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So... America is an oligarchy now

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The Serbian Empire
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Serbian Empire » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:37 pm

Lady Scylla wrote:
Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:But oligarchies are by definition not meritocracies, they are the rich of society exploiting it for their own profits, not for the benefit of society.


ol·i·gar·chy
ˈäləˌɡärkē/
noun
a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.

It isn't solely limited to a "rich elite" (or by actual definition, a Plutocracy)

It's far more often that it is a plutocratic oligarchy. The rich are the only ones with the resources to fight an endless campaign.
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Greater Allidron
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Postby Greater Allidron » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:39 pm

Scandinavian Nations wrote:
Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:But oligarchies are by definition not meritocracies, they are the rich of society exploiting it for their own profits, not for the benefit of society.

The poor man wonders why he is poor. The rich man knows why he is rich.

That's a great quote there.
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Russo-Byzantine Empire
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Postby Russo-Byzantine Empire » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:53 am

Lady Scylla wrote:
Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:But oligarchies are by definition not meritocracies, they are the rich of society exploiting it for their own profits, not for the benefit of society.


ol·i·gar·chy
ˈäləˌɡärkē/
noun
a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.

It isn't solely limited to a "rich elite" (or by actual definition, a Plutocracy)

No, a meritocratic state like that would be a technocracy. Also, the OP has pretty much implied that they are talking about a plutocratic oligarchy.
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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:04 am

Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:
ol·i·gar·chy
ˈäləˌɡärkē/
noun
a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.

It isn't solely limited to a "rich elite" (or by actual definition, a Plutocracy)

No, a meritocratic state like that would be a technocracy. Also, the OP has pretty much implied that they are talking about a plutocratic oligarchy.


A Plutocracy is rule by wealth/wealthy

A Meritocracy is rule by merit

A Technocracy is rule by technical experts.

An Oligarchy is rule by a small group

An Ochlocracy is rule by a Majority

Do you really not know what these terms mean?

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Daburuetchi
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Daburuetchi » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:50 am

Kraylandia wrote:
Daburuetchi wrote:
A riveting and thorough debunking


A thorough debunking was not needed, to suggest that US is an oligarchy is absolutely ridiculous.


Lol Princeton University which had a study that concluded America is an oligarchy would like to have a word with you

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Daburuetchi
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Postby Daburuetchi » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:51 am

Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:
Daburuetchi wrote:
No shit but the logical conclusion to acknowledging we are rulled by a small economic clique is soaking the rich

It's not soaking the rich from the bottom though, it's soaking them from the top. The whole reason oligarchies exist is because elections gave the rich the chance to buy our leaders. What we need is a monarchy, who can't be bought by the wealthy elite because the monarch doesn't owe their power to them.


If you think monarchs didn't kowtow to the church,their feudal vassals and even the nascent bourgeoisie you're kidding yourself.
Last edited by Daburuetchi on Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Russo-Byzantine Empire
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Postby Russo-Byzantine Empire » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:10 am

Daburuetchi wrote:
Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:It's not soaking the rich from the bottom though, it's soaking them from the top. The whole reason oligarchies exist is because elections gave the rich the chance to buy our leaders. What we need is a monarchy, who can't be bought by the wealthy elite because the monarch doesn't owe their power to them.


If you think monarchs didn't kowtow to the church,their feudal vassals and even the nascent bourgeoisie you're kidding yourself.

Only in feudal monarchies, not absolute ones. Louis XIV, for,example, made the nobility his bitch like a boss. You didn't answer my other question, either:
Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:I don't live their, so I wouldn't know. Though I don't see how UK counts seeing as the queen isn't in charge. Unless yo7 forgot the UK is a parliamentary democracy?

Oh, I'm not opposed to parliamentary democracy, just to Republics. It is a historical fact, however, that Absolutism to Constitutionalism leads to less blood than Absolutism to Republicanism. But we're getting off topic. I have a question to all Communists here: have you ever actually met a rich person? Surely you must have, to so brazenly generalize them as all being evil oppressors. Or maybe it's just that you don't know what you're talking about?
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HMS Vanguard
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Postby HMS Vanguard » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:47 am

Russo-Byzantine Empire wrote:
HMS Vanguard wrote:Ability to organise and lead people is a technical skill and, like all technical skills, is unevenly distributed and only partially learnable. All countries are oligarchies run by that part of their population that has considerable organisational skill. Just as most people who learn mathematics in school make no contribution to the further development of mathematics, most people who learn how to vote in school have only illusory influence over the management of their government.

This is not to be lamented. A mathematics developed by the average high school graduate would not have taken us to the moon.

But oligarchies are by definition not meritocracies, they are the rich of society exploiting it for their own profits, not for the benefit of society.

Appointment by merit is a long term inevitability; when too many incapable people accumulate at the top and too many capable people at the bottom, some of them make revolution. In the United States barriers between top and bottom are especially permeable, so the best people tend to rise to the top quickly, rather than remaining trapped below their rightful station, building resentment and making revolution. This may give the US the appearance of being a very stable hereditary aristocracy but the truth is subtly different.

Appointment by merit however says nothing about the intentions of those so appointed. It doesn't mean good people or nice people or people like me being appointed, just people who have the capability to do and retain their jobs. I would say the US is far from a good example of a malicious oligarchy, seeing as how even its poorer citizens live much better than the world average, but benevolence is not required.
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HMS Vanguard
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Postby HMS Vanguard » Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:52 am

Daburuetchi wrote:
Kraylandia wrote:
A thorough debunking was not needed, to suggest that US is an oligarchy is absolutely ridiculous.


Lol Princeton University which had a study that concluded America is an oligarchy would like to have a word with you

The Princeton study IIRC does not very well differentiate between the wealth-oligarchy and merit-oligarchy scenarios however. Its definition of a rich person was just having an upper middle class salary, and didn't control for IQ.

For instance the US's highest paid basketball coach earns $7m/year, 70x the study's cut off for being rich. Meanwhile an NYT staff reporter has a base salary of $99,412/year, which is $588 short of the cut off and doesn't count as "rich" at all. So my question for you is do the policies adopted by the US government more closely resemble the preferences of a NYT staff reporter, or those of pro BB coach John Calipari?
Last edited by HMS Vanguard on Sun Nov 29, 2015 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Sun Nov 29, 2015 8:34 am

HMS Vanguard wrote:So my question for you is do the policies adopted by the US government more closely resemble the preferences of a NYT staff reporter, or those of pro BB coach John Calipari?

Because the reporter does not present his opinions in public. The opinions he presents are those of the rich people owning the company. The ones making far more than both of those two you mentioned put together.
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The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Councilmembers
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Postby Councilmembers » Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:08 am

"America is an oligarchy now."

No. All citizens, regardless of where they were born or their economic status while growing up, have the opportunity to vote and pursue a career in politics themselves by running for office. Before Citizens United, our representatives in Congress passed laws that regulated corporate/private funding of campaigns. And in this election we have candidates such as Democratic Socialist Sen. Bernie Sanders making a strong stand to win their party's nomination and potentially the American presidency.

Do we have money running amock in politics? Yes. But we are by no means an oligarchy.

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The first Galactic Republic
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Anarchy

Postby The first Galactic Republic » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:39 pm

Ketora wrote:So... America is an oligarchy now
...heh... what do you guys think about our new system of government...

Oligarchy is a form of government which means (at least by modern day definition)
The economic elite have far much more political power than the majority, who has little to no power.
When we vote it only chooses which oligarch will take a certain place, the majority of the time the oligarchs only care what the economic elite think and not of the majority.

I'am justing asking if we Americans are going to be okay.

TIl every country is an oligarchy.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:11 pm

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Glorious KASSRD
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Postby Glorious KASSRD » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:31 pm

Internationalist Bastard wrote:It always was, always will be

No it's not.

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Scandinavian Nations
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Postby Scandinavian Nations » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:06 pm

Real clash of the titans in the last two posts.

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Ferdestan
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Postby Ferdestan » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:11 pm

It's not an oligarchy, it's an oiligarchy.

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Ketora
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Postby Ketora » Sat Dec 12, 2015 2:55 pm

Ferdestan wrote:It's not an oligarchy, it's an oiligarchy.

:rofl:
Did you know the only country who has a higher percentage of people in jail than America... Is North Korea?

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Logohnda
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Postby Logohnda » Sat Dec 12, 2015 3:07 pm

Freedom, ha, ha, ha, is nothing more than the mentality that you must have your way. Forget opinions, and forget democracy. We all just must conform, that is simple, let us all have to live a certain way and eliminate all opposition and eventually it is what is excepted and it will be normal and not seem so hell bound. I am not fond that all of the people who surround me feel that they must receive extra than anyone else all must be put at the same level. We must eliminate the ill and we must think about all matters with Utilitarian philosophy. :clap:

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Korhal IVV
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Ex-Nation

Postby Korhal IVV » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:03 am

Ketora wrote:NO REALLY
America is an oligarchy now,
but let's not talk about that,
let's talk about what we think abut oligarchy in general

Its called Capitalism
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Frank Zipper
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Postby Frank Zipper » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:14 am

If Trump gets elected it will be a Stan and Olliegarchy.
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Socialist Tera
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Postby Socialist Tera » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:17 am

It's not an oligarchy, it is a corrupt constitutional republic which has a habit of invading and ruining other countries in the name of profit.
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Korhal IVV
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Postby Korhal IVV » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:20 am

Logohnda wrote:Freedom, ha, ha, ha, is nothing more than the mentality that you must have your way. Forget opinions, and forget democracy. We all just must conform, that is simple, let us all have to live a certain way and eliminate all opposition and eventually it is what is excepted and it will be normal and not seem so hell bound. I am not fond that all of the people who surround me feel that they must receive extra than anyone else all must be put at the same level. We must eliminate the ill and we must think about all matters with Utilitarian philosophy. :clap:

Freedom is a delusion granted to the weak by the strong - Alarak
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Economic Left/Right: -0.13
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Supports: Christianity, economic development, democracy, common sense, vaccines, space colonization, and health programs
Against: Adding 100 genders, Gay marriage in a church, heresy, Nazism, abortion for no good reason, anti-vaxxers, SJW liberals, and indecency
This nation does reflect my real-life beliefs.
My vocabulary is stranger than a Tzeentchian sorceror. Bare with me.

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Zyzzytopia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Zyzzytopia » Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:39 am

This thread should have been made 200 years ago when it actually became one. :p

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