear. It didn't to you, however. My bad for that.

This was your quote:

It's true that Russia's temporarily propped up the sick man of Syria. But just as the Russian operation was really designed to bomb both the rebels and ISIS, the American campaign that President Clinton is going to launch will be ostensibly targeted towards ISIS while bombing the shit out of Asaad's forces. Clinton has taught us that in her neoliberal language, "no fly zone" equals "bomb the shit out of the dictator I don't like". So we're definitely going to see a reversal of Russia's goals in Syria soon.

Were you also being sarcastic in claiming that the Russians "bombed the [insurgents] and ISIS" or that parts of Obama's administration wanted to target "ISIS while bombing the shit out of Assad's forces" eh? because those don't seem sarcastic. Next time use the sarcasm tags.

I wasn't being sarcastic about the Russians, no. I don't think it's a coincidence that Russia left Syria as soon as Asaad's military regained its momentum. Their goal was to prop up the Asaad regime. I don't fault them for that. Syria is an ally of Russia and has the right to call for their assistance.

The U.S. doesn't want Asaad in power precisely because of this relationship. Given her history of deposing dictators under the guise of protecting civilians from violence on either side , Clinton is likely to do the same in Syria, defended by Kosovo and Libya-esque rhetoric . I'm agreeing with you that these interventions are unjustified, but I don't see how you don't agree Clinton wouldn't bomb Asaad in Syria.

[Robert Bork]

Consider my most recent post a sarcasm tag then.

Generally speaking, you want your sarcasm tags after the sarcastic statements, not several posts later.

Although in some cases, it might be acceptable /sarcasm

Comprehension of English is its own kind of sarcasm tag. Sorry about your incompetence in that respect.

[Shofercia]

This was your quote:



Were you also being sarcastic in claiming that the Russians "bombed the [insurgents] and ISIS" or that parts of Obama's administration wanted to target "ISIS while bombing the shit out of Assad's forces" eh? because those don't seem sarcastic. Next time use the sarcasm tags.

I wasn't being sarcastic about the Russians, no. I don't think it's a coincidence that Russia left Syria as soon as Asaad's military regained its momentum. Their goal was to pop up the Asaad regime. I don't fault them for that. Syria is an ally of Russia and has the right to call for their assistance.

The U.S. doesn't want Asaad in power precisely because of this relationship. Given her history of deposing dictators under the guise of protecting against only protecting civilians, Clinton is likely to do the same in Syria, defended by Kosovo and Libya-esque. I'm agreeing with you that these interventions are unjustified, but I don't see how you don't agree Clinton wouldn't bomb Asasd in Syria.

Russia left Syria? That's news to me. Putin utilized PR to point out that Russia's leaving Syria, when it was a simple troop rotation. The sheer amount of Western Journalists falling for it was hilarious. But Russia's still very much in Syria. The Russians are taking a break from pounding insurgents, but if you're ISIS in Syria, you probably shouldn't go anywhere near Palmyra or Latakia, unless you want a date with a good looking SpetzNaz bullet.

As for Clinton not bombing Assad - many reasons why. First, she won't have the American people behind her. It was the American Public that prevented the original Syrian Quagmire. Second, she won't have the Republicans behind her either, since for them, it'll be a nice chance to humiliate Hillary. Third, she'll be facing off directly with Russia, and indirectly with China. Not a good idea. She knows how to calculate the odds of success. Yes, she's a self-serving individual, but she isn't insane. Fourth, she isn't going to want to be tarred as badly as Bush was.

Generally speaking, you want your sarcasm tags after the sarcastic statements, not several posts later.

Although in some cases, it might be acceptable /sarcasm

Comprehension of English is its own kind of sarcasm tag. Sorry about your incompetence in that respect.

Hmmm, should I take the bait from someone who doesn't see why Hillary won't engage Putin in Syria?