Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Novus America]

Honestly, Republicans have no fucking reason to bitch about Obama from 2008-2012. You guys nominated McCain. And then added Palin. And your other challenger, Romney, alienated a good chunk of his supporters. It's not that Obama won the elections, it's that Republicans handed them to him on a silver platter. And now, when Republicans have a chance, Bush is still in the running. As are Carson and Fiorina. Are you guys trying to lose?

Only they do, because Republicans are going to naturally disagree with almost all of Obama's decisions. Now McCain chose Palin as his VP but he was doomed from the start, the mood of the country was heavily in the Democrats' favor, no Republican candidate would've won in 2008. Now 2012 was doable but what happened is that the Republican base didn't show up to vote whilst Mitt Romney maximized the independent vote but didn't get enough minorities on his side. There were 5 million fewer Republican votes than the Democrats.

Now Jeb Bush is what the Republican elite is actually pinning their hopes on. They want to derail Donald Trump from making it past the primaries who has consistently been the frontrunner thus far. Carson polls in 2nd place which is why he's still in.

This is off topic. Bush has no chance. The only hope for the establishment is Rubio.

[Uxupox]

Russia saw it in such terms. And many in the US did. See trying to be friends with everyone leaves you with no friends. See Turkey with the Muslim brotherhood debacle.

A little rivalry can be a good thing. Again actually in many ways the Soviets made us stronger. We were certainly stronger in the 50s and 80s than we are now.

There is no reason to be friends with everyone. If Russia wants to complete with us fine. Competition makes America stronger. We are weakest when we have no competitors, and strongest under pressure.

We were most certainly not stronger in the 1950s or 1850s, or the 1980s or 1880s, than we are now, so what "50s and 80s" are you talking about?

I think he means that only the USSR and the USA had any type of influence in the world during the 50's and during this time it's lesser.

[The Emerald Dawn]

We were most certainly not stronger in the 1950s or 1850s, or the 1980s or 1880s, than we are now, so what "50s and 80s" are you talking about?

1750s, Back under our glorious Empire *nods*

You mean when we were being taxed out the ass to pay for your foreign gallivanting?

[Valaran]

1750s, Back under our glorious Empire *nods*

You mean when we were being taxed out the ass to pay for your foreign gallivanting?

Just so

[Shofercia]

Nordstream was caused by something other than Schroeder's incompetence?

Having a stable supply of energy is equivalent to incompetence?

[Novus America]

We were most certainly not stronger in the 1950s or 1850s, or the 1980s or 1880s, than we are now, so what "50s and 80s" are you talking about?

I think he means that only the USSR and the USA had any type of influence in the world during the 50's and during this time it's lesser.

Yes. I am referring to relative strength. In the 50s we look at our industry. Or in the 80s we dominated computers. Compare it to now.
We we ahead of everyone then. But we got lazy. And lost our competiveness.

You run your best in a race. You have no competitors you get lazy. And clearly I was talking about the 1950s and 1980s.

Although this is getting off topic but Deindustrialization and letting our military decline was really stupid.

[Saiwania]

The Republican Elite need to understand that Bush cannot win the general election.

The Republican elite thinks that Donald Trump can't win a general election either, but they are still under the impression that Jeb Bush would have the best chance out of all of the candidates, the most moderate and liberal of the field that can theoretically win in spite of the base, after all- the US in general is becoming more liberal. Jeb Bush is going to try to win with as little support from the Republican base as he can possibly manage.

[SD_Film Artists]

Yes, Russia should do that, but it's still disproportionate to shoot at aircraft just because they moved over Turkey's airspace for 17 seconds. The UK doesn't react like that even when Russia makes blatent tests to our airspace.

You're an island. Testing the borders of a zone claimed out at sea is not the same as flying over your land. If a Russian plane buzzed over Dover, just clipping the corner of the island a little tiny bit, it would be blown to smithereens.

Yes it would, because like you say there's a gap of sea where the RAF would have already established that the Russian jet is up to something more than the usual airspace-testing. Where as Turkey's "sea" is Syrian airspace and thus Russian jets (along with other nation's aircraft) could be expected to be over Syria without any requirement to be escorted by Turkish fighters.

[New Werpland]

Nordstream was caused by something other than Schroeder's incompetence?

Having a stable supply of energy is equivalent to incompetence?

Being a pushover was pretty shameful given his position.

At least he's found a job that allows him to be just that now.

[Novus America]

The Republican Elite need to understand that Bush cannot win the general election.

The Republican elite thinks that Donald Trump can't win a general election either, but they are still under the impression that Jeb Bush would have the best chance out of all of the candidates, the most moderate and liberal of the field that can theoretically win in spite of the base, after all- the US in general is becoming more liberal. Jeb Bush is going to try to win with as little support from the Republican base as he can possibly manage.

Dude he is polling at 4%. He is a washed up loser. And the US is more "liberal" in some ways, more "conservative" in others. But way off topic.

[Novus America]

Having a stable supply of energy is equivalent to incompetence?

Being a pushover was pretty shameful given his position.

At least he's found a job that allows him to be just that now.

In all fairness he was more corrupt than a pushover.

[Cartagine]

According to the Russian ambassador to France the second pilot was picked up by the Syrian army

Lets hope that's true so those disgusting Turks and their "brothers" can't get their hands on him.

Some turkish poster on another forum said that Russia was bombing the Turkmens which made the Turks not happy. They tried to persuade Russia not do this and the plane was shot down to protect Turkmens.

I heard that aswell, i doubt it will help the Turkmen now htough as Russia will probably start bombing them even more.

Any proof that the Russian airplane flew in Turkish airspace

Here's a link with an annotated radar map showing the Russian airplane enter Turkish airspace.

and any proof Turkey warned them at all?

It also seems that the US was listening...

Col. Steve Warren, spokesman for the U.S. military in Baghdad, said the U.S. heard communication between Turkish and Russian pilots and could confirm that Turkish pilots issued 10 verbal warnings before the plane was shot down.

(Source)

With proof i mean unbiased proof.
Russia still denies any violation of Turkish airspace and the only surviving pilot claims that no warning had been given by Turkey.

[Spirit of Hope]

Some turkish poster on another forum said that Russia was bombing the Turkmens which made the Turks not happy. They tried to persuade Russia not do this and the plane was shot down to protect Turkmens.

I heard that aswell, i doubt it will help the Turkmen now htough as Russia will probably start bombing them even more.

Here's a link with an annotated radar map showing the Russian airplane enter Turkish airspace.



It also seems that the US was listening...



(Source)

With proof i mean unbiased proof.
Russia still denies any violation of Turkish airspace and the only surviving pilot claims that no warning had been given by Turkey.

The WSJ and CNN are both saying Turkey has released taps of their warning the Russian jets, CNN says that NATO has heard the tapes.

[Esperantujo 2]

I think I should add a clarification about IS's allies. The murderers of the pilots were clearly ideological as well as military allies of IS. They shouted "Allah Akhbar" when they murdered the pilots. However, you don't have to be an ideological ally to be a military ally. In WW2 from 1941 to 1943,4 or 5, The USSR was a military ally of Britain and USA, while Finland was a military ally of Nazi Germany. The aims of some of the opposition groups may be pro-democratic and opposed to IS, but they're not fighting IS, only the Syrian army. Syrian National Council/ Free Syrian Army is problematical, because they are supported by Saudi Arabia, a regime that's hardly in a position to lecture Assad about human rights or democracy. It seems that the only forces confronting IS on the ground are the Kurds, who've also resumed their armed conflict in Turkey after a long ceasefire. The only force likely to confront them in the near future is the Syrian army, but the various opposition factions are in the way.
It's likely that bombing IS is doing more harm than good, by providing IS with a propaganda tool. The introduction of foreign ground troops would make things much worse.
Assad has a bad human rights record, but how is he to be replaced? There are discussions going on, and it's likely that Assad may be persuaded to make concessions. But if he goes now, Syria will share the fate of Somalia and Libya.
(Incidentally for those who call for the replacement of Putin, be careful what you wish for. The opposition Liberal Democrat and Communist parties are more extreme.)

[Esperantujo 2]

It's also possible that the Turkish government may be somewhat paranoid about its frontiers. Hatay province where the incident allegedly took place is a tongue of land jutting into North West Syria. The Kurdish conflict is well known, and can also be imagined that Armenia, Georgia and Greece, if not Azerbaijan and Bulgaria would also claim bits and Turkey would suffer the fate that Poland suffered with its 4 partitions.

[Esperantujo 2]

It's also possible that the Turkish government may be somewhat paranoid about its frontiers. Hatay province where the incident allegedly took place is a tongue of land jutting into North West Syria. The Kurdish conflict is well known, and can also be imagined that Armenia, Georgia and Greece, if not Azerbaijan and Bulgaria would also claim bits and Turkey would suffer the fate that Poland suffered with its 4 partitions.

I forgot to add that some Syrian factions lay claim that province.

[Cartagine]

I heard that aswell, i doubt it will help the Turkmen now htough as Russia will probably start bombing them even more.



With proof i mean unbiased proof.
Russia still denies any violation of Turkish airspace and the only surviving pilot claims that no warning had been given by Turkey.

The WSJ and CNN are both saying Turkey has released taps of their warning the Russian jets, CNN says that NATO has heard the tapes.

Still don't buy it, i rather hear it from an independent & neutral source.

[Parti Ouvrier]

I heard that aswell, i doubt it will help the Turkmen now htough as Russia will probably start bombing them even more.



With proof i mean unbiased proof.
Russia still denies any violation of Turkish airspace and the only surviving pilot claims that no warning had been given by Turkey.

The WSJ and CNN are both saying Turkey has released taps of their warning the Russian jets, CNN says that NATO has heard the tapes.

Turkey is playing a dangerous game in this.
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/1 ... rder_vijay
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... .tqszdv1zt

'Turkey has been bombing the bases of the Kurdish militias which have had the most battlefield success against IS. The Turkish border, now closed to Syrian refugees - as reported by Human Rights Watch - is not closed to IS fighters or to fighters of the extremist proxy armies, some overtly supported by Turkey and the Gulf states.'
- See more at: http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/commen ... 679ll.dpuf

[Exelia]

The WSJ and CNN are both saying Turkey has released taps of their warning the Russian jets, CNN says that NATO has heard the tapes.

Turkey is playing a dangerous game in this.
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/1 ... rder_vijay
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... .tqszdv1zt

'Turkey has been bombing the bases of the Kurdish militias which have had the most battlefield success against IS. The Turkish border, now closed to Syrian refugees - as reported by Human Rights Watch - is not closed to IS fighters or to fighters of the extremist proxy armies, some overtly supported by Turkey and the Gulf states.'
- See more at: http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/commen ... 679ll.dpuf

To be totally fair, the ones they are bombing(the YPG, not the Peshmerga) are the armed wing of a recognized terrorist group.

[Baltenstein]

Also, few choices? Cut trade with Turkey, diplomatically embarrass Erdogan, create an anti-Turkish alliance from everyone that Erdogan pissed off, recognize all of Cyprus as belonging to Nicosia, establish a blockade of North Cyprus with Greece and Cyprus, fuck with Erdogan's Palestine Program, (Israel would love Russia doing that,) recognize a Kurdish state within Turkey, SpetzNaz Basic training to Kurds within Russia, "losing" Soviet weaponry in areas controlled by Kurds, etc, etc, etc. Russia's got option.

Of course, Russia is not going to do any of those things.

[Wdkckms]

It's sort of funny because this is the sort of reason that Russia used to justify hopping right into Crimea (except that Ukraine wasn't attacking Russian Crimeans... and also Russia has been ignoring Turkey's airspace for a while).

But the Crimea is full of Russians. Historically, it has been Russian since it was annexed to Imperial Russia. When Soviet premier Khrushchev, a Ukrainian, ceded Crimea from Soviet Russia to Soviet Ukraine he did it without even holding a referendum. Khrushchev must have known that it did not really matter if Crimea was part of Soviet Ukraine or Soviet Russia since in the end it would still be under the Soviet flag. But this all changed when Ukraine decided to separate. No longer would the Russians have any control over Crimea.

For what its worth, at least the Russians had a referendum.

Khruschev was not an Ukrainian. This is a myth.

Though it is true he loved more Ukraine than Russia.

[Parti Ouvrier]

Turkey is playing a dangerous game in this.
http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2015/1 ... rder_vijay
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence ... .tqszdv1zt

'Turkey has been bombing the bases of the Kurdish militias which have had the most battlefield success against IS. The Turkish border, now closed to Syrian refugees - as reported by Human Rights Watch - is not closed to IS fighters or to fighters of the extremist proxy armies, some overtly supported by Turkey and the Gulf states.'
- See more at: http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/commen ... 679ll.dpuf

To be totally fair, the ones they are bombing(the YPG, not the Peshmerga) are the armed wing of a recognized terrorist group.

I'm not sure why either.

[Valaran]

To be totally fair, the ones they are bombing(the YPG, not the Peshmerga) are the armed wing of a recognized terrorist group.

Actually, I'm not sure that is true. The YPG are simply the armed forces of the Syrian Kurds, and their links to the PKK are disputed. Erdogan likes to portray them as PKK, so he can kill them.

[Spirit of Hope]

The WSJ and CNN are both saying Turkey has released taps of their warning the Russian jets, CNN says that NATO has heard the tapes.

Still don't buy it, i rather hear it from an independent & neutral source.

You probably aren't going to get that. If you don't buy Turkish and NATO sources because of their bias then you can't trust Russian sources for the same reason. The Russian navigator is rather unlikely to admit that he and the pilot ignored warnings from Turkey that resulted in them getting shot down.

At least Turkey has provided audio tapes and images from radar equipment.

[Exelia]

To be totally fair, the ones they are bombing(the YPG, not the Peshmerga) are the armed wing of a recognized terrorist group.

Actually, I'm not sure that is true. The YPG are simply the armed forces of the Syrian Kurds, and their links to the PKK are disputed. Erdogan likes to portray them as PKK, so he can kill them.

Really? I had been fairly certain they were.

Not that even if they were I'd want Erdogan bombing them.