Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Lady Scylla]

One was apparently dead by the time he landed (probably shot at by rebels). I'm not sure on the other, but iirc, he's alive.

I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but rebels may have killed 'em both. Both were reported to be shot dead while parachuting. A graphic video purporting to show the rebels surrounding the body of one of the pilots whilst "glorifying Allah" and reportedly regretted they hadn’t burned him on the spot is also circulating.

However, it was reported that Jahed Ahmad, a representative of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, the rebel group that attacked the pilots, told AP that at least one of the Russian pilots was dead upon landing.

They also just downed a Russian chopper in the area. And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

[Baltenstein]

Would not trust Russia about the information. Their government is a bunch of liars.

Yes, but so is the Turkish government.

[Baltenstein]

Hey, remember that time Syria shot down a Turkish plane and the Turks, Erdogan himself in particular, were complaining about how minor border incursions in such situations are inevitable and can never be a pretext for an attack?

I do.

But four legsTurkey good, two legsRussia baaaaaad.

There's no god and bad in this case. Erdogan and the Vladster are equally despicable.

[Tmutarakhan]

It is mostly Obama that wants Assad gone. Now if Trump was in office, he would be more willing to work with Assad or at least wouldn't get in the way of Assad bombing ISIS.

Obama is quoted as saying that he isn't interested in the concept of "victory" thinking that it is too old fashioned. Barack Obama- "I’m always worried about using the word ‘victory,’ because, you know, it invokes this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur.”

He...He knows Hirohito didn't sign the surrender to MacArthur, right?

MacArthur's first act in Tokyo was to issue a summons to Hirohito. The published photograph with Hirohito looking deferential to MacArthur rather than the reverse shocked Japanese sentiments, as it was intended to.

[Visegradian Poland]

Would not trust Russia about the information. Their government is a bunch of liars.

Yes, but so is the Turkish government.

I would sooner trust Turkey.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I do.

But four legsTurkey good, two legsRussia baaaaaad.

There's no god and bad in this case. Erdogan and the Vladster are equally despicable.

Any time we can make an Animal Farm reference with regards to Russian diplomacy, we will do so.

[Tmutarakhan]

I don't know if this was mentioned yet, but rebels may have killed 'em both. Both were reported to be shot dead while parachuting. A graphic video purporting to show the rebels surrounding the body of one of the pilots whilst "glorifying Allah" and reportedly regretted they hadn’t burned him on the spot is also circulating.

However, it was reported that Jahed Ahmad, a representative of the 10th Brigade in the Coast, the rebel group that attacked the pilots, told AP that at least one of the Russian pilots was dead upon landing.

They also just downed a Russian chopper in the area. And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

According to a Russian-language news-site that has not led me badly wrong before, a contractor attempting to rescue the living pilot was shot and killed by rebels on the ground.

[Novus America]

He...He knows Hirohito didn't sign the surrender to MacArthur, right?

MacArthur's first act in Tokyo was to issue a summons to Hirohito. The published photograph with Hirohito looking deferential to MacArthur rather than the reverse shocked Japanese sentiments, as it was intended to.

Yeah but that was after the signing. Hirohito was not a signatory. But this is typical of Obama. He says many things that are just wrong.

[Ganos Lao]

And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

All leading to the future betrayal of the Kurdish people. Because there's no way NATO will put 'em over their own, guaranteed.

[Valaran]

-same info as posted above-

[Valaran]

And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

All leading to the future betrayal of the Kurdish people.

We've been doing that for a long time. Pretty much since WWI.

[Novus America]

They also just downed a Russian chopper in the area. And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

According to a Russian-language news-site that has not led me badly wrong before, a contractor attempting to rescue the living pilot was shot and killed by rebels on the ground.

The Turkmen are not turning the pilot over without a fight. Nor should they. Russia is an enemy of their people. It is fight or die for them. Shooting the pilot in the air was wrong.

But the Turkmen do not just have to roll over and die.

[Myrensis]

Russia is not our ally. Russia is fighting both our enemy ISIS and our friends. And Russia's goal is to prop up Assad, we want him gone.

It is mostly Obama that wants Assad gone. Now if Trump was in office, he would be more willing to work with Assad or at least wouldn't get in the way of Assad bombing ISIS.

Uh, no. I'm pretty sure Trump is alone in that respect. "Assad is a bad guy and, as the biggest and best and most perfect good guys, we must stop him!" has been a major component of Republican calls for more direct action in Syria for years. This isn't just some pet project of Obamas.

Obama is quoted as saying that he isn't interested in the concept of "victory" thinking that it is too old fashioned. Barack Obama- "I’m always worried about using the word ‘victory,’ because, you know, it invokes this notion of Emperor Hirohito coming down and signing a surrender to MacArthur.”

He's entirely correct. People have been pointing this out since the beginning of the "War on Terror". Terror has no borders that can be crossed. There is no organized army to be met on the field of battle and crushed. There is no Prime Minister of Terror who can be forced to sign a surrender on behalf of all Terrorians that requires all armed forces of Terror to lay down their arms.

While the Hirohito thing is a bit fuzzy, his point is that there is no clear standard for 'victory' against an abstract concept. We could declare 'victory' in the War on Terror tomorrow, or 50 years from now, or 100 years from now..and it would make no practical difference.

Which, ya know, he actually explained in the other half of that interview.

[Novus America]

And it looks like NATO is willing to take the side of Turkey afterall.

All leading to the future betrayal of the Kurdish people. Because there's no way NATO will put 'em over their own, guaranteed.

We have little choice. We cannot dump Turkey. And Kurdistan's economy relies on Turkey. We have to work with Turkey. One can dream the HDP could win. But the whole situation is fucked. The Kurds hate Assad too. And are friends with the Turkmen militas.

[Visegradian Poland]

Russia doesn't give back Poland's plane that mysteriously crashed with no member of the Polish government surviving: is no souvenir poland
Russian plane goes down over Egypt: gib plane nao!
what's the next step?

[Ganos Lao]

All leading to the future betrayal of the Kurdish people.

We've been doing that for a long time. Pretty much since WWI.

Of course, but what I meant is that the Kurdish demands for an independent Kurdistan (Iraqi) are a given at this point, but we all know that the Turks, etc will not settle for this. And while the Turks, etc are holding them down yet again, the Kurds will appeal to the West, but led by America, they will refuse to send any aid.

Thus the Kurds, like the Poles, will feel betrayed, and they will hold out on their own. It's just one layer of the shit cake that we will be watching the region's poor bastards choke to death on, because the West will be washing their hands clean. I've said it time and time again that no one has any real plans for reconstruction.

Just watch. When ISIS is finally dealt with, the West will just blunder yet again, provoking yet another aggravation of the conditions that led to such a group's rise in the first place.

But hey, at least we'll still get our oil. Because alternative energy isn't being adopted any time soon, that's for sure.

[Baltenstein]

He's entirely correct. People have been pointing this out since the beginning of the "War on Terror". Terror has no borders that can be crossed. There is no organized army to be met on the field of battle and crushed. There is no Prime Minister of Terror who can be forced to sign a surrender on behalf of all Terrorians that requires all armed forces of Terror to lay down their arms.

While that may be true for terrorism as a concept, it's not true for ISIS. Unlike AQ, they do have state-like qualities, with their own territory, cities, military bases, a standing army and a capital. This makes it easier for the rest of the world to grab them by the throat and crush them.
Too bad the various rivalries are preventing that from happening though.

[Tmutarakhan]

While the metaphor is far from perfect, Putin needs to be more careful waving his metaphorical dick around and sticking it in everyone's face.

Did you even look at the radar map?



The Russian jet only just clipped a tiny corner of Turkish airspace while obviously in transit from one part of Syria to another part of Syria (located only a few km away).

This wasn't Putin waving his metaphorical genitals around, this was a Russian pilot taking a shortcut or maybe flying a little further north than planned, and Turkey going all "YOU SET ONE FOOT ON MY LAND, I KEEEEL YOU".

That's right. It is also exactly how Russia handles planes which take a shortcut over Russian airspace.

[New Carloso]

Russia doesn't give back Poland's plane that mysteriously crashed with no member of the Polish government surviving: is no souvenir poland
Russian plane goes down over Egypt: gib plane nao!
what's the next step?

I don't think there was much of a plane to give back exactly. And plane crashes have a tendency to kill everyone onboard.

[The Emerald Dawn]

He's entirely correct. People have been pointing this out since the beginning of the "War on Terror". Terror has no borders that can be crossed. There is no organized army to be met on the field of battle and crushed. There is no Prime Minister of Terror who can be forced to sign a surrender on behalf of all Terrorians that requires all armed forces of Terror to lay down their arms.

While that may be true for terrorism as a concept, it's not true for ISIS. Unlike AQ, they do have state-like qualities, with their own territory, cities, military bases, a standing army and a capital. This makes it easier for the rest of the world to grab them by the throat and crush them.
Too bad the various rivalries are preventing that from happening though.

ISIS came out of AQ, which came out of the mujahid movement, which came out of salafist thought which came out of....

We've been dancing this tango for a long time globally, and every time someone thinks they can just militarily stamp it out, they've been proven to be quite wrong.

[Visegradian Poland]

Russia doesn't give back Poland's plane that mysteriously crashed with no member of the Polish government surviving: is no souvenir poland
Russian plane goes down over Egypt: gib plane nao!
what's the next step?

I don't think there was much of a plane to give back exactly. And plane crashes have a tendency to kill everyone onboard.

Yes but they should give back parts for observation. Also, a video was uploaded of people shooting the people who survived, and the uploader was murdered. Bit suspicious, eh? But I'll stop derailing.

[United Marxist Nations]

Did you even look at the radar map?



The Russian jet only just clipped a tiny corner of Turkish airspace while obviously in transit from one part of Syria to another part of Syria (located only a few km away).

This wasn't Putin waving his metaphorical genitals around, this was a Russian pilot taking a shortcut or maybe flying a little further north than planned, and Turkey going all "YOU SET ONE FOOT ON MY LAND, I KEEEEL YOU".

That's right. It is also exactly how Russia handles planes which take a shortcut over Russian airspace.

Like?

[Geilinor]

I do.

But four legsTurkey good, two legsRussia baaaaaad.

There's no god and bad in this case. Erdogan and the Vladster are equally despicable.

The fact that Russian planes aren't being more careful is on the Vladster.

[Wallenburg]

Well, shit.

[Rusozak]

That's right. It is also exactly how Russia handles planes which take a shortcut over Russian airspace.

Like?

It was soviet-era, but still.