Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Valaran]

In 2009, Russia and the west weren't so antagonistic to each other. One could argue that this freeze has only really gotten so bitter after 2014.

It was going downhill before that.

Going downhill, yeah, but nothing so notably troublesome.

Again our goals are mutually exclusive.

But they weren't in as much direct conflict at the time, and this wasn't as clear as before.

Think about a rival sports team. You goal is to get more points. You cannot negotiate while playing against each other. We have no common goal with Russia. Again Russia is more interested fighting Turks than ISIS.

It wasn't thought of in such terms then. Now it increasingly is, but not then. I wouldn't retrospectively put those terms on 2009. After all, IS was no threat back then.

[Shofercia]

Right, like Bush, whom Putin manhandled like a bitch. Or would you prefer McCain, who'd get routed and humiliated. Honestly, Republicans have no fucking reason to bitch about Obama from 2008-2012. You guys nominated McCain. And then added Palin. And your other challenger, Romney, alienated a good chunk of his supporters. It's not that Obama won the elections, it's that Republicans handed them to him on a silver platter. And now, when Republicans have a chance, Bush is still in the running. As are Carson and Fiorina. Are you guys trying to lose?

Also, where did I call for a full embargo? And Russia doesn't need a Turkish gas corridor. It'd be nice, but if it requires dealing with Erdogan, it's exactly what Russia doesn't need.

Did I ever say I liked Republicans? Or the disaster of Bush? I know how badly the Republicans fucked up. That does not make Obama's foreign policy less shitty.

And it is deal with Erdogan, or Poroshenko.

Or neither. Nord Stream is expanding. Did you miss that?

You would prefer to be constantly antagonistic with someone who could be an ally in the middle east?

Russia will never be an ally anywhere. Bombing Turkmen villages is not helping against ISIS. Russia hates us. They will never forgive us for "winning" the Cold War.

Not true:

Why?
It made their leaders obscenely rich.

You ask them why. But just ask Shof. They are super butt hurt over it. And their people are less happy than the kleptocrats. Yeltsin was good for the kleptocrats. Not everyone else.

Not all of those who are super rich are idiotic kleptocrats. There's Abramovich, Prohorov, Usmanov, just to name a few. The relationship became really negative after it came out that USAID funded Chesno, whose actions resulted in the overthrow of Yanukovich. Nuland blabbing about bringing a Neo Nazi to power, Tignyabok, certainly didn't help.

[Uxupox]

I wouldn't have said it was friendly, but it wasn't clear at the time that such a breach was inevitable, and I'm sure in the eyes of the new president, the situation looked reparable. Hindsight is 20/20, and I think the present situation certainly tints how we look at Russia-West relations then. At the time, I remember relative cooperation on Iran and the G20 as well as Georgia.

On Syria there was a divide, but I think that only became more pronounced as Assad didn't fall; the more common assumption in the early stages was that he would, so it didn't matter that Russia liked him. It only worsened when Russia stepped up aid, and even then, I think we didn't care that much until Ukraine hit.

/generalised views; the west obviously had many differing opinions.

I think Bush leaving office kind of destroyed the Republicans in America.
The only person they could think of to follow Bush was McCain, a man who wasn't apparently good enough to beat Bush in 2000. Then they've just rapidly and scarily devolved, pandering to nutjobs and xenophobes.

I feel like I might miss the days when the worst prospect the Republicans had to offer us was Bush. We was a dope, but comical. His advisors board was pure evil. But Bush, himself, was measured. Not articulate, but reasonable.
I only realised this when I found a White House press release dated September 14th, 2001 (date may be off) where he specifically warned against turning 9/11 into a race war, a war against Islam or a clash of cultures. Indeed quoting the Quran, in a White House press release from the president, to push this end.

What did we get after that? McCain, Palin, the guy so incensed with Obama's run at President he thought he could run without knowing what Libya was, and fucking Trump. Oh, and Jeb Bush, who just seems like more of Bush. Unsurprisingly.

America scares me more than fucking ISIS, I'll tell you that much.

Both sides of the isle have shit candidates. I have not seen any candidate that is articulate enough to be competent.

[Shofercia]

Russia can target others, but it won't do much. This is mostly Russian tourists.

The Turkish tourist industry is already suffering due to IS and the Middle East; no doubt. But, either way, $1-3 billion is hardly a major loss to the Turkish economy.

It's going to be much more than that. There are also indirect costs, future investment, payment on loans, etc. Don't forget how quickly the subprimes hit the US economy.

You moved the goal posts by toning down your proposals. And no we did not need a reset. Sure the Georgia thing was a little embarrassing. Although Georgia had no chance in hell so it was not that big a deal. But the Soviets embarrassed us to. One embarrassemrnt does not require a plastic toy being used in foreign relations. Plus the reset only hurt us. It did not help one bit.

How did I tone down my proposal? How did the reset hurt the US?

[Imperializt Russia]

I think Bush leaving office kind of destroyed the Republicans in America.
The only person they could think of to follow Bush was McCain, a man who wasn't apparently good enough to beat Bush in 2000. Then they've just rapidly and scarily devolved, pandering to nutjobs and xenophobes.

I feel like I might miss the days when the worst prospect the Republicans had to offer us was Bush. We was a dope, but comical. His advisors board was pure evil. But Bush, himself, was measured. Not articulate, but reasonable.
I only realised this when I found a White House press release dated September 14th, 2001 (date may be off) where he specifically warned against turning 9/11 into a race war, a war against Islam or a clash of cultures. Indeed quoting the Quran, in a White House press release from the president, to push this end.

What did we get after that? McCain, Palin, the guy so incensed with Obama's run at President he thought he could run without knowing what Libya was, and fucking Trump. Oh, and Jeb Bush, who just seems like more of Bush. Unsurprisingly.

America scares me more than fucking ISIS, I'll tell you that much.

Both sides of the isle have shit candidates. I have not seen any candidate that is articulate enough to be competent.

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

[The Emerald Dawn]

Both sides of the isle have shit candidates. I have not seen any candidate that is articulate enough to be competent.

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

BURN THE HERETIC!

[Shofercia]

Both sides of the isle have shit candidates. I have not seen any candidate that is articulate enough to be competent.

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

Had a chance. Then decided to raise payroll taxes.

[Valaran]

I think Bush leaving office kind of destroyed the Republicans in America.
The only person they could think of to follow Bush was McCain, a man who wasn't apparently good enough to beat Bush in 2000. Then they've just rapidly and scarily devolved, pandering to nutjobs and xenophobes.

I feel like I might miss the days when the worst prospect the Republicans had to offer us was Bush. We was a dope, but comical. His advisors board was pure evil. But Bush, himself, was measured. Not articulate, but reasonable.
I only realised this when I found a White House press release dated September 14th, 2001 (date may be off) where he specifically warned against turning 9/11 into a race war, a war against Islam or a clash of cultures. Indeed quoting the Quran, in a White House press release from the president, to push this end.

What did we get after that? McCain, Palin, the guy so incensed with Obama's run at President he thought he could run without knowing what Libya was, and fucking Trump. Oh, and Jeb Bush, who just seems like more of Bush. Unsurprisingly.

America scares me more than fucking ISIS, I'll tell you that much.

I tend not to debate US politics on NSG, but I mostly agree.

I respect McCain, though mostly for pre-2000s actions and beliefs. Naturally, I criticise his decisions and views in 2008. I must also add that whatever Bush's personal decency, who he allowed to influence him makes me rather condemn his tenure in office. That was a nightmare. Also, his decency is marred by his relative incompetency, even taking the advisors aside.

Trump scares the fuck out of me, but a lot (if not all) of the GOP candidates do.

(sorry for the derailment)

[Uxupox]

Both sides of the isle have shit candidates. I have not seen any candidate that is articulate enough to be competent.

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

He is good but his economic policy is utter sewerage. The guy fucking lies in his own webpage about the devaluation of Chinese currency.

[Shofercia]

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

He is good but his economic policy is utter sewerage. The guy fucking lies in his own webpage about the devaluation of Chinese currency.

It's tradition for US presidential candidates to show ignorance of foreign policy

[Imperializt Russia]

Sanders.

*runs for cover*

He is good but his economic policy is utter sewerage. The guy fucking lies in his own webpage about the devaluation of Chinese currency.

Oh God, it's almost as though he might be a politician!

Seriously though, it's as close as a platform that actually helps American citizens as you're getting in 2016 following Obama's inroads.
My personal opinion is that "conservative" and generally most "rightist" economic policies are "utter sewage". They've been demonstrably proven wrong time and again, but thirty, forty year old mantras are still repeated as gospel despite thirty, forty years of watching them not work as advertised.

[Shofercia]

You would prefer to be constantly antagonistic with someone who could be an ally in the middle east?

Russia will never be an ally anywhere. Bombing Turkmen villages is not helping against ISIS. Russia hates us. They will never forgive us for "winning" the Cold War.

Russia was ready to ally US over the War in Afghanistan. Until Bush invaded Iraq, Russia's aid to the US was solid.

[Novus America]

Did I ever say I liked Republicans? Or the disaster of Bush? I know how badly the Republicans fucked up. That does not make Obama's foreign policy less shitty.

And it is deal with Erdogan, or Poroshenko.

Or neither. Nord Stream is expanding. Did you miss that?

Russia will never be an ally anywhere. Bombing Turkmen villages is not helping against ISIS. Russia hates us. They will never forgive us for "winning" the Cold War.

Not true:

You ask them why. But just ask Shof. They are super butt hurt over it. And their people are less happy than the kleptocrats. Yeltsin was good for the kleptocrats. Not everyone else.

Not all of those who are super rich are idiotic kleptocrats. There's Abramovich, Prohorov, Usmanov, just to name a few. The relationship became really negative after it came out that USAID funded Chesno, whose actions resulted in the overthrow of Yanukovich. Nuland blabbing about bringing a Neo Nazi to power, Tignyabok, certainly didn't help.

Nordstream alone is not enough. Plus then all your eggs are in one basket. Quickly losing all your friends. Pissing off Ukraine and now Turkey? Turkey was actually your best hope for a friend, Erdogan was trying to make friends with Russia. Bombing Turkmen at the Turkish border and crossing was stupid.

And even at the highest our ratings in Russia were still underwater but that also proves only one thing. Russia only likes us when we are super weak. And no, Nukand and the "Neo-Nazis" is just a made up boogeyman for the domestic audience in Russia.

But yeah, who appointed Putin? Yeltsin. And yes a know you love Putin's kleptocrats although at least they understand the need for PR and giving a little back, unlike Yeltsin's.

[Valaran]

Russia can target others, but it won't do much. This is mostly Russian tourists.

The Turkish tourist industry is already suffering due to IS and the Middle East; no doubt. But, either way, $1-3 billion is hardly a major loss to the Turkish economy.

It's going to be much more than that. There are also indirect costs, future investment, payment on loans, etc. Don't forget how quickly the subprimes hit the US economy.

I was debating tourism in those posts, since it is the principal action that Russia has taken so far.

The rest is impossible to guess right now, since it very much depends on Russia's reaction and a number of undecided factors, though the link to US subprime loans/mortgages is tenuous. A more important one would be hot money in Turkey (a notable weakness for it), doubtless some of which is Russian. This has already flowed out in droves due to various things, but it could now be accelerated. I would need to check up Russian FDI in Turkey, net trade, and so on, since I lack the stats.

[Shofercia]

He is good but his economic policy is utter sewerage. The guy fucking lies in his own webpage about the devaluation of Chinese currency.

Oh God, it's almost as though he might be a politician!

Seriously though, it's as close as a platform that actually helps American citizens as you're getting in 2016 following Obama's inroads.
My personal opinion is that "conservative" and generally most "rightist" economic policies are "utter sewage". They've been demonstrably proven wrong time and again, but thirty, forty year old mantras are still repeated as gospel despite thirty, forty years of watching them not work as advertised.

I'd seriously consider him if he didn't raise any taxes. It's ok to close loopholes, but not to raise taxes.

[Valaran]

He is good but his economic policy is utter sewerage. The guy fucking lies in his own webpage about the devaluation of Chinese currency.

It's tradition for US presidential candidates to show ignorance of foreign policy

Which is a real bloody shame :/

[Novus America]

Russia will never be an ally anywhere. Bombing Turkmen villages is not helping against ISIS. Russia hates us. They will never forgive us for "winning" the Cold War.

Russia was ready to ally US over the War in Afghanistan. Until Bush invaded Iraq, Russia's aid to the US was solid.

Russia had no choice then. And was much weaker.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Russia will never be an ally anywhere. Bombing Turkmen villages is not helping against ISIS. Russia hates us. They will never forgive us for "winning" the Cold War.

Not true:

GOD DAMN IT LABEL YOUR AXES.

[Saiwania]

Honestly, Republicans have no fucking reason to bitch about Obama from 2008-2012. You guys nominated McCain. And then added Palin. And your other challenger, Romney, alienated a good chunk of his supporters. It's not that Obama won the elections, it's that Republicans handed them to him on a silver platter. And now, when Republicans have a chance, Bush is still in the running. As are Carson and Fiorina. Are you guys trying to lose?

Only they do, because Republicans are going to naturally disagree with almost all of Obama's decisions. Now McCain chose Palin as his VP but he was doomed from the start, the mood of the country was heavily in the Democrats' favor, no Republican candidate would've won in 2008. Now 2012 was doable but what happened is that the Republican base didn't show up to vote whilst Mitt Romney maximized the independent vote but didn't get enough minorities on his side. There were 5 million fewer Republican votes than the Democrats.

Now Jeb Bush is what the Republican elite is actually pinning their hopes on. They want to derail Donald Trump from making it past the primaries who has consistently been the frontrunner thus far. Carson polls in 2nd place which is why he's still in.

[Shofercia]

Or neither. Nord Stream is expanding. Did you miss that?




Not true:






Not all of those who are super rich are idiotic kleptocrats. There's Abramovich, Prohorov, Usmanov, just to name a few. The relationship became really negative after it came out that USAID funded Chesno, whose actions resulted in the overthrow of Yanukovich. Nuland blabbing about bringing a Neo Nazi to power, Tignyabok, certainly didn't help.

Nordstream alone is not enough. Plus then all your eggs are in one basket. Quickly loading all your friends. Pissing off Ukraine and now Turkey? Turkey was actually your best hope for a friend, Erdogan was trying to make friends with Russia. Bombing Turkmen at the Turkish border and crossing was stupid.

And even at the highest our ratings in Russia were still underwater but that also proves only one thing. Russia only likes us when we are super weak. And no, Nukand and the "Neo-Nazis" is just a made up boogeyman for the domestic audience in Russia.

But yeah, who appointed Putin? Yeltsin. And yes a know you love Putin's kleptocrats although at least they understand the need for PR and giving a little back, unlike Yeltsin's.

Turkey was our best hope for a friend? What're you smoking? Nordstream is backed by Germany, which is a reliable trading partner. Nordstream survived sanctions. Also, there are more continents than just Europe to sell natural gas to. Giving back a little? They give back more than they keep. Of course they keep more than Yeltsin's, because they make more than Yeltsin's. Putin realized that if he invested in the economy, instead of giving it all away on bribes, the economy would grow, and he could get more by skimming a smaller percentage. And Yeltsin "appointed" Putin at a proverbial gunpoint. As I've repeatedly pointed out, the anti-Yeltsin faction merged with the pro-Yeltsin faction to from pro-Putin United Russia. The anti-Yeltsin faction was/is pro-Putin.

The highest ratings were over 50%, how the fuck's that underwater? You need 50% + 1 for majority, so having that is most definitely not underwater, nor was the US weak. The US is actually at its weakest point right now, where approval for the US is lower in Russia than every before. The approval drop started when USAID's Ukrainian meddling came out in the press.

[Novus America]

It was going downhill before that.

Going downhill, yeah, but nothing so notably troublesome.

Again our goals are mutually exclusive.

But they weren't in as much direct conflict at the time, and this wasn't as clear as before.

Think about a rival sports team. You goal is to get more points. You cannot negotiate while playing against each other. We have no common goal with Russia. Again Russia is more interested fighting Turks than ISIS.

It wasn't thought of in such terms then. Now it increasingly is, but not then. I wouldn't retrospectively put those terms on 2009. After all, IS was no threat back then.

Russia saw it in such terms. And many in the US did. See trying to be friends with everyone leaves you with no friends. See Turkey with the Muslim brotherhood debacle.

A little rivalry can be a good thing. Again actually in many ways the Soviets made us stronger. We were certainly stronger in the 50s and 80s than we are now.

There is no reason to be friends with everyone. If Russia wants to complete with us fine. Competition makes America stronger. We are weakest when we have no competitors, and strongest under pressure.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Going downhill, yeah, but nothing so notably troublesome.



But they weren't in as much direct conflict at the time, and this wasn't as clear as before.



It wasn't thought of in such terms then. Now it increasingly is, but not then. I wouldn't retrospectively put those terms on 2009. After all, IS was no threat back then.

Russia saw it in such terms. And many in the US did. See trying to be friends with everyone leaves you with no friends. See Turkey with the Muslim brotherhood debacle.

A little rivalry can be a good thing. Again actually in many ways the Soviets made us stronger. We were certainly stronger in the 50s and 80s than we are now.

There is no reason to be friends with everyone. If Russia wants to complete with us fine. Competition makes America stronger. We are weakest when we have no competitors, and strongest under pressure.

We were most certainly not stronger in the 1950s or 1850s, or the 1980s or 1880s, than we are now, so what "50s and 80s" are you talking about?

[Shofercia]

Russia was ready to ally US over the War in Afghanistan. Until Bush invaded Iraq, Russia's aid to the US was solid.

Russia had no choice then. And was much weaker.

Russia had no choice but to aid the US? So if Russia didn't aid the US, but rather, declared neutrality, Swiss style, what would the US do?

Honestly, Republicans have no fucking reason to bitch about Obama from 2008-2012. You guys nominated McCain. And then added Palin. And your other challenger, Romney, alienated a good chunk of his supporters. It's not that Obama won the elections, it's that Republicans handed them to him on a silver platter. And now, when Republicans have a chance, Bush is still in the running. As are Carson and Fiorina. Are you guys trying to lose?

Only they do, because Republicans are going to naturally disagree with almost all of Obama's decisions. Now McCain chose Palin as his VP but he was doomed from the start, the mood of the country was heavily in the Democrats' favor, no Republican candidate would've won in 2008. Now 2012 was doable but what happened is that the Republican base didn't show up to vote whilst Mitt Romney maximized the independent vote but didn't get enough minorities on his side. There were 5 million fewer Republican votes than the Democrats.

Now Jeb Bush is what the Republican elite is actually pinning their hopes on. They want to derail Donald Trump from making it past the primaries who has consistently been the frontrunner thus far. Carson polls in 2nd place which is why he's still in.

The Republican Elite need to understand that Bush cannot win the general election.

[New Werpland]

Nordstream alone is not enough. Plus then all your eggs are in one basket. Quickly loading all your friends. Pissing off Ukraine and now Turkey? Turkey was actually your best hope for a friend, Erdogan was trying to make friends with Russia. Bombing Turkmen at the Turkish border and crossing was stupid.

And even at the highest our ratings in Russia were still underwater but that also proves only one thing. Russia only likes us when we are super weak. And no, Nukand and the "Neo-Nazis" is just a made up boogeyman for the domestic audience in Russia.

But yeah, who appointed Putin? Yeltsin. And yes a know you love Putin's kleptocrats although at least they understand the need for PR and giving a little back, unlike Yeltsin's.

Turkey was our best hope for a friend? What're you smoking? Nordstream is backed by Germany, which is a reliable trading partner. Nordstream survived sanctions. Also, there are more continents than just Europe to sell natural gas to. Giving back a little? They give back more than they keep. Of course they keep more than Yeltsin's, because they make more than Yeltsin's. Putin realized that if he invested in the economy, instead of giving it all away on bribes, the economy would grow, and he could get more by skimming a smaller percentage. And Yeltsin "appointed" Putin at a proverbial gunpoint. As I've repeatedly pointed out, the anti-Yeltsin faction merged with the pro-Yeltsin faction to from pro-Putin United Russia. The anti-Yeltsin faction was/is pro-Putin.

The highest ratings were over 50%, how the fuck's that underwater? You need 50% + 1 for majority, so having that is most definitely not underwater, nor was the US weak. The US is actually at its weakest point right now, where approval for the US is lower in Russia than every before. The approval drop started when USAID's Ukrainian meddling came out in the press.

Nordstream was caused by something other than Schroeder's incompetence?

[Valaran]

We were most certainly not stronger in the 1950s or 1850s, or the 1980s or 1880s, than we are now, so what "50s and 80s" are you talking about?

1750s, Back under our glorious Empire *nods*