All Cars Should Be Tracked and Locked

[Washington Resistance Army]

Nobody uses battleships anymore and aircraft carriers serve a good purpose, this system doesn't.

Public safety is a good purpose.

To a point, this entire idea is far beyond that point and into the realms of pants on head stupidity.

[Galloism]

Public safety is a good purpose.

To a point, this entire idea is far beyond that point and into the realms of pants on head stupidity.

Especially when you're willing to engage in nuclear war in the name of public safety.

That's like fucking for virginity.

[Hydesland]

2. Cars should also have a mandatory auto-lock system that requires a breath-analyzer to unlock and activate. This way, if you are drunk, you can't start the car. The car cannot be started except by a sober party and it is a criminal offence to try to game the system. The policy could save tens of thousands of lives potentially.

While this may be inoffensive, it's just too expensive.

[The Alexanderians]

Nobody uses battleships anymore and aircraft carriers serve a good purpose, this system doesn't.

Public safety is a good purpose.

When it's efficient and within reason, two things your multi-billion dollar proposal is not.

[Galloism]

2. Cars should also have a mandatory auto-lock system that requires a breath-analyzer to unlock and activate. This way, if you are drunk, you can't start the car. The car cannot be started except by a sober party and it is a criminal offence to try to game the system. The policy could save tens of thousands of lives potentially.

While this may be inoffensive, it's just too expensive.

You're probably thinking only of direct costs. There's also indirect costs when the system fails - economic losses from employees not being able to get to work because they don't own a heated garage, for instance.

[Infected Mushroom]

While this may be inoffensive, it's just too expensive.

You're probably thinking only of direct costs. There's also indirect costs when the system fails - economic losses from employees not being able to get to work because they don't own a heated garage, for instance.

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

[Galloism]

You're probably thinking only of direct costs. There's also indirect costs when the system fails - economic losses from employees not being able to get to work because they don't own a heated garage, for instance.

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

That's the tracking system part, which would cost that much if you needed it to be precise enough to use in a court of law. Please refer back to all the tests and calibrations radar guns go through to be precise enough to use in a court of law (already posted). If you have an issue with any particular figure, you're welcome to do up your own cost estimate.

We're just talking about the breathalyzer part.

It's a well-known fact that breathalyzer interlock systems fail in cold weather, due to condensation and freezing of the moisture contained in human breath on critical sensors. We often refer to economic costs of a snowstorm or a hurricane or a piece of legislation to include lost productivity. I don't see why your proposal should not be held to the same standard.

However, those costs would not be borne by the government, but by businesses and individuals.

[The Alexanderians]

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

That's the tracking system part, which would cost that much if you needed it to be precise enough to use in a court of law. Please refer back to all the tests and calibrations radar guns go through to be precise enough to use in a court of law (already posted).

We're just talking about the breathalyzer part.

It's a well-known fact that breathalyzer interlock systems fail in cold weather, due to condensation and freezing of the moisture contained in human breath on critical sensors. We often refer to economic costs of a snowstorm or a hurricane or a piece of legislation to include lost productivity. I don't see why your proposal should not be held to the same standard.

However, those costs would not be borne by the government, but by businesses and individuals.

Which would probably make the burden comparably worse.

[Galloism]

That's the tracking system part, which would cost that much if you needed it to be precise enough to use in a court of law. Please refer back to all the tests and calibrations radar guns go through to be precise enough to use in a court of law (already posted).

We're just talking about the breathalyzer part.

It's a well-known fact that breathalyzer interlock systems fail in cold weather, due to condensation and freezing of the moisture contained in human breath on critical sensors. We often refer to economic costs of a snowstorm or a hurricane or a piece of legislation to include lost productivity. I don't see why your proposal should not be held to the same standard.

However, those costs would not be borne by the government, but by businesses and individuals.

Which would probably make the burden comparably worse.

Eh, that's arguable. After all, generally interlock devices don't fail in the summer (unless the in-vehicle temperature exceeds 180 degrees or so). That can happen - but typically we're talking about the hottest of hot days with the windows rolled up.

In the winter, they fail fairly regularly, which will cost sporadic employee absences. A small business it would be a somewhat rare event that hardly anyone would notice, but if you're staples, you can count on X number of employees being late every day due to interlock devices. That will be reflected in the financial statements during the winter months as an item causing lost revenue or extra expense (depending on how they deal with it).

[The Alexanderians]

Which would probably make the burden comparably worse.

Eh, that's arguable. After all, generally interlock devices don't fail in the summer (unless the in-vehicle temperature exceeds 180 degrees or so). That can happen - but typically we're talking about the hottest of hot days with the windows rolled up.

In the winter, they fail fairly regularly, which will cost sporadic employee absences. A small business it would be a somewhat rare event that hardly anyone would notice, but if you're staples, you can count on X number of employees being late every day due to interlock devices. That will be reflected in the financial statements during the winter months as an item causing lost revenue or extra expense (depending on how they deal with it).

How much does a unit cost anyway?

[Galloism]

Eh, that's arguable. After all, generally interlock devices don't fail in the summer (unless the in-vehicle temperature exceeds 180 degrees or so). That can happen - but typically we're talking about the hottest of hot days with the windows rolled up.

In the winter, they fail fairly regularly, which will cost sporadic employee absences. A small business it would be a somewhat rare event that hardly anyone would notice, but if you're staples, you can count on X number of employees being late every day due to interlock devices. That will be reflected in the financial statements during the winter months as an item causing lost revenue or extra expense (depending on how they deal with it).

How much does a unit cost anyway?

Interlocks?

Well, they're fairly cheap to install, but they have to be calibrated regularly.

According to Guardian (who manufactures interlocks), installation costs $70-150 for the offender (keeping in mind the state still OWNS the interlock device, not the vehicle owner), and it costs $60-80 per month for monitoring and calibration.

http://guardianinterlock.com/blog/break ... ck-device/

I'm having trouble finding what the state pays for the interlocks when it buys them. Give me a few minutes.

[The Alexanderians]

How much does a unit cost anyway?

Interlocks?

Well, they're fairly cheap to install, but they have to be calibrated regularly.

According to Guardian (who manufactures interlocks), installation costs $70-150 for the offender (keeping in mind the state still OWNS the interlock device, not the vehicle owner), and it costs $60-80 per month for monitoring and calibration.

http://guardianinterlock.com/blog/break ... ck-device/

I'm having trouble finding what the state pays for the interlocks when it buys them. Give me a few minutes.

Can't imagine why anyone would willingly pay for it. Intervention yes, but free will?

[Galloism]

Interlocks?

Well, they're fairly cheap to install, but they have to be calibrated regularly.

According to Guardian (who manufactures interlocks), installation costs $70-150 for the offender (keeping in mind the state still OWNS the interlock device, not the vehicle owner), and it costs $60-80 per month for monitoring and calibration.

http://guardianinterlock.com/blog/break ... ck-device/

I'm having trouble finding what the state pays for the interlocks when it buys them. Give me a few minutes.

Can't imagine why anyone would willingly pay for it. Intervention yes, but free will?

No one does. Interlock devices are used for those who have had a DUI or DWI. The court generally gives them an option: suspend your license, or get an interlock device.

Since most people rely on their vehicles to get to work, they take the interlock device.

(incidentally, with roughly 256 million registered vehicles in the United States, we're talking continuing calibration costs - just on the interlock portion - of between 15.3 billion and 20.5 billion per month.)

EDIT: It occurs to me it would be far more relevant with a yearly amount, since we typically think annually when we're talking budgeting. That's between 184.3 billion and 245.7 billion per year. For comparison, we spend about 154 billion for the entire department of agriculture, 72 billion for the department of education, and 140 billion on VA.

[The Alexanderians]

Can't imagine why anyone would willingly pay for it. Intervention yes, but free will?

No one does. Interlock devices are used for those who have had a DUI or DWI. The court generally gives them an option: suspend your license, or get an interlock device.

Since most people rely on their vehicles to get to work, they take the interlock device.

(incidentally, with roughly 256 million registered vehicles in the United States, we're talking continuing calibration costs - just on the interlock portion - of between 15.3 billion and 20.5 billion per month.)

EDIT: It occurs to me it would be far more relevant with a yearly amount, since we typically think annually when we're talking budgeting. That's between 184.3 billion and 245.7 billion per year. For comparison, we spend about 154 billion for the entire department of agriculture, 72 billion for the department of education, and 140 billion on VA.

Think about how many people could be sent to school for that same amount...
That cost is enough to be a department all it's own, it'd be insane to implement. Nevermind the other proposal of court worthy GPS positioning. The computing power required, the technicians to staff it, materials, etc.
And people thought military spending was insane...

[The Two Jerseys]

You're probably thinking only of direct costs. There's also indirect costs when the system fails - economic losses from employees not being able to get to work because they don't own a heated garage, for instance.

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

At least Gallo has a cost estimate.

[Galloism]

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

At least Gallo has a cost estimate.

Also, it's not insane, given what he's trying to do here.

[The Alexanderians]

and I thought your cost estimates couldn't get more mind-bogglingly ridiculous

I mean, its as though you felt the line hadn't yet already been crossed when you said this would cost more than nationalized healthcare + the military

At least Gallo has a cost estimate.

Which is what convinced me that even ignoring the human rights violations concerning surveillance the practicality of this doesn't make it worth it.

[The Two Jerseys]

At least Gallo has a cost estimate.

Also, it's not insane, given what he's trying to do here.

Did you factor in contingency as well?

[Galloism]

Also, it's not insane, given what he's trying to do here.

Did you factor in contingency as well?

Which contingencies? I haven't even factored in infrastructure yet, largely because I don't know how to estimate it. It's such a grand project, I don't even know where to begin (are we using cell phone networks? what will cell companies charge for the use of their network? Will it kill cell phones because of frequency congestion? does it gets its own network? What's the range of the device? Are we going to do step-power like we do in cell phones? How much infrastructure will it take to support this network?)

All I did was cite the cost of the devices in the vehicles themselves. That's literally the beginning number before factoring in all the infrastructure costs, contingency devices, and indirect costs.

[The Alexanderians]

Did you factor in contingency as well?

Which contingencies? I haven't even factored in infrastructure yet, largely because I don't know how to estimate it. It's such a grand project, I don't even know where to begin (are we using cell phone networks? what will cell companies charge for the use of their network? Will it kill cell phones because of frequency congestion? does it gets its own network? What's the range of the device? Are we going to do step-power like we do in cell phones? How much infrastructure will it take to support this network?)

All I did was cite the cost of the devices in the vehicles themselves. That's literally the beginning number before factoring in all the infrastructure costs, contingency devices, and indirect costs.

Even what I know of networking tells me that alone would be worth well past a couple billion. What about the employees meant to monitor it? Dear God the costs...

[Galloism]

Which contingencies? I haven't even factored in infrastructure yet, largely because I don't know how to estimate it. It's such a grand project, I don't even know where to begin (are we using cell phone networks? what will cell companies charge for the use of their network? Will it kill cell phones because of frequency congestion? does it gets its own network? What's the range of the device? Are we going to do step-power like we do in cell phones? How much infrastructure will it take to support this network?)

All I did was cite the cost of the devices in the vehicles themselves. That's literally the beginning number before factoring in all the infrastructure costs, contingency devices, and indirect costs.

Even what I know of networking tells me that alone would be worth well past a couple billion. What about the employees meant to monitor it? Dear God the costs...

I'm sure it would cost well more than a couple billion.

Verizon invests 16-17 billion dollars in infrastructure per year, and they're only one company and don't cover the entire United States. Now, not all of that is wireless, and I can't seem to find any kind of a breakdown as to what portion of it IS wireless, but I'll bet you their wireless infrastructure is worth tens of billions if not over a hundred billion dollars.

A glance at Verizon's Balance Sheet shows 88 billion dollars in equipment.

https://finance.yahoo.com/q/bs?s=VZ+Bal ... eet&annual

There seems to be no way for me to tell what portion is wireless.

[The Two Jerseys]

Did you factor in contingency as well?

Which contingencies? I haven't even factored in infrastructure yet, largely because I don't know how to estimate it. It's such a grand project, I don't even know where to begin (are we using cell phone networks? what will cell companies charge for the use of their network? Will it kill cell phones because of frequency congestion? does it gets its own network? What's the range of the device? Are we going to do step-power like we do in cell phones? How much infrastructure will it take to support this network?)

All I did was cite the cost of the devices in the vehicles themselves. That's literally the beginning number before factoring in all the infrastructure costs, contingency devices, and indirect costs.

In civil engineering, we always multiply the total by a contingency factor just because we might be in a situation like this where we don't have an estimate for the infrastructure costs. At this stage, we'd usually assume an additional 40% of the total just to cover the unknown costs.

[Galloism]

Which contingencies? I haven't even factored in infrastructure yet, largely because I don't know how to estimate it. It's such a grand project, I don't even know where to begin (are we using cell phone networks? what will cell companies charge for the use of their network? Will it kill cell phones because of frequency congestion? does it gets its own network? What's the range of the device? Are we going to do step-power like we do in cell phones? How much infrastructure will it take to support this network?)

All I did was cite the cost of the devices in the vehicles themselves. That's literally the beginning number before factoring in all the infrastructure costs, contingency devices, and indirect costs.

In civil engineering, we always multiply the total by a contingency factor just because we might be in a situation like this where we don't have an estimate for the infrastructure costs. At this stage, we'd usually assume an additional 40% of the total just to cover the unknown costs.

I'd have to go back and recalculate it to be certain, but I think we just exceeded the annual federal budget.

[The Alexanderians]

In civil engineering, we always multiply the total by a contingency factor just because we might be in a situation like this where we don't have an estimate for the infrastructure costs. At this stage, we'd usually assume an additional 40% of the total just to cover the unknown costs.

I'd have to go back and recalculate it to be certain, but I think we just exceeded the annual federal budget.

by several times in the upper cost margins...

[Galloism]

I'd have to go back and recalculate it to be certain, but I think we just exceeded the annual federal budget.

by several times in the upper cost margins...

In retrospect, I don't think a 40% infrastructure cost is in any way reasonable. Since we're talking about the speed and such being GPS based - and precise enough for court - the units cost a lot more than a regular GPS unit would or even a cell phone would. This shifts a lot of the cost to the units themselves.

The infrastructure, by comparison, simply needs to receive and pass along this data. There's very little in the way of calculations. It still will require an impressive network of towers and lines, however.

Maybe 20%.

Which takes us from roughly 3 trillion dollars to 3.6 trillion dollars.

*looks at the 3.7 trillion dollar federal budget*

Ok, not quite. If I did 40%, it would exceed the federal budget, but I really don't think that's reasonable.