Russian Politics Thread: Добро пожаловать!

[Sharania]

I mean though to be fair, the idea that Russia would collapse as a country...

Again - SF, what are you saying here? Even if it collapses - what's bad in that? USSR fell and nothing bad came from that. How can you not wish for Putinist Regime to fell?

[Sharania]

I was actually referring to Union of Right Forces and other anti Kremlin liberal parties. There is multiple.

Well - which one?!

[Sadist France]

I mean though to be fair, the idea that Russia would collapse as a country...

Again - SF, what are you saying here? Even if it collapses - what's bad in that? USSR fell and nothing bad came from that. How can you not wish for Putinist Regime to fell?

Chill, I'm on your side.

Someone argued that liberalism would lead to absolutely no nationalism and thus would lead to a situation where nothing exists in the area of Russia, I argued that the geographical entity of Russia would not dissipate simply because they gained European liberalism and societal freedom.

You can't have European liberalism and societal freedom with the Kremlin dominance so obviously the Kremlin would not be a factor under a liberal Russia.

[Sharania]

Is that why Russia is still in Syria and still has $71 billion in the sovereign wealth fund? Nothing says that someone's broke like $71 billion. You show 'em Sharania, you show 'em: http://old.minfin.ru/en/nationalwealthf ... ?id_4=5830

Oh, so the Dear Leader lied - again! Why I'm not even surprised?

And $71 billions - that's peanuts. How much did he had before his idiotic confrontation with the West?

[Urmanian]

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

[Sharania]

Chill, I'm on your side.

Someone argued that absolutely no nationalism would lead to a situation where nothing exists in the area of Russia, I argued that the geographical entity of Russia would not dissipate simply because they gained European liberalism and societal freedom.

You can't have European liberalism and societal freedom with the Kremlin dominance so obviously the Kremlin would not be a factor under a liberal Russia.

Again - SO WHAT IF RUSSIA DISSIPATES? It would be only beneficial to have several smaller republics of normal size than this unite Eurasian monster. In its present territorial form Russia will never become democratic or liberal. Only partition is the way.

[Sadist France]

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

This tbh.

The fact that I keep getting confrontations when its obvious what my views are on the matter makes me suspect a lack of sincerity

Chill, I'm on your side.

Someone argued that absolutely no nationalism would lead to a situation where nothing exists in the area of Russia, I argued that the geographical entity of Russia would not dissipate simply because they gained European liberalism and societal freedom.

You can't have European liberalism and societal freedom with the Kremlin dominance so obviously the Kremlin would not be a factor under a liberal Russia.

Again - SO WHAT IF RUSSIA DISSIPATES? It would be only beneficial to have several smaller republics of normal size than this unite Eurasian monster. In its present territorial form Russia will never become democratic or liberal. Only partition is the way.

Yeah you're a parody account. It would be nice if Sho and Spi could actually debate without the use of such deceptive tactics.

[Sharania]

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

What does this even suppose to mean? Care to explain?

[Sharania]

Yeah you're a parody account. It would be nice if Sho and Spi could actually debate without the use of such deceptive tactics.

You supported just recently 2 Kremlenite puppet-parties - not knowing about that.

And now you are accusing ME?

[Urmanian]

What does this even suppose to mean? Care to explain?

You're a parody account spewing ridiculous strawmen all over the place.

[Sharania]

What does this even suppose to mean? Care to explain?

You're a parody account spewing ridiculous strawmen all over the place.

Wait... are you accusing me of being a... troll?

[Shofercia]

I mean though to be fair, the idea that Russia would collapse as a country...

Again - SF, what are you saying here? Even if it collapses - what's bad in that? USSR fell and nothing bad came from that. How can you not wish for Putinist Regime to fell?

Nothing bad happened from the fall of the USSR? So starvation, mob rule, ethnic warfare - all good thing according to Sharania...

Is that why Russia is still in Syria and still has $71 billion in the sovereign wealth fund? Nothing says that someone's broke like $71 billion. You show 'em Sharania, you show 'em: http://old.minfin.ru/en/nationalwealthf ... ?id_4=5830

Oh, so the Dear Leader lied - again! Why I'm not even surprised?

And $71 billions - that's peanuts. How much did he had before his idiotic confrontation with the West?

$88 billion. The data's all there. It's not hard to click on the link and look it up.

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

I hereby give the moderators full permission to verify that I'm not Sharania.

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

This tbh.

The fact that I keep getting confrontations when its obvious what my views are on the matter makes me suspect a lack of sincerity

Again - SO WHAT IF RUSSIA DISSIPATES? It would be only beneficial to have several smaller republics of normal size than this unite Eurasian monster. In its present territorial form Russia will never become democratic or liberal. Only partition is the way.

Yeah you're a parody account. It would be nice if Sho and Spi could actually debate without the use of such deceptive tactics.

All of my puppets were/are clearly labeled as puppets of Shofercia. I don't engage in puppet wanking. It would be nice if you didn't take Urmanian's lies about me at face value, especially considering his "amazing" debate record against me.

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

What does this even suppose to mean? Care to explain?

Urmanian and Sadist France think that I control your account. I've given the mods permission to verify that I don't.

[Mugrul]

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

Could it be telling perhaps that both are listed of having last visited the forums at roughly the same time?

[Shofercia]

Sharania I am having problems believing you're not Shofercia's puppet account made to discredit/parody Russian liberalism.

Could it be telling perhaps that both are listed of having last visited the forums at roughly the same time?

Oh boy, another one. So is everyone whom I've outdebated going to come out now and accuse me of being Sharania?

[Mugrul]

Could it be telling perhaps that both are listed of having last visited the forums at roughly the same time?

Oh boy, another one. So is everyone whom I've outdebated going to come out now and accuse me of being Sharania?

I wouldn't say that you've outdebated me. I simply got bored of trying to explain why Saakashvili wasn't trying to ethnically cleanse South Ossetia.

Either way that's a pretty strange coincidence.

[Shofercia]

Oh boy, another one. So is everyone whom I've outdebated going to come out now and accuse me of being Sharania?

I wouldn't say that you've outdebated me. I simply got bored of trying to explain why Saakashvili wasn't trying to ethnically cleanse South Ossetia.

So he named it "Operation Clear Field" for shits and giggles, shelled the most densely populated residential area, (with no military infrastructure,) for the heck of it, rolled his tank columns through the city to check out the view, bombarded the peacekeeping base because he wanted to redecorate the square, and had an alternative government ready to go for the lulz? Not to mention the entire war was started by Saakashvili, and his "but I was provoked" excuse didn't fly with Swiss Diplomat Heidi Tavgliani.

Either way that's a pretty strange coincidence.

People post on forum - how odd!

[Sadist France]

Donesk and Donbass belong to Ukraine honestly. Euromaiden was one of the best things that ever happened to Ukraine considering its history of strife and hardship

Anyone can make the claim of brutality except for the fact the current Ukranian government actually has a chance of obtaining a fairly liberal and democratic society which isn't hampered by the religious orthochurch authoritarianism Russia is.

[Shofercia]

Also: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=377535

[Shofercia]

Donesk and Donbass belong to Ukraine honestly. Euromaiden was one of the best things that ever happened to Ukraine considering its history of strife and hardship

Anyone can make the claim of brutality except for the fact the current Ukranian government actually has a chance of obtaining a fairly liberal and democratic society which isn't hampered by the religious orthochurch authoritarianism Russia is.

Donetsk is part of DonBass. I think you meant to say Donetsk and Lugansk. You say they're part of Ukraine - I say let the people decide. Which one of us is more pro-democracy, the guy who tells people what to do, or the guy who lets people vote? Euromaidan placed Ukraine's economy in shambles, so I highly doubt it was one of the best things to happen to Ukraine. Let's look at the facts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrai ... rship.aspx

17% approve of Poroshenko's job performance
8% confident in their national government
5% say government doing enough to fight corruption

And:



Ukrainians think that Poroshenko is worse than Yanukovich. And Poroshenko already hit single digits in quite a few places in Ukraine:

More Ukrainians had confidence in their government under Yanukovich, than under Yushenko or Poroshenko:

Economy in shambles, corruption is rampant, faith in government on a massive decline = big success of EuroMaidan!

[Sadist France]

Donesk and Donbass belong to Ukraine honestly. Euromaiden was one of the best things that ever happened to Ukraine considering its history of strife and hardship

Anyone can make the claim of brutality except for the fact the current Ukranian government actually has a chance of obtaining a fairly liberal and democratic society which isn't hampered by the religious orthochurch authoritarianism Russia is.

Donetsk is part of DonBass. I think you meant to say Donetsk and Lugansk. You say they're part of Ukraine - I say let the people decide. Which one of us is more pro-democracy, the guy who tells people what to do, or the guy who lets people vote? Euromaidan placed Ukraine's economy in shambles, so I highly doubt it was one of the best things to happen to Ukraine. Let's look at the facts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrai ... rship.aspx

17% approve of Poroshenko's job performance
8% confident in their national government
5% say government doing enough to fight corruption

And:



Ukrainians think that Poroshenko is worse than Yanukovich. And Poroshenko already hit single digits in quite a few places in Ukraine:

More Ukrainians had confidence in their government under Yanukovich, than under Yushenko or Poroshenko:

Economy in shambles, corruption is rampant, faith in government on a massive decline = big success of EuroMaidan!

I mean it doesn't help theres a civil war going on.

The most prosperous nations in the world are ones with free markets. Just look at places like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, West Europe, USA, Israel, etc

Half of Ukraines issues stem from corruption and mismanagement from protectionist Conservatives who have no idea how to run economies, and the mix band of Communist nuts, Russian nationalists and Ortho fundamentalists roaming around the Ukrainian-Russian border. Civil Wars are not good for economics, however the sooner the shit is cleared and rightful Ukrainian land is reclaimed, the sooner the liberal reforms can be made and Ukraine can enjoy the relative prosperity and social freedoms West European nations have enjoyed.

[Mugrul]

Yea Ukrainians don't really like Poroshenko anymore. Nevertheless polls indicate they've become more pro-EU and pro-NATO at the same time.

[Mugrul]

I wouldn't say that you've outdebated me. I simply got bored of trying to explain why Saakashvili wasn't trying to ethnically cleanse South Ossetia.

So he named it "Operation Clear Field" for shits and giggles, shelled the most densely populated residential area, (with no military infrastructure,) for the heck of it, rolled his tank columns through the city to check out the view, bombarded the peacekeeping base because he wanted to redecorate the square, and had an alternative government ready to go for the lulz? Not to mention the entire war was started by Saakashvili, and his "but I was provoked" excuse didn't fly with Swiss Diplomat Heidi Tavgliani.

If he was going to commit ethnic cleansing why weren't undefended Ossetian villages emptied as Georgian forces moved into them? There is literally no reason for why defenseless Ossetian villagers would have been left alone and treated civilly if the their invaders' goal were ethnic cleansing. Civil treatment is the near opposite of ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing isn't something that people just commit because they simply don't like a certain peoples either, it require quite a lot of hatred, especially if said ethnic cleansing would throw away quite a deal of what had been accomplished beforehand. This was the case with Saakashvili, except his politics and previous actions were completely devoid of the required rabid anti-Ossetian ethnic nationalism as I showed in the other thread.

I'm not a complete Saakashvili apologist either. And although the puppet Kokoity government's refusal to cooperate whatsoever obviously helped nurture his militaristic policy, I know what he did was morally wrong.

[Shofercia]

Donetsk is part of DonBass. I think you meant to say Donetsk and Lugansk. You say they're part of Ukraine - I say let the people decide. Which one of us is more pro-democracy, the guy who tells people what to do, or the guy who lets people vote? Euromaidan placed Ukraine's economy in shambles, so I highly doubt it was one of the best things to happen to Ukraine. Let's look at the facts: http://www.gallup.com/poll/187931/ukrai ... rship.aspx



And:



Ukrainians think that Poroshenko is worse than Yanukovich. And Poroshenko already hit single digits in quite a few places in Ukraine:

More Ukrainians had confidence in their government under Yanukovich, than under Yushenko or Poroshenko:

Economy in shambles, corruption is rampant, faith in government on a massive decline = big success of EuroMaidan!

I mean it doesn't help theres a civil war going on.

The most prosperous nations in the world are ones with free markets. Just look at places like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, West Europe, USA, Israel, etc

Half of Ukraines issues stem from corruption and mismanagement from protectionist Conservatives who have no idea how to run economies, and the mix band of Communist nuts, Russian nationalists and Ortho fundamentalists roaming around the Ukrainian-Russian border. Civil Wars are not good for economics, however the sooner the shit is cleared and rightful Ukrainian land is reclaimed, the sooner the liberal reforms can be made and Ukraine can enjoy the relative prosperity and social freedoms West European nations have enjoyed.

The most prosperous nations in the World are ones with a great education system and an amazing H1B visa program. And I know this might be challenging for Poroshenko and his ilk to grasp, but a great education system requires paying quality salaries to teachers/professors. Furthermore, warfare in Donetsk and Lugansk does not prevent improvements in other areas of Ukraine. There was warfare in Chechnya, and other parts of Russia experienced phenomenal growth. But sure, blame the Russians for the failures of Kiev, and don't forget to blame the commies while you're at it.

Yea Ukrainians don't really like Poroshenko anymore. Nevertheless polls indicate they've become more pro-EU and pro-NATO at the same time.

Considering that they're chances in getting into either alliance are practically nil, I doubt the growth will last.

So he named it "Operation Clear Field" for shits and giggles, shelled the most densely populated residential area, (with no military infrastructure,) for the heck of it, rolled his tank columns through the city to check out the view, bombarded the peacekeeping base because he wanted to redecorate the square, and had an alternative government ready to go for the lulz? Not to mention the entire war was started by Saakashvili, and his "but I was provoked" excuse didn't fly with Swiss Diplomat Heidi Tavgliani.

If he was going to commit ethnic cleansing why weren't undefended Ossetian villages emptied as Georgian forces moved into them? There is literally no reason for why defenseless Ossetian villagers would have been left alone and treated civilly if the their invaders' goal were ethnic cleansing. Civil treatment is the near opposite of ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing isn't something that people just commit because they simply don't like a certain peoples either, it require quite a lot of hatred, especially if said ethnic cleansing would throw away quite a deal of what had been accomplished beforehand. This was the case with Saakashvili, except his politics and previous actions were completely devoid of the required rabid anti-Ossetian ethnic nationalism as I showed in the other thread.

I'm not a complete Saakashvili apologist either. And although the puppet Kokoity government's refusal to cooperate whatsoever obviously helped nurture his militaristic policy, I know what he did was morally wrong.

Tskhinval(i) is about 2 kilometers from the Georgian border. There are no villages in between, and Saakashvili's assault was focused on Tskhinval(i). There's been plenty of destruction in the city, including that caused by Dana Howitzers and BM-21 Grads. Ethnic cleansing doesn't require a lot of hatred, it simply requires orders, discipline, and a few ruthless units. Saakashvili wanted South Ossetia to be restored to Georgia, no matter what the cost, and the cost was the ethnic cleansing of Tskhinval(i).

[Mugrul]

Did the Russian state specifically sponsor Basaev's group? I highly doubt that, considering that they were enemies. Lots of people fought in the Caucasus. Most were not sponsored by the Russian State. Lots of people are fighting ISIS, but is the US responsible for all FSA actions? Just because you happen to be on the same side in a war, doesn't make you allies. Unless you want to claim that NATO allied ISIS through Turkey, since Erdogan and ISIS are both very much anti-Kurd.

South Ossetian Demographics - let's see what you got. You made the claim, let's see some sources to back it up. Furthermore, as I already told you, I do NOT support the policies of the 1990s. In 2008, and Mugrul, this has already been explained to you, the Russians removed Georgia's military from the Kodori Gorge. Military. Not civilians. Show me when the Russians, in 2008, removed Georgian Civilians from South Ossetia. Once I do not support the policies of the 1990s, I thought I made that abundantly clear. But feel free to bring up policies of drunks and traitors, and pretend that I support them, it's what you've been doing thus far.

Basayev wasn't quite an enemy of the Russian state at that time. And his group wasn't as actively anti-Russian at that time either. And many Abkhaz as well took part in the ethnic cleansing and massacres. Of course the Georgian side kind of prompted the violence with Gamsakhurdia and etc, but what they received in return was by far not equivalent enough to brush away.

Ok? Never did I claim that Russian forces cleansed anyone. They get credit in fact for halting some of Kokoity's ethnic cleansing when they entered South Ossetia. The point is that it's pure hypocrisy to defend one area's right to self determination, and then subjugate another because your buddies want you to.

[Shofercia]

Did the Russian state specifically sponsor Basaev's group? I highly doubt that, considering that they were enemies. Lots of people fought in the Caucasus. Most were not sponsored by the Russian State. Lots of people are fighting ISIS, but is the US responsible for all FSA actions? Just because you happen to be on the same side in a war, doesn't make you allies. Unless you want to claim that NATO allied ISIS through Turkey, since Erdogan and ISIS are both very much anti-Kurd.

South Ossetian Demographics - let's see what you got. You made the claim, let's see some sources to back it up. Furthermore, as I already told you, I do NOT support the policies of the 1990s. In 2008, and Mugrul, this has already been explained to you, the Russians removed Georgia's military from the Kodori Gorge. Military. Not civilians. Show me when the Russians, in 2008, removed Georgian Civilians from South Ossetia. Once I do not support the policies of the 1990s, I thought I made that abundantly clear. But feel free to bring up policies of drunks and traitors, and pretend that I support them, it's what you've been doing thus far.

Basayev wasn't quite an enemy of the Russian state at that time. And his group wasn't as actively anti-Russian at that time either. And many Abkhaz as well took part in the ethnic cleansing and massacres. Of course the Georgian side kind of prompted the violence with Gamsakhurdia and etc, but what they received in return was by far not equivalent enough to brush away.

Ok? Never did I claim that Russian forces cleansed anyone. They get credit in fact for halting some of Kokoity's ethnic cleansing when they entered South Ossetia. The point is that it's pure hypocrisy to defend one area's right to self determination, and then subjugate another because your buddies want you to.

Yes, it is pure hypocrisy to do so. And guess what? I'm not doing that. I was against the First Chechen War. I supported the soldiers, not the war. I didn't support actions that resulted in removing Georgians from parts of Abkhazia in 1990s either. I think those actions were wrong. I called the governments under which said actions occurred, "drunken" and "traitorous" and that's not an endorsement. That said, my other point is that Basaev, AFAIK, was not involved with the Russian state. He was seeking spoils of war for his next conquest. Most Russians just wanted to go home, if it wasn't destroyed yet. And if Basaev was a Russian agent, and again, everything I've seen points to the contrary, but if he was - that's fucked up.