Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Novus America]

No. The different groups are different. Some are better, some worse.
And the Assad regime commits just as much terrorism and heinous crimes.
Shooting the pilot was wrong. But the Turkmen must fight back or die. Do you expect them to just sit back and be killed? Have their towns destroyed?

The different groups are different. Some are better, some worse.

Yes, that's fair enough. Some are.

And the Assad regime commits just as much terrorism and heinous crimes.

We're talking about "rebels" as you call them here. Not the Assad regime, yes the Assad regime has done some bad things but still better than Islamic fundamentalist scum.

But the Turkmen must fight back or die.

They are still terrorists, and Russia is definitely going to fight back against them to avenge their pilot.

No, fighting for survival does not make you a terrorist. This was a war crime, not an act of terrorism.

[Imperializt Russia]

Since we don't quite know, the warnings might also have started just before the jet entered Turkish airspace. Only a possibility though.

Well yeah, that's the point at which you start issuing warnings about entering airspace. You are warned to not do it.

[Belhorizon]

I still think the Turks are bullshitting.
They're now claiming that at the time of the shootdown, the planes were of unknown nationality.
What a convenient way to excuse them of downing a Russian plane.

Did the Su-24 identify itself?

No. And that was a mistake by the Russians.
But shooting down a plane? As opposed to escorting it out?
I still vividly remember the Turk outrage when the Israelis boarded their peace flotilla. Why the double standards?

[Valaran]

Since we don't quite know, the warnings might also have started just before the jet entered Turkish airspace. Only a possibility though.

Well yeah, that's the point at which you start issuing warnings about entering airspace. You are warned to not do it.

mhm. I was merely pointing that out since the direction of discussion had hitherto only been predicated on the warnings being issued while the jet was in Turkish airspace, not before. It would go quite some way to explain the full five minutes of warnings.

[Shy Guyia]

ALL NATIONS: WARNING

Nothing. Just to get your attention[s]. Nupar is new to this world. Can't we all have peace?

Let me recap the description of the General forum: For Discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Anyways, back to topic.

[Novus America]

Did the Su-24 identify itself?

No. And that was a mistake by the Russians.
But shooting down a plane? As opposed to escorting it out?
I still vividly remember the Turk outrage when the Israelis boarded their peace flotilla. Why the double standards?

Well double standards are common.

And you have to shoot. If you merely escort them out they come right back. Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Did the Su-24 identify itself?

No. And that was a mistake by the Russians.
But shooting down a plane? As opposed to escorting it out?
I still vividly remember the Turk outrage when the Israelis boarded their peace flotilla. Why the double standards?

Ok, then the plane was of unknown nationality, because without an IFF response, or the pilot saying "Yo, we're totally Ruskies", you can't know who's at the stick.

The flight path changed a lot, allowing the time frame to make some sense.

I understand that you don't like the Turkey folks, but this isn't exactly illuminati level cloak-and-dagger stuff.

[Paddy O Fernature]

No. And that was a mistake by the Russians.
But shooting down a plane? As opposed to escorting it out?
I still vividly remember the Turk outrage when the Israelis boarded their peace flotilla. Why the double standards?

Well double standards are common.

And you have to shoot. If you merely escort them out they come right back. Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

Sadly, I don't see those fools getting wiser anytime soon, regardless of losses.

[Valaran]

And you have to shoot. If you merely escort them out they come right back. Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

But there is undeniably a cost to such an approach. I'm more than certain Russia will react in ways that hurt Turkey, though the extent remains to be determined.

[United Marxist Nations]

Are you allowed to shoot them down when they aren't in your airspace?

A Su-24's max airspeed is 1,300 km an hour, or a km every 3 seconds or so. I'm assuming that once the missile was fired the Russian jet when to max speed in an attempt to avoid a shoot down. The jet was shot down 1 km outside of Turkish airspace, and crashed 3-4 km outside of Turkey. So the Russian jet was almost certainly fired upon while still inside Turkey, and only exited Turkish airspace a couple of seconds before it was struck.

The map Const provided from the BBC indicates that it was about 8 km outside Turkish airspace, and only went through about three kilometers of Turkish airspace. So, the missile was either 1) fired in 9 seconds flat, or 2) fired sometime in the 24 seconds afterward. Either way, Turkish action was very hasty, and it was very clear the plane was leaving.

[Blakullar]

I think the response of a friend of mine to this sums it up best:

Oh boy, here we fucking go.

[Prussoslavia]

It is obvious that the Turks are lying. Both Russian pilots had ejected and landed 4 kilometers from the Turkish border. One of them was killed by the terrorists exactly.
The Turks are serious losses, because Russian aircrafts are bombing oil infrastructure. This attack is both a revenge, and the protection of their shadow incomes.

[Belhorizon]

Russia won't react kindly.
Particularly interesting was Putin's accusations that Turkey buys oil from ISIS, however veiled.
I think a perfect retaliation would be to hike gas prices for a while, while stopping the alleged oil flow into Turkey, if such a flow exists.

As for identifying the aircraft; their F-16s could've easily done so. Then again, Russia breached Turkish airspace several times, so shooting down the craft in this case isn't exactly unavoidable.

Let me ask a question,
If the Lebanese Government finally shot down one of the Israeli jets that violate our airspace daily, would the international reaction be the same?
(And violate as in flying the entirety of Lebanese territory. Not a couple of kilometers.)

[Novus America]

And you have to shoot. If you merely escort them out they come right back. Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

But there is undeniably a cost to such an approach. I'm more than certain Russia will react in ways that hurt Turkey, though the extent remains to be determined.

I do not see what Russia can do to Turkey. And Russia will push until their is push back. Show Russia any leniency and Russia will walk all over you. Russia only respects force.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Russia won't react kindly.
Particularly interesting was Putin's accusations that Turkey buys oil from ISIS, however veiled.
I think a perfect retaliation would be to hike gas prices for a while, while stopping the alleged oil flow into Turkey, if such a flow exists.

As for identifying the aircraft; their F-16s could've easily done so. Then again, Russia breached Turkish airspace several times, so shooting down the craft in this case isn't exactly unavoidable.

Let me ask a question,
If the Lebanese Government finally shot down one of the Israeli jets that violate our airspace daily, would the international reaction be the same?
(And violate as in flying the entirety of Lebanese territory. Not a couple of kilometers.)

The F-16 could identify it as an Su-24, they could not identify the nationality of the pilot, or its intentions.

The international reaction to any situation is going to depend on the specifics of the situation.

[United Marxist Nations]

But there is undeniably a cost to such an approach. I'm more than certain Russia will react in ways that hurt Turkey, though the extent remains to be determined.

I do not see what Russia can do to Turkey. And Russia will push until their is push back. Show Russia any leniency and Russia will walk all over you. Russia only respects force.

>Russophobes will defend this

[Spirit of Hope]

A Su-24's max airspeed is 1,300 km an hour, or a km every 3 seconds or so. I'm assuming that once the missile was fired the Russian jet when to max speed in an attempt to avoid a shoot down. The jet was shot down 1 km outside of Turkish airspace, and crashed 3-4 km outside of Turkey. So the Russian jet was almost certainly fired upon while still inside Turkey, and only exited Turkish airspace a couple of seconds before it was struck.

The map Const provided from the BBC indicates that it was about 8 km outside Turkish airspace, and only went through about three kilometers of Turkish airspace. So, the missile was either 1) fired in 9 seconds flat, or 2) fired sometime in the 24 seconds afterward. Either way, Turkish action was very hasty, and it was very clear the plane was leaving.

The Russian jet was likely not traveling at max speed when it entered and moved about Turkish air space. For time and place of shoot down compared to time and place inside turkey we are going to have to wait for more details. I've seen like three different reports on all that so far.

[Baltenstein]

Russia released a series of photos of its central war room, from where the air strikes in Syria are coordinated:

Rumours that satellite pictures of Erdogan's favorite shisha bar were targeted on the central screen are so far unconfirmed.

[Valaran]

But there is undeniably a cost to such an approach. I'm more than certain Russia will react in ways that hurt Turkey, though the extent remains to be determined.

I do not see what Russia can do to Turkey. And Russia will push until their is push back. Show Russia any leniency and Russia will walk all over you. Russia only respects force.

Economic costs in reduced Russian tourism are an immediate start.

But this reaction will mostly come on the diplomatic front, where Russia will attempt to outmanoeuvre Turkey and keep Assad/Syrian Regime in power against the Turkish backed rebels. This either increases the instability on the Turkish border, or ensures the regime's increased stability, or both. I'd also look to their competing interests over the Caucasus, and around the region. Its possible Turkey may become increasingly diplomatically isolated.

[Novus America]

It is obvious that the Turks are lying. Both Russian pilots had ejected and landed 4 kilometers from the Turkish border. One of them was killed by the terrorists exactly.
The Turks are serious losses, because Russian aircrafts are bombing oil infrastructure. This attack is both a revenge, and the protection of their shadow incomes.

Planes are fast. Missiles are faster. Planes and pilots do not fall straight down. The shot could have been fired inside Turkish airspace.

[Prussoslavia]

Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

Next time Turkish pilots must be more careful too.

[The Emerald Dawn]

The map Const provided from the BBC indicates that it was about 8 km outside Turkish airspace, and only went through about three kilometers of Turkish airspace. So, the missile was either 1) fired in 9 seconds flat, or 2) fired sometime in the 24 seconds afterward. Either way, Turkish action was very hasty, and it was very clear the plane was leaving.

The Russian jet was likely not traveling at max speed when it entered and moved about Turkish air space. For time and place of shoot down compared to time and place inside turkey we are going to have to wait for more details. I've seen like three different reports on all that so far.

To further this, if the Su-24 was flying at max speed the pilots would find themselves woken up by their mechanics the next morning while hanging from the maintenance bay's engine lifts.

Unless you have to, you don't go full burn on those.

[Valaran]

Russia needs to learn to stop this shit.

Next time Russian pilots will be more careful.

Next time Turkish pilots must be more careful too.

As long as both are (and construct a common system to ensure this won't happen again), then that would be the best outcome.

[Novus America]

I do not see what Russia can do to Turkey. And Russia will push until their is push back. Show Russia any leniency and Russia will walk all over you. Russia only respects force.

Economic costs in reduced Russian tourism are an immediate start.

But this reaction will mostly come on the diplomatic front, where Russia will attempt to outmanoeuvre Turkey and keep Assad/Syrian Regime in power against the Turkish backed rebels. This either increases the instability on the Turkish border, or ensures the regime's increased stability, or both. I'd also look to their competing interests over the Caucasus, and around the region. Its possible Turkey may become increasingly diplomatically isolated.

Russia needs Turkey more than Turkey needs Russia. What about Turkish stream? Russia pissed off Ukraine, now Turkey. Angry people now control the gas flows to Southern Europe.

[Baltenstein]

That's why I'm hoping that Greece gets encouraged to start shooting down Turkish jets.

They can if they can prove a violation. The issue with the Greek Turkey border is it is not clearly demarcated. You have to be sure before you shoot.

And Turkey and Greece are allies. You are more careful with allies than you are with adversaries.

Fatal incidents in the Greek-Turkish airspace have happened in the past.