Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Yes, that's fair enough. Some are.



We're talking about "rebels" as you call them here. Not the Assad regime, yes the Assad regime has done some bad things but still better than Islamic fundamentalist scum.



They are still terrorists, and Russia is definitely going to fight back against them to avenge their pilot.

No, fighting for survival does not make you a terrorist. This was a war crime, not an act of terrorism.

Not a war crime. Taking down the Russian plane is entirely in accordance with international law, especially concerning the Draft Articles on the Responsibilities of States. If another nation violates your sovereign territory, that can be seen as an act of aggression. Acts of aggression can be countered with force of arms. Turkey acted according to international law. If Russia decides to invade, however, that's another thing entirely. But they won't, certainly not over a single jet. So, this thing will drizzle out like nothing ever happened.

[United Marxist Nations]

The map Const provided from the BBC indicates that it was about 8 km outside Turkish airspace, and only went through about three kilometers of Turkish airspace. So, the missile was either 1) fired in 9 seconds flat, or 2) fired sometime in the 24 seconds afterward. Either way, Turkish action was very hasty, and it was very clear the plane was leaving.

The Russian jet was likely not traveling at max speed when it entered and moved about Turkish air space. For time and place of shoot down compared to time and place inside turkey we are going to have to wait for more details. I've seen like three different reports on all that so far.

Which would mean that it took much longer not only in getting out of Turkish airspace, but also in the approach to where it was shot down. As missiles move very fast, that actually makes it look worse for Turkey, because the missile wouldn't have taken very long to traverse the (16 km? I got about that from measuring the scale on Const's map against the radar overlay, does anyone have concrete data).

[Esternial]

Don't use metaphors if you don't know how to use metaphors properly.

Feel free to correct me. Please, go ahead.
Show us how it's done.

Kid, I cannae be bothered.

[Novus America]

Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

Next time Turkish pilots must be more careful too.

No. Not if they did nothing wrong.

[Kraylandia]

Feel free to correct me. Please, go ahead.
Show us how it's done.

Kid, I cannae be bothered.

Aye, he's a dafty, eh? you turned scottish lol

[Valaran]

Economic costs in reduced Russian tourism are an immediate start.

But this reaction will mostly come on the diplomatic front, where Russia will attempt to outmanoeuvre Turkey and keep Assad/Syrian Regime in power against the Turkish backed rebels. This either increases the instability on the Turkish border, or ensures the regime's increased stability, or both. I'd also look to their competing interests over the Caucasus, and around the region. Its possible Turkey may become increasingly diplomatically isolated.

Russia needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Russia. What about Turkish stream? Russia pissed off Ukraine, now Turkey. Angry people now control the gas flows to Southern Europe.

Actually, neither need each other that much. And that pipeline was noted to exceed demand, well before the oil supply glut and the plunge in prices rendered it uneconomical for the moment. Its hardly a major issue for Putin (or for Erdogan, incidentally).

[Baltenstein]

Economic costs in reduced Russian tourism are an immediate start.

But this reaction will mostly come on the diplomatic front, where Russia will attempt to outmanoeuvre Turkey and keep Assad/Syrian Regime in power against the Turkish backed rebels. This either increases the instability on the Turkish border, or ensures the regime's increased stability, or both. I'd also look to their competing interests over the Caucasus, and around the region. Its possible Turkey may become increasingly diplomatically isolated.

Russia needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Russia. What about Turkish stream? Russia pissed off Ukraine, now Turkey. Angry people now control the gas flows to Southern Europe.

Something tells me ths pipeline isn't going to happen.

[Valaran]

does anyone have concrete data).

Too early, I imagine.

[Novus America]

No, fighting for survival does not make you a terrorist. This was a war crime, not an act of terrorism.

Not a war crime. Taking down the Russian plane is entirely in accordance with international law, especially concerning the Draft Articles on the Responsibilities of States. If another nation violates your sovereign territory, that can be seen as an act of aggression. Acts of aggression can be countered with force of arms. Turkey acted according to international law. If Russia decides to invade, however, that's another thing entirely. But they won't, certainly not over a single jet. So, this thing will drizzle out like nothing ever happened.

I was not talking about Turkey. Turkey committed no war crime.

The Turkmen militias shooting the pilot in the air was a war crime.

[United Marxist Nations]

does anyone have concrete data).

Too early, I imagine.

Well, if my impressions of the map are correct, then it would likely mean that, even if the plane was travelling at maximum speed, the missile was fired after it had already left Turkish airspace, and, if the plane was at a more regular cruising speed, as much as 20+ seconds after it had left.

[Novus America]

Russia needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Russia. What about Turkish stream? Russia pissed off Ukraine, now Turkey. Angry people now control the gas flows to Southern Europe.

Actually, neither need each other that much. And that pipeline was noted to exceed demand, well before the oil supply glut and the plunge in prices rendered it uneconomical for the moment. Its hardly a major issue for Putin (or for Erdogan, incidentally).

True. But Erdogan has more leverage than Putin. Putin needs that pipeline not because of economics. The pipeline was solely to troll Ukraine.

[Valaran]

Too early, I imagine.

Well, if my impressions of the map are correct, then it would likely mean that, even if the plane was travelling at maximum speed, the missile was fired after it had already left Turkish airspace, and, if the plane was at a more regular cruising speed, as much as 20+ seconds after it had left.

I'm reasonably certain it was fired before, or that not everyone would have realised whether it had recrossed the border or not (hardly a big glowing line in the sky after all).

[Novus America]

They can if they can prove a violation. The issue with the Greek Turkey border is it is not clearly demarcated. You have to be sure before you shoot.

And Turkey and Greece are allies. You are more careful with allies than you are with adversaries.

Fatal incidents in the Greek-Turkish airspace have happened in the past.

Very true. I was just pointing out the Syria Turkey and Greek Turkey borders were different situations. Greece still has a right to self defense.

[New Carloso]

Huh

I'm guessing that the Su-24 only passed through that little notch of land. How long could it have spent in the territory? 18 seconds? That's hardly good enough reason for Turkey to intercept the plane.

I'm sorry! But you can't say that I fucked your girlfriend! My dick was only for 30 seconds inside her.
You want to beat me for that? Unjustified! It was only 30 seconds m8!

My eyes.

My beautiful virgin eyes.

[Valaran]

Actually, neither need each other that much. And that pipeline was noted to exceed demand, well before the oil supply glut and the plunge in prices rendered it uneconomical for the moment. Its hardly a major issue for Putin (or for Erdogan, incidentally).

True. But Erdogan has more leverage than Putin. Putin needs that pipeline not because of economics. The pipeline was solely to troll Ukraine.

Putin doesn't need the pipeline either really; he can troll Ukraine much more simply, by squeezing the oil that flows into that nation from Russia (and he has done so in the past).

In essence, Russia and Turkey are both expanding their influence across quite a broad swathe, and that could easily result in a power struggle. Arguably, it already has in Syria, hence these sorts of spats.

[Prussoslavia]

It is obvious that the Turks are lying. Both Russian pilots had ejected and landed 4 kilometers from the Turkish border. One of them was killed by the terrorists exactly.
The Turks are serious losses, because Russian aircrafts are bombing oil infrastructure. This attack is both a revenge, and the protection of their shadow incomes.

Planes are fast. Missiles are faster. Planes and pilots do not fall straight down. The shot could have been fired inside Turkish airspace.

The Russian Defense Ministry has already announced that the Russian aircraft did not cross Turkish airspace.
And even if they overlap, to shoot down the aircraft without warning - it is a crime on the part of the Turks.
They claim that 10 times warned our plane on the radio, but it is certainly false. Our pilots are not fools to ignore such warnings.

Think about it: if the intersection of Turkish airspace - a matter of few seconds, whether it was necessary to shoot down them? No, this is clearly malice.

Putin had already accused Turkey by State-accomplicer for terrorists.

[Valaran]

Fatal incidents in the Greek-Turkish airspace have happened in the past.

As I understood it the last instance of that was in 2006, where the jets accidentally collided (as opposed to being shot down), and that both nations agreed to rein that stuff in afterwards. So I wouldn't call it that similar.

I'd be up for the last part happening here though.

[Baltenstein]

Planes are fast. Missiles are faster. Planes and pilots do not fall straight down. The shot could have been fired inside Turkish airspace.

The Russian Defense Ministry has already announced that the Russian aircraft did not cross Turkish airspace.
And even if they overlap, to shoot down the aircraft without warning - it is a crime on the part of the Turks.
They claim that 10 times warned our plane on the radio, but it is certainly false. Our pilots are not fools to ignore such warnings.

Think about it: if the intersection of Turkish airspace - a matter of few seconds, whether it was necessary to shoot down them? No, this is clearly malice.

Putin had already accused Turkey by State-accomplicer for terrorists.

To be honest, I don't think you have to warn foreign combat aircraft that enters your airspace. It's just more polite to do so.
And Russia has violated Turkish airspace several times in the past few months, each time followed by Turkish protests.

[The Enlightened Transhumanists]

What do you mean? Russia isn't going to go to war with Turkey over this. If anything, Turkish officials might be summoned to Moscow for a "please I'll explain", Turkey will repeat that it was within its rights to protect its airspace and Russia will deny this. It's not the first time the Russian military has accidentally wandered into another country uninvited.

If the Turkish Air Force had to warn the pilots of the Su-24 for 10 minutes saying "cross this imaginary line and we'll shoot you" and the Russians didn't listen, Moscow has got no one else but its own pilots to blame.

I really doubt that Russia's jet crossed Turkish territory. We'll find out the truth in the coming days, but I'm actually going to back Russia's side of the argument here (something I never thought I'd say, considering my "Russophobia"), that the jet was above Syrian territory the entire time.

No Russia won't invade Turkey, but it's pretty obvious that Turkey isolating themselves even further with this move. Turkey has no friends.

Turkey used to be friends with America but then the cold war ended.

[Belhorizon]

True. But Erdogan has more leverage than Putin. Putin needs that pipeline not because of economics. The pipeline was solely to troll Ukraine.

Putin doesn't need the pipeline either really; he can troll Ukraine much more simply, by squeezing the oil that flows into that nation from Russia (and he has done so in the past).

In essence, Russia and Turkey are both expanding their influence across quite a broad swathe, and that could easily result in a power struggle. Arguably, it already has in Syria, hence these sorts of spats.

Wouldn't these pipelines be necessary for Russia if the Ukraine conflict turns sour and they lose their pipelines to Europe?

[Crusader occupied mecca]

It may not be the Islamic State, but there is still terrorist groups there that need to be dealt with.

And a government which is killing their own citizens because they went on the streets for a right on fair and free votes and more power for the parliament isn't terrorism?

> peaceful protests
> Islamic population

Pick one and only one.

[Baltenstein]

Fatal incidents in the Greek-Turkish airspace have happened in the past.

As I understood it the last instance of that was in 2006, where the jets accidentally collided (as opposed to being shot down), and that both nations agreed to rein that stuff in afterwards.

While that was indeed the most recent incident, shotdowns have also happened in the Nineties.

And the Turkish airforce hasn't really stopped violating Greek airspace, since Turkey continues to not recognize Greece's territorial claims.

[Planita]

I'm thinking that Obama doesn't realise that half of our allies in the fight against Daesh hates the other half.

[Novus America]

Russia won't react kindly.
Particularly interesting was Putin's accusations that Turkey buys oil from ISIS, however veiled.
I think a perfect retaliation would be to hike gas prices for a while, while stopping the alleged oil flow into Turkey, if such a flow exists.

As for identifying the aircraft; their F-16s could've easily done so. Then again, Russia breached Turkish airspace several times, so shooting down the craft in this case isn't exactly unavoidable.

Let me ask a question,
If the Lebanese Government finally shot down one of the Israeli jets that violate our airspace daily, would the international reaction be the same?
(And violate as in flying the entirety of Lebanese territory. Not a couple of kilometers.)

Nobody would complain if Lebanon did. And that only proves the point. Act weak and get trampled. It is a dog eat dog world.

And Turkey does not need Russia for gas. They have Azerbaijan.

[Valaran]

The Russian Defense Ministry has already announced that the Russian aircraft did not cross Turkish airspace.

Think about it: if the intersection of Turkish airspace - a matter of few seconds

So, either they did cross Turkish airspace, or they didn't.

The Russian Defense Ministry has already announced that the Russian aircraft did not cross Turkish airspace.
Our pilots are not fools to ignore such warnings.

Presupposes best Russian intentions and veracity.

And even if they overlap, to shoot down the aircraft without warning - it is a crime on the part of the Turks.
They claim that 10 times warned our plane on the radio, but it is certainly false.
No, this is clearly malice.

Presupposes worst Turkish intentions and veracity.


Fairly strong case of emotional bias here.