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The Confederate Flag: Is It Really Heritage?

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The Confederate Flag

Poll ended at Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:11 am

Heritage
69
29%
Hate
69
29%
Both
82
34%
Neither
13
5%
I don't know
6
3%
 
Total votes : 239

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The Eastern Hegemony
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Postby The Eastern Hegemony » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:21 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The Confederates weren't an army fighting for independence though. They were fighting for slavery. Not just to keep slavery for themselves, but to expand it to all new states, and to South America, and to force it on the Northern states.


Perhaps that can be said of the Confederate army at the very beginning of the civil war, but I understand that by late 1863 the primary reason for enlistment by most was the threat of occupation by the federal troops. You see this trend emerging everywhere from Texas to Georgia to Virginia and the Carolinas. They perceived it as resisting an almost foreign invasion that would've resulted in pillage and destruction.

Funny how the perception of an invasion tends to unite people, and inspire patriotism in the inane.

While there can be no doubt many young men ran off to war because they wished to defend slavery, or simply out of peer pressure, it's an altogether different ball game when you're a local soldier who thinks he's defending his home, whatever flag said home falls under. And that's not even counting the Native Americans who fought for the South, or the convicts that were trying to earn their freedom, or the conscripts who were more or less press ganged to join by the home guard and included old men, widowers with children, adolescents barely old enough to know what they were doing, and foreign immigrants including European Jews, who themselves faced a degree of social discrimination in the 1860s South.

Throughout history people have gone into the army for a variety of reasons. It's erroneous to suggest the Confederate hivemind bled and died out of some universal motivation to maintain slavery and nothing else.

Only 7% of Germans were Nazis. Later in the war, a lot of the Wermacht wasn't fighting to spread the Holocaust, just to make sure Germany survived.

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Usniya
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Postby Usniya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:21 am

The Eastern Hegemony wrote:
Usniya wrote:Exactly. I've always believed that real patriotism is not pretending that your country/region/whatever has never done something wrong, but rather, acknoledging it and hoping that you can do the right thing today.

...So... it should be kept? Just like Stalin's deathcamps should be used for 'scared straight' programs, but only for the descendants of those who actually died there?

It belongs in a museum, not flying, well, just about everywhere.
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The Eastern Hegemony
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Postby The Eastern Hegemony » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:22 am

Usniya wrote:
The Eastern Hegemony wrote:...So... it should be kept? Just like Stalin's deathcamps should be used for 'scared straight' programs, but only for the descendants of those who actually died there?

It belongs in a museum, not flying, well, just about everywhere.

That's what I think. It should not be flown or allowed on bumper stickers, license plates, etc., but instead resigned to museums.

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Krasny-Volny
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:25 am

The Eastern Hegemony wrote:
Usniya wrote:It belongs in a museum, not flying, well, just about everywhere.

That's what I think. It should not be flown or allowed on bumper stickers, license plates, etc., but instead resigned to museums.


Do Historical Reenactments count as museums?
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Usniya
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Postby Usniya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:26 am

The Eastern Hegemony wrote:Only 7% of Germans were Nazis. Later in the war, a lot of the Wermacht wasn't fighting to spread the Holocaust, just to make sure Germany survived.

And where is germany 70 years later? Trying to make up for their wrongs. Where is the south?
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Usniya
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Postby Usniya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:26 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
The Eastern Hegemony wrote:That's what I think. It should not be flown or allowed on bumper stickers, license plates, etc., but instead resigned to museums.


Do Historical Reenactments count as museums?

Yes.
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The Eastern Hegemony
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Postby The Eastern Hegemony » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:27 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
The Eastern Hegemony wrote:That's what I think. It should not be flown or allowed on bumper stickers, license plates, etc., but instead resigned to museums.


Do Historical Reenactments count as museums?


That too, as long as there is no actual secessionist intent (hence why it's a reenactment).

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The Eastern Hegemony
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Postby The Eastern Hegemony » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:27 am

Usniya wrote:
The Eastern Hegemony wrote:Only 7% of Germans were Nazis. Later in the war, a lot of the Wermacht wasn't fighting to spread the Holocaust, just to make sure Germany survived.

And where is germany 70 years later? Trying to make up for their wrongs. Where is the south?


...Claiming that none of it was wrong.

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Cymrea
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Postby Cymrea » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:32 am

You want heritage, fly the flag of the CSA, not a symbolic banner that everyone - even you, obstinate and edgy rebel - know perfectly well is a hallmark of radical extremist hatred.
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Krasny-Volny
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:32 am

The Eastern Hegemony wrote:
Usniya wrote:And where is germany 70 years later? Trying to make up for their wrongs. Where is the south?


...Claiming that none of it was wrong.


Former Nazis were purged in great numbers after the war. There was always the threat of prosecution, incarceration, and/or firing squads, especially in the Warsaw Pact. Hell, sentries at the concentration camps are still being hunted down as old men.

Former Confederates were pardoned.

I like to think Lincoln made that decision to better foster reconciliation rather than encourage further bitterness. Civil wars have their own touchy dynamics in that sense.
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Vestr-Norig
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Postby Vestr-Norig » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:35 am

As a non-American I believe the Confederate flag to be an important part of the South's culture and history. Most countries have, several times in their past done horrific things. Many countries have been founded with the belief of continuation of slavery, among them the USA itself, Colombia and Brazil. It is my belief, as expressed by this veteran from the Confederate army, most soldiers did not fight for the preservation of slavery, but rather the right of self-determination, for state's rights.
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Mike from Progressive
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Postby Mike from Progressive » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:35 am

Transvaal Vrystaat wrote:It's still protected under the First Amendment.

: ^ )


It is. Doesn't make it agreeable though.

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Usniya
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Postby Usniya » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:39 am

Cymrea wrote:You want heritage, fly the flag of the CSA, not a symbolic banner that everyone - even you, obstinate and edgy rebel - know perfectly well is a hallmark of radical extremist hatred.

Exactly, they should be flying an actual military flag design from the civil war, not that bullcrap rectangular version.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:42 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Ifreann wrote:The Confederates weren't an army fighting for independence though. They were fighting for slavery. Not just to keep slavery for themselves, but to expand it to all new states, and to South America, and to force it on the Northern states.


Perhaps that can be said of the Confederate army at the very beginning of the civil war, but I understand that by late 1863 the primary reason for enlistment by most was the threat of occupation by the federal troops. You see this trend emerging everywhere from Texas to Georgia to Virginia and the Carolinas. They perceived it as resisting an almost foreign invasion that would've resulted in pillage and destruction.

Funny how the perception of an invasion tends to unite people, and inspire patriotism in the inane.

While there can be no doubt many young men ran off to war because they wished to defend slavery, or simply out of peer pressure, it's an altogether different ball game when you're a local soldier who thinks he's defending his home, whatever flag said home falls under. And that's not even counting the Native Americans who fought for the South, or the convicts that were trying to earn their freedom, or the conscripts who were more or less press ganged to join by the home guard and included old men, widowers with children, adolescents barely old enough to know what they were doing, and foreign immigrants including European Jews, who themselves faced a degree of social discrimination in the 1860s South.

Throughout history people have gone into the army for a variety of reasons. It's erroneous to suggest the Confederate hivemind bled and died out of some universal motivation to maintain slavery and nothing else.

Obviously individual soldiers may go to war for any number of reasons. But the purpose of the war was to advance and forever enshrine in America the practice of enslaving black people. The efforts of men who wanted to defend their homes, have a jolly adventure, earn their freedom, earn some money, etc, were being used by their political and military leaders to build a slave empire. Though I imagine as they began to realise that they were losing the war they reconsidered their priorities and became more concerned with not getting hung as traitors.


Vestr-Norig wrote:As a non-American I believe the Confederate flag to be an important part of the South's culture and history. Most countries have, several times in their past done horrific things. Many countries have been founded with the belief of continuation of slavery, among them the USA itself, Colombia and Brazil. It is my belief, as expressed by this veteran from the Confederate army, most soldiers did not fight for the preservation of slavery, but rather the right of self-determination, for state's rights.

I'm sure lots of soldiers in the history of warfare were lied to about what they were fighting for.
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The Silver Bloods
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Postby The Silver Bloods » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:43 am

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The Eastern Hegemony
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Postby The Eastern Hegemony » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:47 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
The Eastern Hegemony wrote:
...Claiming that none of it was wrong.


Former Nazis were purged in great numbers after the war. There was always the threat of prosecution, incarceration, and/or firing squads, especially in the Warsaw Pact. Hell, sentries at the concentration camps are still being hunted down as old men.

Former Confederates were pardoned.

I like to think Lincoln made that decision to better foster reconciliation rather than encourage further bitterness. Civil wars have their own touchy dynamics in that sense.

Plus, you can't very well kill off every able male in half of your country.

Image

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:48 am

The Silver Bloods wrote:
Vassenor wrote:The problem is that by showing it off you are effectively stating your support for the belief that certain classes of human being have no place except as the property of other humans. That was the ideal under which the Confederacy was founded and seceded after all.

The Civil War started in April of 1861, on January 1st of 1863 slavery become an issue in the war. That is when Abraham Lincoln emancipated all the former slaves in the North, and since he didn't recognize the South as sovereign he declared them free as well. This of course, brought about further rebellion in the South since the majority favored slavery there and they were in a fight for independence. In short, the Civil War was not started because of slavery.

Yes it was, as has been explained already in this thread.
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The Qeiiam Star Cluster
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Postby The Qeiiam Star Cluster » Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:53 am

The Silver Bloods wrote:
Vassenor wrote:The problem is that by showing it off you are effectively stating your support for the belief that certain classes of human being have no place except as the property of other humans. That was the ideal under which the Confederacy was founded and seceded after all.

The Civil War started in April of 1861, on January 1st of 1863 slavery become an issue in the war. That is when Abraham Lincoln emancipated all the former slaves in the South. This of course, brought about further rebellion in the South since the majority favored slavery there and they were in a fight for independence. In short, the Civil War was not started because of slavery.

"Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:05 am

Scanzian Freehold wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I have to ask, as I never went to school in the US (either North or South) but, how different is US history taught?


Wish I'd been online for this question when it was asked... Well, Nana, let me tell you a little story of my personal experience with the difference. Sit on down a spell, and have a listen:
Since I moved from 'Yankee Bluebelly' territory to the 'Grand Ol' Piedmont' between my 8th and 9th grade years back in 1985, I can only personally answer for that generation and period, but from what I understand it's actually become more spun and sectarian in certain school districts since.

The difference is culture shock inducing. I went from a general civics/history class on "American History" in the North, with two chapters around the causes and effects of the Civil War, to a split semester on "Early American History," followed by a semester on the "War of Nawthen Aggression." Sure, the glossy blue-grey text book said "Civil War," but it was never referred to as such by any instructor, faculty member, or local student; and when the words "Civil War" would come up in the book, the instructor would pointedly overemphasize the words "WAH of NAWWTHN A-GRESSH-ION" in their place. Even referring to it as the "War Between the States" was met with the sternest and most patronizing lectures. Mind you, this was the public school system in Fauquier County1, only 55 miles from D.C.... The closer you got to VMI, the worse it got, according to acquaintances from other schools.

This was followed by a refresher in "Mid-1800s Literature," in tenth grade, and 11th Grade Civics spent no less than a quarter on the Civil War, as well. "States Rights" was the perennial subject of the Debate Club's regional meet. Civil war battlefields were also the yearly field trip sight, usually Manassas Battlefield. Because they won. Twice. (Strangely enough, though, the 12th Grade field trip was to the Jewish Embassy in D.C., and George Washington University, for whatever that's worth. I think it was after a major school board demographic change, though.)

As soon as I could after High School, I moved back up to these parts, where I have been involved, over the years, with various scholastic groups, teachers, and institutions, and have stayed pretty up-to-date on the courses at Jr High and High Schools locally and elsewhere. While the subject emphasis on history vary by region and school board makeup, the time spent on Civil War issues is almost 3 to 1 across the Mason/Dixon line, with the South spending, on average, three times as much classroom time on the Civil War, much of it biased towards the "States Rights" revisionist argument of the New South.

Given, this is a personal testimonial, completely apocryphal, and colored by the very layered and generally unpleasant experience of my adolescence in rural Virginia, so, take that as you will, Your Mileage May Vary, etc.; but there is definitely a difference in sheer amount of time spent on the US Civil War between Southern and Northern rural schools, even today, and the degree of bias. I am told that is not so pronounced in more diverse urban areas, like parts of Richmond, or Fairfax.

As a sort of a Post Script: the yearly re-painting of the school rock (AKA "Falcon Rock", after the FHS sports teams,) at the highest point of the inner courtyard, always included at least one Confederate flag, usually the so-called "Rebel" flag, (but actually the flag of Tennessee, which would be painted over by faculty almost immediately,) and frequently the square Army of Northern VA. flag (otherwise identical to the "Rebel Flag,") which would usually be left for several weeks, and the Bonnie Blue Flag (Virginia's rebel flag, of which the associated song2 was driven into my head in 9th Grade2,) which would only be painted out at the beginning of the next school year. Because Historical Value and State Pride.
1Fauquier, by the 80s, only had one high school. It had two during segregation, but rather than have "our good white children" sent to the "Darkie School," a battleflag waving local patriot and father of two burned it down with his friends in the early 60s. (People still fondly remembered and recounted the tales of those good ol' days of torch wielding mobs 'round those parts.)
2"...Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern Rights, Hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!"


You just made me choke on my green tea.

"wah of nawthen aggression", hilarious. :rofl:
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Transvaal Vrystaat
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Postby Transvaal Vrystaat » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:30 am

Mike from Progressive wrote:
Transvaal Vrystaat wrote:It's still protected under the First Amendment.

: ^ )


It is. Doesn't make it agreeable though.

I never said it was.

However, they're still within their rights to fly it.
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Cymrea
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Postby Cymrea » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:32 am

For states' rights. Hmm.

Perhaps northerners should fly the 35-star American flag for heritage and human rights. Plus as victors.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:35 am

Transvaal Vrystaat wrote:
Mike from Progressive wrote:
It is. Doesn't make it agreeable though.

I never said it was.

However, they're still within their rights to fly it.

No one is saying they aren't. There are no attempts to prohibit people from doing so. The thread isn't about whether people are or should be allowed to fly the Confederate flag. And to quote an xkcd alt-text, defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express.
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Scandinavian Nations
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Postby Scandinavian Nations » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:05 am

The Qeiiam Star Cluster wrote:...upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

I wonder what these people would say if they were transported to modern USA and got to see the clean, thriving, peaceful urban communities their former slaves have created...
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Cymrea
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Postby Cymrea » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:07 am

Scandinavian Nations wrote:
The Qeiiam Star Cluster wrote:...upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."

I wonder what these people would say if they were transported to modern USA and got to see the clean, thriving, peaceful urban communities their former slaves have created...

I don't think any slaves would consent to being transported anywhere, given how that went for them previously.
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The House of Petain
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Postby The House of Petain » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:34 am

Transvaal Vrystaat wrote:
Mike from Progressive wrote:
It is. Doesn't make it agreeable though.

I never said it was.

However, they're still within their rights to fly it.


Fairly certain nobody really wants to ban it entirely.
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