All Cars Should Be Tracked and Locked

[Galloism]

I refuse to respond in kind; just because Galloism starts essentially fabricating numbers doesn't mean that I too must also resort to such tactics

like I said, there is simply no way it can cost more than universal healthcare + military expenditures of the USA; no reasonable person could believe this

Since you obviously haven't noticed, Gallo sourced all his numbers. The Canadian education system is perfectly capable of teaching how to multiply two numbers, so the problem is clearly with you.

Now kindly get the holier-than-thou stick out of your perfidious ass and prove that his claims are as ludicrous as you say they are, Mr. Mala Fides.

Frankly, if this was purely a surveillance tactic, and talking about the GPS portion only, this could be done fairly cheaply. Maybe $100 per vehicle if you didn't harden it against tampering. If you hardened it, maybe 150-200. This means an nonhardened system would cost a measly 25 billion in vehicle costs, plus infrastructure costs. Hardened, maybe 50-100% more.

The problem comes in when you want to use the speed data in court. Suddenly it must be much more precise, and since you're using satellite data, the ranges for calculation are much larger and more prone to error. You suddenly have to deal with time dilation, satellite position errors, clock errors, etc. Without a WAAS or RAIM system, you could get any ticket thrown out forever. that makes the system worthless for speeding purposes.

That's what makes the cost skyrocket.

[Galloism]

You would need to source your figures, like I did, and provide reasonable explanations, like I did.

It's not "I said it'll cost this much". I linked to a device capable of doing what you want, multiplied it by the number of vehicles currently registered, and got a cost for a universal installation.

I even cut the price by 50% to account for bulk purchasing (which I thought was pretty generous).

So, do a cost estimate - with sources. And keep in mind the data has to be accurate enough to be used in court.

I don't come here to be assigned homework assignments by other posters

Then pardon us if we don't take your ideas seriously if you're not willing to actually analyze the relevant facts necessary to make them work.

Your refusal to actually debate the merits of your idea does not advance the inquiry.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Prove it. Show me some sourced numbers for the cost, like Gallo did.

so if i come up with a cost estimate first that this entire thing would cost the price of a lollipop, you would be on the losing side of the debate until you find a scholarly peer-reviewed article to something that can be established by common sense?

No. If you can come up with numbers based on FACTUAL COSTS that are different than Gallo's, THEN I might be on the losing side of the debate. We've asked you numerous times to come out with a cost for this system. So far you've not provided any at all.

[Gun Manufacturers]

You would need to source your figures, like I did, and provide reasonable explanations, like I did.

It's not "I said it'll cost this much". I linked to a device capable of doing what you want, multiplied it by the number of vehicles currently registered, and got a cost for a universal installation.

I even cut the price by 50% to account for bulk purchasing (which I thought was pretty generous).

So, do a cost estimate - with sources. And keep in mind the data has to be accurate enough to be used in court.

I don't come here to be assigned homework assignments by other posters

So, you're unwilling to back up your claims. Got it. We're done here.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Prove it. Show me some sourced numbers for the cost, like Gallo did.

I don't need to show a made up number to counter a made up number.

So what you're saying is that you're not going to bother providing the evidence that you claim exists in order to disprove the claim being made against your argument?

You've been arguing that that your idea can be implemented cheaply. Now prove it.

The burden of proof is on those saying it would be too expensive to implement.

Another person that's unwilling to provide any evidence that this won't cost enough to cripple the US.

Gallo provided sourced numbers. It's your turn to refute his numbers, but you and IM keep hand-waving it away.

[Galloism]

I don't come here to be assigned homework assignments by other posters

So, you're unwilling to back up your claims. Got it. We're done here.

Ah Kefka, willing to go to war over traffic violations, not willing to do research or perform basic math.

Nationstates, never change.

[Paddy O Fernature]

So, you're unwilling to back up your claims. Got it. We're done here.

Ah Kefka, willing to go to war over traffic violations...

Bwahahahahaah.

[Galloism]

Ah Kefka, willing to go to war over traffic violations...

Bwahahahahaah.

Kefka threads are a trip.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

So, you're unwilling to back up your claims. Got it. We're done here.

Ah Kefka, willing to go to war over traffic violations, not willing to do research or perform basic math.

For someone who hates "might makes right" so much, Kefka really loves it when it suit her purpose.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Ah Kefka, willing to go to war over traffic violations, not willing to do research or perform basic math.

For someone who hates "might makes right" so much, Kefka really loves it when it suit her purpose.

Let's be honest with ourselves for a minute here folks...

Does anyone HONESTLY believe that Kefka isn't just doing these threads, in collaboration with "like minded" friends, purely for the lulz?

[Galloism]

For someone who hates "might makes right" so much, Kefka really loves it when it suit her purpose.

Let's be honest with ourselves for a minute here folks...

Does anyone HONESTLY believe that Kefka isn't just doing these threads, in collaboration with "like minded" friends, purely for the lulz?

I think it's perfectly believable for Kefka to have nearly every stupid idea on the planet, many of which are in direct conflict with each other, simultaneously, and to go about posting them on the forum.

Yessireebob. That makes perfect sense.

[The Two Jerseys]

Let's be honest with ourselves for a minute here folks...

Does anyone HONESTLY believe that Kefka isn't just doing these threads, in collaboration with "like minded" friends, purely for the lulz?

I think it's perfectly believable for Kefka to have nearly every stupid idea on the planet, many of which are in direct conflict with each other, simultaneously, and to go about posting them on the forum.

Yessireebob. That makes perfect sense.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with "narcissistic personality disorder".

[Gauthier]

I think it's perfectly believable for Kefka to have nearly every stupid idea on the planet, many of which are in direct conflict with each other, simultaneously, and to go about posting them on the forum.

Yessireebob. That makes perfect sense.

Personally, I'm inclined to go with "narcissistic personality disorder".

So Infected Mushrooms is really Donald Trump? That would explain the rambling on about big ideas and solutions that will work perfectly without any logical details whatsoever as evidence.

[Valystria]

Since you obviously haven't noticed, Gallo sourced all his numbers. The Canadian education system is perfectly capable of teaching how to multiply two numbers, so the problem is clearly with you.

Now kindly get the holier-than-thou stick out of your perfidious ass and prove that his claims are as ludicrous as you say they are, Mr. Mala Fides.

Frankly, if this was purely a surveillance tactic, and talking about the GPS portion only, this could be done fairly cheaply. Maybe $100 per vehicle if you didn't harden it against tampering. If you hardened it, maybe 150-200. This means an nonhardened system would cost a measly 25 billion in vehicle costs, plus infrastructure costs. Hardened, maybe 50-100% more.

The problem comes in when you want to use the speed data in court. Suddenly it must be much more precise, and since you're using satellite data, the ranges for calculation are much larger and more prone to error. You suddenly have to deal with time dilation, satellite position errors, clock errors, etc. Without a WAAS or RAIM system, you could get any ticket thrown out forever. that makes the system worthless for speeding purposes.

That's what makes the cost skyrocket.

It can be used only for surveillance at first.

I don't need to show a made up number to counter a made up number.


The burden of proof is on those saying it would be too expensive to implement.

Another person that's unwilling to provide any evidence that this won't cost enough to cripple the US.

Gallo provided sourced numbers. It's your turn to refute his numbers, but you and IM keep hand-waving it away.

Gallo has provided numbers saying otherwise. It's entirely affordable if used for surveillance purposes instead of for speed tracking.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Frankly, if this was purely a surveillance tactic, and talking about the GPS portion only, this could be done fairly cheaply. Maybe $100 per vehicle if you didn't harden it against tampering. If you hardened it, maybe 150-200. This means an nonhardened system would cost a measly 25 billion in vehicle costs, plus infrastructure costs. Hardened, maybe 50-100% more.

The problem comes in when you want to use the speed data in court. Suddenly it must be much more precise, and since you're using satellite data, the ranges for calculation are much larger and more prone to error. You suddenly have to deal with time dilation, satellite position errors, clock errors, etc. Without a WAAS or RAIM system, you could get any ticket thrown out forever. that makes the system worthless for speeding purposes.

That's what makes the cost skyrocket.

It can be used only for surveillance at first.

Another person that's unwilling to provide any evidence that this won't cost enough to cripple the US.

Gallo provided sourced numbers. It's your turn to refute his numbers, but you and IM keep hand-waving it away.

Gallo has provided numbers saying otherwise. It's entirely affordable if used for surveillance purposes instead of for speed tracking.

If it's not for speed tracking (to ticket speeders), then what's the point of spending all that money?

[Grinning Dragon]

Hand wave after hand-wave is all you contribute to an argument you have realized you have no chance of winning. Gallo has provided numbers, and those numbers can be researched and confirmed. You have only provided empty denial and blind assurance in you conviction that only you could possibly be correct. Participate meaningfully in your thread, or step aside.

I refuse to respond in kind; just because Galloism starts essentially fabricating numbers doesn't mean that I too must also resort to such tactics

like I said, there is simply no way it can cost more than universal healthcare + military expenditures of the USA; no reasonable person could believe this

Translation: I don't like the fact that Galloism has put forth well sourced approximating costs to overhead values of continued operations of said fascist government knows best boondoggle of a taxpayers money black-hole that I don't have the time to be bothered with facts or figures to justify any sort of cost let alone come up with a base startup figure to start a testing phase.

[Ifreann]

To install breathalyzers in all new vehicles sold? Nothing really.
Just introduce it as a new car regulation akin to environmental regulations.

If the car companies contracted out and for each individual car had someone install the device, it would still only add 100 to 200 to the cost of the car.
If they contracted out and managed to get a bulk deal, it would be cheaper. But more likely, they'll add the system in-house and get it done for dollars or cents per unit.

The cost shifts to the consumer, but when you factor in the money saved on insurance premiums which are likely to decrease when it becomes apparent drunk driving is no longer a factor, it may break even for consumers.

Breathalyzers have to be calibrated monthly, typically at 60-80 dollars per month per vehicle.

Roughly 720 to 960 dollars per year. Unless my insurance company starts paying me, I'm not going to save that in insurance.

Not to mention that they'll need to be recalibrated if ever the legal limit is changed.

---

You need me to explain speed cameras?

Speed cameras radar sensors are generally recalibrated quite frequently. They are cheaper than cops, but still require substantial maintenance costs and have limited range.

And, as demonstrated by Top Gear, can be beaten by going very, very fast.

---

I'm not sure I understand your "good faith basis" beyond "it doesn't fit what I want to believe ergo it is a lie".

So where is your evidence that your idea can be done within that budget?

it is patently obvious that my proposal, could NOT be far more expensive than the combined total of the entire US military budget and installing nationalised healthcare in the USA

I shouldn't have to be asked to respond to such ludicrous allegations

You won't provide any estimates about what it would cost, but you appear certain that it would be less than the entire US military budget and enacting(not installing) nationalised healthcare in the US. Logically you can't make that kind of determination unless you have some idea what it would cost, so why won't you share that information with us and thus further the inquiry?

Is it because you know we're going to ask you to support your estimates with sources and you don't like sourcing things?

---

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12359854_10153574450191077_7299657164222934707_n.jpg?oh=6d54b5d67f84c62c4f35656b99896884&oe=56DDB49C

Is it just me...or is this accurate of Infected's "proof" and arguments?

Oxygen is actually poisonous in sufficiently high concentration.

---

I wouldn't expect IM to provide a source at all.

I wouldn't expect IM.

No one expects the Mushroom Infectquisition.

---

Since you obviously haven't noticed, Gallo sourced all his numbers. The Canadian education system is perfectly capable of teaching how to multiply two numbers, so the problem is clearly with you.

Now kindly get the holier-than-thou stick out of your perfidious ass and prove that his claims are as ludicrous as you say they are, Mr. Mala Fides.

Frankly, if this was purely a surveillance tactic, and talking about the GPS portion only, this could be done fairly cheaply. Maybe $100 per vehicle if you didn't harden it against tampering. If you hardened it, maybe 150-200. This means an nonhardened system would cost a measly 25 billion in vehicle costs, plus infrastructure costs. Hardened, maybe 50-100% more.

The problem comes in when you want to use the speed data in court. Suddenly it must be much more precise, and since you're using satellite data, the ranges for calculation are much larger and more prone to error. You suddenly have to deal with time dilation, satellite position errors, clock errors, etc. Without a WAAS or RAIM system, you could get any ticket thrown out forever. that makes the system worthless for speeding purposes.

That's what makes the cost skyrocket.

Perhaps literally if this ends up needing more/newer satellites than are already in orbit.

[Galloism]

Breathalyzers have to be calibrated monthly, typically at 60-80 dollars per month per vehicle.

Roughly 720 to 960 dollars per year. Unless my insurance company starts paying me, I'm not going to save that in insurance.

Not to mention that they'll need to be recalibrated if ever the legal limit is changed.

It's also worth note that the BAC level that is legally drunk for this purpose just changed (it used to be 0.1 pretty much across the nation, but gradually changed to 0.08, with Colorado, Delware, and Minnesota being the last three to change just a few years ago), is different for commercial drivers compared with personal, and is generally different for people below age 21. Each of those numbers also varies from state to state.

Here's a link if you want to look at your state:

http://dui.drivinglaws.org/drink-table.php

---

Speed cameras radar sensors are generally recalibrated quite frequently. They are cheaper than cops, but still require substantial maintenance costs and have limited range.

And, as demonstrated by Top Gear, can be beaten by going very, very fast.

Indeed.

---

Frankly, if this was purely a surveillance tactic, and talking about the GPS portion only, this could be done fairly cheaply. Maybe $100 per vehicle if you didn't harden it against tampering. If you hardened it, maybe 150-200. This means an nonhardened system would cost a measly 25 billion in vehicle costs, plus infrastructure costs. Hardened, maybe 50-100% more.

The problem comes in when you want to use the speed data in court. Suddenly it must be much more precise, and since you're using satellite data, the ranges for calculation are much larger and more prone to error. You suddenly have to deal with time dilation, satellite position errors, clock errors, etc. Without a WAAS or RAIM system, you could get any ticket thrown out forever. that makes the system worthless for speeding purposes.

That's what makes the cost skyrocket.

Perhaps literally if this ends up needing more/newer satellites than are already in orbit.

Probably not going to need new satellites (except replacements as they fail). The system we've got is pretty great actually. It's just the math is not trivial, and physics is weird.

31 of the 71 originally launched satellites are still operational, and we need a minimum of 24 for very reliable (not complete) navigation.

It's worth note that, even at the time, for aircraft who lack WAAS there are forecasted zones of incomplete satellite coverage, when there are not enough satellites visible to be accurate enough for non-precision instrument approaches. Generally, you ask for that when you go to get your briefing. If RAIM is not available (due to insufficient satellite coverage), then you must use an alternate ground-based approach, as your GPS is not accurate enough to shoot approaches. This is because the failures have not been uniform across the system.

WAAS satellites are geosynchronous, and have no blackout zones.

But the units that can use WAAS are also over $10,000 each.

[SaintB]

i was about to ask who is going to pay for all of that but Gallo seems to have beat me too it.

But even with that addressed where does the money come from? If its the private owners that must pay for it than congratulations you have just cut people below a certain income level off from their ability to travel. The bulk of the travel for a person living below, at, or near poverty level is going back and forth to work and now they can't make it to their job, putting them in an even worse situation. Will it be publicly funded? You must know what kind of mess that always causes; anything that requires public money immediately becomes unpopular, nobody would support it and the budget for doing that would be nonexistent; look to healthcare, veteran's benefits, the treatment of the homeless, even defense spending and you see that anything that people thinks might raise taxes or raise debt is an anathema, especially to a certain section of the population. Then let us not forget to mention the obvious privacy concerns.

[Ifreann]

i was about to ask who is going to pay for all of that but Gallo seems to have beat me too it.

But even with that addressed where does the money come from? If its the private owners that must pay for it than congratulations you have just cut people below a certain income level off from their ability to travel. The bulk of the travel for a person living below, at, or near poverty level is going back and forth to work and now they can't make it to their job, putting them in an even worse situation. Will it be publicly funded? You must know what kind of mess that always causes; anything that requires public money immediately becomes unpopular, nobody would support it and the budget for doing that would be nonexistent; look to healthcare, veteran's benefits, the treatment of the homeless, even defense spending and you see that anything that people thinks might raise taxes or raise debt is an anathema, especially to a certain section of the population. Then let us not forget to mention the obvious privacy concerns.

It'll come from somewhere, somehow, without taxation.

[Galloism]

You know, doing all the research for this thread makes me REALLY want a WAAS receiver system for my airplane. It's flat out amazing.

Someone get to work and figure out how to make the government pay for it.

[The Two Jerseys]

You know, doing all the research for this thread makes me REALLY want a WAAS receiver system for my airplane. It's flat out amazing.

Someone get to work and figure out how to make the government pay for it.

Have you tried closing your eyes, clicking your heels together three times, and repeating "I wish I had a WAAS receiver!" over and over?

[Galloism]

You know, doing all the research for this thread makes me REALLY want a WAAS receiver system for my airplane. It's flat out amazing.

Someone get to work and figure out how to make the government pay for it.

Have you tried closing your eyes, clicking your heels together three times, and repeating "I wish I had a WAAS receiver!" over and over?

Someone tackle Infected Mushrooms and get me his magic wand.

[The Two Jerseys]

Have you tried closing your eyes, clicking your heels together three times, and repeating "I wish I had a WAAS receiver!" over and over?

Someone tackle Infected Mushrooms and get me his magic wand.

"But Gallo, you don't need IM to get your GPS receiver, you've had the power all along!"

[Gun Manufacturers]

You know, doing all the research for this thread makes me REALLY want a WAAS receiver system for my airplane. It's flat out amazing.

Someone get to work and figure out how to make the government pay for it.

I have the solution. Wait for this to pass, take the GPS receiver out of your car, and mount it in your airplane. The only downside is, you'll be getting a lot of speeding tickets.