Reports: Turkish F-16s shoot down Russian Su-24

[Alvecia]

Have you checked to see if they do? Sure the title of the piece says what you say, but what does the actual information say. Dakini has read through it and found that it does not. So either you disagree that it does not back up your claims, or you agree and must find one that does.
Where do you stand?

I disagree with Dakini. There we go.

Why?

[Outer Sparta]

No, but I'm saying that Dakini says my sources have no credibility whatsoever. Not even my Al Jazeera one.

Can you read? I said that Al Jazeera was fine, but it does not say what you claim it does.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you actually saying I can't read?

[Dakini]

No, but I'm saying that Dakini says my sources have no credibility whatsoever. Not even my Al Jazeera one.

Have you checked to see if they do? Sure the title of the piece says what you say, but what does the actual information say. Dakini has read through it and found that it does not. So either you disagree that it does not back up your claims, or you agree and must find one that does.
Where do you stand?

The title doesn't back up what he says either. It just says that the downing of a plane was inevitable, not that Turkey said they'd do it if Russia didn't stop bombing Daesh, which was the claim.

[Outer Sparta]

I disagree with Dakini. There we go.

Why?

If I could figure out Dakini's argument, then I could fashion why I disagree.

[The Emerald Dawn]

The bias is only when the reporter exaggerates a bit, which can admittedly be a problem in some cases

Not the case at all. RT is a russian state funded new organisation which, from their wiki page:

[RT] has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government[10][11][12] and its foreign policy[10][11][13][14] by former Russian officials[15] and by news reporters,[16] including former RT reporters.[17][18][19] It has also been accused of spreading disinformation.[20][21][22] The United Kingdom media regulator Ofcom has threatened RT with sanctions because of repeated violations of its rules on impartiality.[23] The network states that it offers a "Russian perspective" on global events.[24]

Making it unreliable.

I don't know, 14 citations may not be enough to accurately gauge it.

I need a fifteenth.

[Alvecia]

Can you read? I said that Al Jazeera was fine, but it does not say what you claim it does.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you actually saying I can't read?

If the article does not actually back up your argument, then maybe you need to re-read it. Dakini posted points of contention here:

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/11/24/downing-of-russian-jet-over-turkey-inevitable.html

Okay, now let's look at what your source says as far as Turkey threatening anyone.

Since Moscow launched its military intervention on behalf of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s government, Russian jets have repeatedly tempted fate by flying near or inside Turkish airspace. The maneuvers are seen as an effort by Moscow to flex its muscle across northern Syria, sending a message to Turkey and its NATO allies that the area is in Russia’s zone of influence.

Ankara has repeatedly chastised Russia and reiterated its right to defend Turkish airspace from incursion, and last month Turkey shot down a drone in its airspace.

So Turkey said it would defend its airspace from Russia.

...and that's the only thing that Turkey threatened Russia over in this article.

So no threats of "if you don't stop bombing ISIS, we'll shoot down your planes".

So your source does not back up your claim, basically.

Care to address them?

[Alvecia]

Why?

If I could figure out Dakini's argument, then I could fashion why I disagree.

So you are saying you definitely disagree. But you don't know why?

[Alvecia]

Not the case at all. RT is a russian state funded new organisation which, from their wiki page:

Making it unreliable.

I don't know, 14 citations may not be enough to accurately gauge it.

I need a fifteenth.

Oh you

[Dakini]

Can you read? I said that Al Jazeera was fine, but it does not say what you claim it does.

Whoa whoa whoa. Are you actually saying I can't read?

Apparently not. Apparently you skipped not only the part where I actually addressed the Al Jazeera article you posted (and pointed out that it doesn't back up your claim) instead of insisting on a non-joke source, but you skipped the posts where I indicated that Al Jazeera was a fine source.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I don't know, 14 citations may not be enough to accurately gauge it.

I need a fifteenth.

Oh you

I'm a fan of the base five system, having 2 4/5ths of a whole makes my inner ear twitch.

[Dakini]

Why?

If I could figure out Dakini's argument, then I could fashion why I disagree.

My argument is that Turkey never threatened attack Russian airplanes unless Russia stopped bombing Daesh, contrary to your unproven assertion. I thought that should be clear at this point.

[Roski]

Lel

is russia going to remove kebabs or is the united states going to remove russians? or is this unconfirmed?

[Outer Sparta]

If I could figure out Dakini's argument, then I could fashion why I disagree.

My argument is that Turkey never threatened attack Russian airplanes unless Russia stopped bombing Daesh, contrary to your unproven assertion. I thought that should be clear at this point.

You didn't mention it specifically enough. Anyway, after this, I won't mince anymore words. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621034/ISIS-Putin-Russia-Turkey-Moscow-ISIL-Islamic-State-IS-Ankara-terror-Paris

[Prussoslavia]

Well, you may wait, when "valid" CNN or BBC will say same.
In any case, this is the first official testimony from survived pilot.

CNN, I don't know. BBC I trust, but I wouldn't use it as my only source.
This is not the first official testimony because we don't know if it is true or not.
Also, if you're going to post a source, post it in a language that other can read so that we can verify your source and don't have to take the word of a random stranger on the internet that it says what you say it says.

Sorry, "valid" English-language sources with this news are absent yet.

If this news will be not confirmed, you will have an occasion to accuse the RT in a lie.

[Dakini]

My argument is that Turkey never threatened attack Russian airplanes unless Russia stopped bombing Daesh, contrary to your unproven assertion. I thought that should be clear at this point.

You didn't mention it specifically enough. Anyway, after this, I won't mince anymore words. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621034/ISIS-Putin-Russia-Turkey-Moscow-ISIL-Islamic-State-IS-Ankara-terror-Paris

The Daily Express is a tabloid. You can't cite a source that's going to be telling you all about bat boy tomorrow.

Also, yes, I did mention it specifically and repeatedly.

[Dakini]

CNN, I don't know. BBC I trust, but I wouldn't use it as my only source.
This is not the first official testimony because we don't know if it is true or not.
Also, if you're going to post a source, post it in a language that other can read so that we can verify your source and don't have to take the word of a random stranger on the internet that it says what you say it says.

Sorry, "valid" English-language sources with this news are absent yet.

If this news will be not confirmed, you will have an occasion to accuse the RT in a lie.

BBC reports that the Russian pilot claims there was no warning, but they also point out that..

An American military spokesman in Baghdad, Col Steve Warren, told reporters that recorded communication between Turkish and Russian pilots showed that the Turks warned the Russian plane 10 times before shooting it down.

It's not clear whether "communication between Turkish and Russian" pilots means that back and forth communication was recorded or whether it was just one way, but there's external evidence that Turkey did try to contact the Russian jet.

So it's possible that the Russian jet was not listening to the correct frequencies and therefore did not hear the warnings (unless the US recorded two way conversation, in which case the pilot would just be lying).

[The Emerald Dawn]

Sorry, "valid" English-language sources with this news are absent yet.

If this news will be not confirmed, you will have an occasion to accuse the RT in a lie.

BBC reports that the Russian pilot claims there was no warning, but they also point out that..

An American military spokesman in Baghdad, Col Steve Warren, told reporters that recorded communication between Turkish and Russian pilots showed that the Turks warned the Russian plane 10 times before shooting it down.

It's not clear whether "communication between Turkish and Russian" pilots means that back and forth communication was recorded or whether it was just one way, but there's external evidence that Turkey did try to contact the Russian jet.

So it's possible that the Russian jet was not listening to the correct frequencies and therefore did not hear the warnings (unless the US recorded two way conversation, in which case the pilot would just be lying).

I've spent time on military aircraft, chances are good the Russian pilots had the mic turned on.

[Roski]

BBC reports that the Russian pilot claims there was no warning, but they also point out that..



It's not clear whether "communication between Turkish and Russian" pilots means that back and forth communication was recorded or whether it was just one way, but there's external evidence that Turkey did try to contact the Russian jet.

So it's possible that the Russian jet was not listening to the correct frequencies and therefore did not hear the warnings (unless the US recorded two way conversation, in which case the pilot would just be lying).

I've spent time on military aircraft, chances are good the Russian pilots had the mic turned on.

There's been several events in the last year where Russian pilots simply ignored aircraft responses from nations. Most Tu-95 prods that are intercepted do not respond to commands or orders from their interceptors.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I've spent time on military aircraft, chances are good the Russian pilots had the mic turned on.

There's been several events in the last year where Russian pilots simply ignored aircraft responses from nations. Most Tu-95 prods that are intercepted do not respond to commands or orders from their interceptors.

I'm giving benefit of the doubt, they say they never heard it? They probably goofed their comms. Jockies always blame others for what they themselves have managed to fuck up.

[Dakini]

BBC reports that the Russian pilot claims there was no warning, but they also point out that..



It's not clear whether "communication between Turkish and Russian" pilots means that back and forth communication was recorded or whether it was just one way, but there's external evidence that Turkey did try to contact the Russian jet.

So it's possible that the Russian jet was not listening to the correct frequencies and therefore did not hear the warnings (unless the US recorded two way conversation, in which case the pilot would just be lying).

I've spent time on military aircraft, chances are good the Russian pilots had the mic turned on.

Sure, I don't really know the normal protocols, but someone early in the thread was suggesting that the Russian airplane might have been listening to the wrong frequency.

[Roski]

I've spent time on military aircraft, chances are good the Russian pilots had the mic turned on.

Sure, I don't really know the normal protocols, but someone early in the thread was suggesting that the Russian airplane might have been listening to the wrong frequency.

That's plausible, but the Turks would have flooded the frequencies until the Russians heard it. They say they called out ten different times, are we sure all ten are on the same frequency?

[The Emerald Dawn]

Sure, I don't really know the normal protocols, but someone early in the thread was suggesting that the Russian airplane might have been listening to the wrong frequency.

That's plausible, but the Turks would have flooded the frequencies until the Russians heard it. They say they called out ten different times, are we sure all ten are on the same frequency?

All ten, if they're following NATO procedures would have been on four different frequencies, two of them the wide-band emergency frequencies.

[The balkens]

>advanced SU-24 GPS.
https://gyazo.com/9baa466404880516f80dfd294470f3e2

This is the funniest thing i have ever seen.

[Rio Cana]

Shof going on his RUSSIA STRONK routine as I can see...

Turkey was legally in the right to shoot down the Russian aircraft, but probably shouldn't have. My theory is some hardliners in the Turkish government had authorized the shoot down because they were tired of Russia constantly violating its airspace and wanted to send a message. The airspace intrusions are provocations but aren't actual acts of aggression. Now I'm sure hardliners in the Russian government are urging extreme counter-measures.

If anything comes of this, it should be a de-escalation. The Russians should temporarily suspend operations near the Turkish border, say within 10 km. The Turkish Army could perhaps set up their long talked about buffer area within this zone.There should be some form of cooperation/coordination between the Russians and West on Syria (they are opposed to one another, but they do have common enemies), and protocols should be drawn up and agreed upon in order to prevent future problems.

I think this is achievable, unlike the recent Western proposals that Russia should stop supporting the regime (which is the main reason why they are there) to focus with the West on the counter-terror side of the operation.

The Turks should also probably do what they can to help recover the pilots and return them to Russia, if the Russians are okay with accepting this help.

Turkey and Russia are not at war so no need to have done this. Like I posted before, the Turks are just angry because the Syrians and Russians are hitting the Turkmen Syrian rebels. Turkey consider themselves the protectors of all ethnic Turks. They could care less about Kurds, Armenian, Arab Syrian Arab but you better not lay a hand on any ethnic Turk.

Has for de-escalation, this will do the opposite. The Russians will not stop until the Syrians have there tanks next to the Turkish border.

[Alvecia]

CNN, I don't know. BBC I trust, but I wouldn't use it as my only source.
This is not the first official testimony because we don't know if it is true or not.
Also, if you're going to post a source, post it in a language that other can read so that we can verify your source and don't have to take the word of a random stranger on the internet that it says what you say it says.

Sorry, "valid" English-language sources with this news are absent yet.

If this news will be not confirmed, you will have an occasion to accuse the RT in a lie.

Why would I have to when Russian officials and some of RT's own journalists have already accused them of such:

RT has been called a propaganda outlet for the Russian government[10][11][12] and its foreign policy[10][11][13][14] by former Russian officials[15] and by news reporters,[16] including former RT reporters.[17][18][19] It has also been accused of spreading disinformation.[20][21][22] The United Kingdom media regulator Ofcom has threatened RT with sanctions because of repeated violations of its rules on impartiality.[23] The network states that it offers a "Russian perspective" on global events.[24]