The Confederate Flag: Is It Really Heritage?

[The Black Forrest]

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents their revolution against northern rule, and a desire for independence, for it is the symbol of their armies that aimed to break the south away from the north. Though it has been appropriated for purposes of heritage, and hate, throughout the years, its still remains to be a symbol of freedom and independence.

Nice white wash. Do you have a yelp entry?

[Cannot think of a name]

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents their revolution against northern rule, and a desire for independence, for it is the symbol of their armies that aimed to break the south away from the north. Though it has been appropriated for purposes of heritage, and hate, throughout the years, its still remains to be a symbol of freedom and independence.

Nice white wash. Do you have a yelp entry?

I feel like this is done in the hopes that the people who shot this nonsense full of holes the last dozen times are too bored with the topic to do it again.

[Rusozak]

...For white people.

Your point is?

Slavery would've died out in the CSA if they would've won, they were more than willing to, and even denied an offer by Abe Lincoln to rejoin the Union with slavery in 1865.

The "it would have died out eventually" argument is pointless. It's okay because they would have stopped using slaves anyways once they nolonger needed them, not because it's like wrong or anything? The fact of the matter is the confederate flag is a symbol of hate for people who's ancestors were enslaved under it, and southern whites will never understand what that's like. Imagine a German who has German ww2 veteran ancestors raising a nazi flag and saying "it's my heritage! It symbolizes the strength and pride of Germans!" Similar case. Not the same, but similar.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

...For white people.

Your point is?

Slavery would've died out in the CSA if they would've won, they were more than willing to, and even denied an offer by Abe Lincoln to rejoin the Union with slavery in 1865.

Nonsense. Their Constitution forbade the outlawing of slavery, as I showed previously. It would not have died out eventually. By the time Lincoln made the offer, they were in too far over their heads.

[Arkinesia]

I know that's the idea. The Supreme Court rejected that idea.

They did so on an unprincipled basis; as such I consider the decision incorrect

How was it unprincipled? If it doesn't follow the law, it's irrelevant, but several treason threads ago I clearly outlined that secession was illegal long before 1861.

[Scanzian Freehold]

I have to ask, as I never went to school in the US (either North or South) but, how different is US history taught?

Wish I'd been online for this question when it was asked... Well, Nana, let me tell you a little story of my personal experience with the difference. Sit on down a spell, and have a listen:

Since I moved from 'Yankee Bluebelly' territory to the 'Grand Ol' Piedmont' between my 8th and 9th grade years back in 1985, I can only personally answer for that generation and period, but from what I understand it's actually become more spun and sectarian in certain school districts since.

The difference is culture shock inducing. I went from a general civics/history class on "American History" in the North, with two chapters around the causes and effects of the Civil War, to a split semester on "Early American History," followed by a semester on the "War of Nawthen Aggression." Sure, the glossy blue-grey text book said "Civil War," but it was never referred to as such by any instructor, faculty member, or local student; and when the words "Civil War" would come up in the book, the instructor would pointedly overemphasize the words "WAH of NAWWTHN A-GRESSH-ION" in their place. Even referring to it as the "War Between the States" was met with the sternest and most patronizing lectures. Mind you, this was the public school system in Fauquier County¹, only 55 miles from D.C.... The closer you got to VMI, the worse it got, according to acquaintances from other schools.

This was followed by a refresher in "Mid-1800s Literature," in tenth grade, and 11th Grade Civics spent no less than a quarter on the Civil War, as well. "States Rights" was the perennial subject of the Debate Club's regional meet. Civil war battlefields were also the yearly field trip sight, usually Manassas Battlefield. Because they won. Twice. (Strangely enough, though, the 12th Grade field trip was to the Jewish Embassy in D.C., and George Washington University, for whatever that's worth. I think it was after a major school board demographic change, though.)

As soon as I could after High School, I moved back up to these parts, where I have been involved, over the years, with various scholastic groups, teachers, and institutions, and have stayed pretty up-to-date on the courses at Jr High and High Schools locally and elsewhere. While the subject emphasis on history vary by region and school board makeup, the time spent on Civil War issues is almost 3 to 1 across the Mason/Dixon line, with the South spending, on average, three times as much classroom time on the Civil War, much of it biased towards the "States Rights" revisionist argument of the New South.

Given, this is a personal testimonial, completely apocryphal, and colored by the very layered and generally unpleasant experience of my adolescence in rural Virginia, so, take that as you will, Your Mileage May Vary, etc.; but there is definitely a difference in sheer amount of time spent on the US Civil War between Southern and Northern rural schools, even today, and the degree of bias. I am told that is not so pronounced in more diverse urban areas, like parts of Richmond, or Fairfax.

As a sort of a Post Script: the yearly re-painting of the school rock (AKA "Falcon Rock", after the FHS sports teams,) at the highest point of the inner courtyard, always included at least one Confederate flag, usually the so-called "Rebel" flag, (but actually the flag of Tennessee, which would be painted over by faculty almost immediately,) and frequently the square Army of Northern VA. flag (otherwise identical to the "Rebel Flag,") which would usually be left for several weeks, and the Bonnie Blue Flag (Virginia's rebel flag, of which the associated song² was driven into my head in 9th Grade²,) which would only be painted out at the beginning of the next school year. Because Historical Value and State Pride.

¹Fauquier, by the 80s, only had one high school. It had two during segregation, but rather than have "our good white children" sent to the "Darkie School," a battleflag waving local patriot and father of two burned it down with his friends in the early 60s. (People still fondly remembered and recounted the tales of those good ol' days of torch wielding mobs 'round those parts.)
²"...Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern Rights, Hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!"

[The Eastern Hegemony]

Your point is?

Slavery would've died out in the CSA if they would've won, they were more than willing to, and even denied an offer by Abe Lincoln to rejoin the Union with slavery in 1865.

The "it would have died out eventually" argument is pointless. It's okay because they would have stopped using slaves anyways once they nolonger needed them, not because it's like wrong or anything? The fact of the matter is the confederate flag is a symbol of hate for people who's ancestors were enslaved under it, and southern whites will never understand what that's like. Imagine a German who has German ww2 veteran ancestors raising a nazi flag and saying "it's my heritage! It symbolizes the strength and pride of Germans!" Similar case. Not the same, but similar.

I'm white... I was born in Georgia... I feel like scraping the Flag off every damn license plate I see it on. It's disgusting. Maybe it's because I'm left of Bernie, or maybe it's because I was super into WW2 as a child and saw some disturbing links between slavery and the Holocaust early on, but believe me, the Flag belongs in a museum, at least in my mind it does.

[The Eastern Hegemony]

I have to ask, as I never went to school in the US (either North or South) but, how different is US history taught?

Wish I'd been online for this question when it was asked... Well, Nana, let me tell you a little story of my personal experience with the difference. Sit on down a spell, and have a listen:

Since I moved from 'Yankee Bluebelly' territory to the 'Grand Ol' Piedmont' between my 8th and 9th grade years back in 1985, I can only personally answer for that generation and period, but from what I understand it's actually become more spun and sectarian in certain school districts since.

The difference is culture shock inducing. I went from a general civics/history class on "American History" in the North, with two chapters around the causes and effects of the Civil War, to a split semester on "Early American History," followed by a semester on the "War of Nawthen Aggression." Sure, the glossy blue-grey text book said "Civil War," but it was never referred to as such by any instructor, faculty member, or local student; and when the words "Civil War" would come up in the book, the instructor would pointedly overemphasize the words "WAH of NAWWTHN A-GRESSH-ION" in their place. Even referring to it as the "War Between the States" was met with the sternest and most patronizing lectures. Mind you, this was the public school system in Fauquier County¹, only 55 miles from D.C.... The closer you got to VMI, the worse it got, according to acquaintances from other schools.

This was followed by a refresher in "Mid-1800s Literature," in tenth grade, and 11th Grade Civics spent no less than a quarter on the Civil War, as well. "States Rights" was the perennial subject of the Debate Club's regional meet. Civil war battlefields were also the yearly field trip sight, usually Manassas Battlefield. Because they won. Twice. (Strangely enough, though, the 12th Grade field trip was to the Jewish Embassy in D.C., and George Washington University, for whatever that's worth. I think it was after a major school board demographic change, though.)

As soon as I could after High School, I moved back up to these parts, where I have been involved, over the years, with various scholastic groups, teachers, and institutions, and have stayed pretty up-to-date on the courses at Jr High and High Schools locally and elsewhere. While the subject emphasis on history vary by region and school board makeup, the time spent on Civil War issues is almost 3 to 1 across the Mason/Dixon line, with the South spending, on average, three times as much classroom time on the Civil War, much of it biased towards the "States Rights" revisionist argument of the New South.

Given, this is a personal testimonial, completely apocryphal, and colored by the very layered and generally unpleasant experience of my adolescence in rural Virginia, so, take that as you will, Your Mileage May Vary, etc.; but there is definitely a difference in sheer amount of time spent on the US Civil War between Southern and Northern rural schools, even today, and the degree of bias. I am told that is not so pronounced in more diverse urban areas, like parts of Richmond, or Fairfax.

As a sort of a Post Script: the yearly re-painting of the school rock (AKA "Falcon Rock", after the FHS sports teams,) at the highest point of the inner courtyard, always included at least one Confederate flag, usually the so-called "Rebel" flag, (but actually the flag of Tennessee, which would be painted over by faculty almost immediately,) and frequently the square Army of Northern VA. flag (otherwise identical to the "Rebel Flag,") which would usually be left for several weeks, and the Bonnie Blue Flag (Virginia's rebel flag, of which the associated song² was driven into my head in 9th Grade²,) which would only be painted out at the beginning of the next school year. Because Historical Value and State Pride.

¹Fauquier, by the 80s, only had one high school. It had two during segregation, but rather than have "our good white children" sent to the "Darkie School," a battleflag waving local patriot and father of two burned it down with his friends in the early 60s. (People still fondly remembered and recounted the tales of those good ol' days of torch wielding mobs 'round those parts.)
²"...Hurrah! Hurrah! For Southern Rights, Hurrah! Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!"

It's different now. My niece still lives in Georgia and is doing the Civil War in Social Studies right now, and they do call it the Civil War, even a rebellion at times. The main difference is how they stress that slavery wasn't the only issue that led to secession, and the textbook has a picture of a Confederate infantryman rushing a Union soldier, but the Confederate and his battle flag is in the foreground. That was probably a 'f*ck you' from a mostly likely confederate-apologist/sympathizer publisher.

[Ifreann]

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents their revolution against northern rule, and a desire for independence, for it is the symbol of their armies that aimed to break the south away from the north. Though it has been appropriated for purposes of heritage, and hate, throughout the years, its still remains to be a symbol of freedom and independence.

Gotta love how people can convince themselves that a war fought for slavery was actually for freedom and independence.

[Alvecia]

The flag of the Confederate States of America represents their revolution against northern rule, and a desire for independence, for it is the symbol of their armies that aimed to break the south away from the north. Though it has been appropriated for purposes of heritage, and hate, throughout the years, its still remains to be a symbol of freedom and independence.

Gotta love how people can convince themselves that a war fought for slavery was actually for freedom and independence.

But it was!
The freedom to own slaves, and independence from those who wanted to take away their slaves.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Your point is?

Slavery would've died out in the CSA if they would've won, they were more than willing to, and even denied an offer by Abe Lincoln to rejoin the Union with slavery in 1865.

The "it would have died out eventually" argument is pointless. It's okay because they would have stopped using slaves anyways once they nolonger needed them, not because it's like wrong or anything? The fact of the matter is the confederate flag is a symbol of hate for people who's ancestors were enslaved under it, and southern whites will never understand what that's like. Imagine a German who has German ww2 veteran ancestors raising a nazi flag and saying "it's my heritage! It symbolizes the strength and pride of Germans!" Similar case. Not the same, but similar.

It wasn't like slavery magically ended in 1865. Blacks were exploited for decades following in the war, living in impoverishment similar to the conditions of slavery, and paid meager wages, and frequently cheated from those wages. I never denied that slavery was a moral evil, I merely pointed out that blacks would more or less be free under the CSA.

By that logic, I suppose people with ancestors in the US shouldn't fly the US flag because that flag flew over slave ships, the relocation of Indians from their native homelands and various genocidal tactics that spanned for more than a century. Look, every country has their faults, but to equate an army fighting for independence with an imperialist fascist regime hinged on killing jews is just asinine on every level.

[Republic of Coldwater]

Your point is?

Slavery would've died out in the CSA if they would've won, they were more than willing to, and even denied an offer by Abe Lincoln to rejoin the Union with slavery in 1865.

Nonsense. Their Constitution forbade the outlawing of slavery, as I showed previously. It would not have died out eventually. By the time Lincoln made the offer, they were in too far over their heads.

Because amendments don't exist. You make two amendments: the first one nullifies the law, the second one ends slavery.

[Trumpostan]

Its an eternal symbol of states' rights; it also pays tribute to the honour and valor of the southern soldiers.

The only flaw in that is that the Southern states cared very little about states' rights.

From Wiki:
Historian Henry Brooks Adams (grandson of John Quincy Adams) explained that the Southern states stood for centralization of power:

Between the slave power and states' rights there was no necessary connection. The slave power, when in control, was a centralizing influence, and all the most considerable encroachments on states' rights were its acts. The acquisition and admission of Louisiana; the Embargo; the War of 1812; the annexation of Texas "by joint resolution" [rather than treaty]; the war with Mexico, declared by the mere announcement of President Polk; the Fugitive Slave Law; the Dred Scott decision—all triumphs of the slave power—did far more than either tariffs or internal improvements, which in their origin were also southern measures, to destroy the very memory of states' rights as they existed in 1789. Whenever a question arose of extending or protecting slavery, the slaveholders became friends of centralized power, and used that dangerous weapon with a kind of frenzy. Slavery in fact required centralization in order to maintain and protect itself, but it required to control the centralized machine; it needed despotic principles of government, but it needed them exclusively for its own use. Thus, in truth, states' rights were the protection of the free states, and as a matter of fact, during the domination of the slave power, Massachusetts appealed to this protecting principle as often and almost as loudly as South Carolina.

[Ifreann]

The "it would have died out eventually" argument is pointless. It's okay because they would have stopped using slaves anyways once they nolonger needed them, not because it's like wrong or anything? The fact of the matter is the confederate flag is a symbol of hate for people who's ancestors were enslaved under it, and southern whites will never understand what that's like. Imagine a German who has German ww2 veteran ancestors raising a nazi flag and saying "it's my heritage! It symbolizes the strength and pride of Germans!" Similar case. Not the same, but similar.

It wasn't like slavery magically ended in 1865. Blacks were exploited for decades following in the war, living in impoverishment similar to the conditions of slavery, and paid meager wages, and frequently cheated from those wages. I never denied that slavery was a moral evil, I merely pointed out that blacks would more or less be free under the CSA.

By that logic, I suppose people with ancestors in the US shouldn't fly the US flag because that flag flew over slave ships, the relocation of Indians from their native homelands and various genocidal tactics that spanned for more than a century. Look, every country has their faults, but to equate an army fighting for independence with an imperialist fascist regime hinged on killing jews is just asinine on every level.

The Confederates weren't an army fighting for independence though. They were fighting for slavery. Not just to keep slavery for themselves, but to expand it to all new states, and to South America, and to force it on the Northern states.

[PerfectChaos]

The Confederate Flag is part of our nations history. Let people show there pride! You cannot rewrite history, so even if you can get rid of the Confederate Flag and take it out of the History books, it still happened.

[The Eastern Hegemony]

The Confederate Flag is part of our nations history. Let people show there pride! You cannot rewrite history, so even if you can get rid of the Confederate Flag and take it out of the History books, it still happened.

Plus, people need to get over how it's supposedly 'only a sign of freedom for whites' or some other bullcrap. Please! It's a sign of the freedom to work for free, just like the SS insignia symbolizes the freedom of giving Jews the option of being gassed or digging trenches! I say, we must rebel against the government that has shoved semi-sensible wages down our throats for years! Freedom for money! No more salaries! Hurrah!

[New Vagabondia]

The Confederate flag is a flag, whether or not it shows hate is irrelevant. By giving it the power of hate we are making it exactly what we don't want it to be. The only way to truly remove something's meaning, especially that of hate, is by making it equal to anything else. This flag is a symbol of heritage, and yes, this heritage does have some shady backstory, but by shunning and removing it from our culture we are ignoring a large portion of our history, and a cultural cleansing is far from what this country needs. I say keep the flag.

[Ifreann]

The Confederate Flag is part of our nations history. Let people show there pride! You cannot rewrite history...

So why do so many people think the American civil war was about states' rights?

[The Eastern Hegemony]

The Confederate Flag is part of our nations history. Let people show there pride! You cannot rewrite history...

So why do so many people think the American civil war was about states' rights?

Because they wanted to secede to have more individual state's right's to.. uh... make a unitary government with few individual state's rights... with a constitution limiting said rights...


Never mind.

[Usniya]

The Confederate Flag is part of our nations history. Let people show there pride! You cannot rewrite history...

So why do so many people think the American civil war was about states' rights?

Because people in the south want a way to justify what their ancestors did.

[Ifreann]

So why do so many people think the American civil war was about states' rights?

Because people in the south want a way to justify what their ancestors did.

I.E. Rewrite history.

[The Eastern Hegemony]

Because people in the south want a way to justify what their ancestors did.

I.E. Rewrite history.

Plot twist!

[Usniya]

Because people in the south want a way to justify what their ancestors did.

I.E. Rewrite history.

Exactly. I've always believed that real patriotism is not pretending that your country/region/whatever has never done something wrong, but rather, acknoledging it and hoping that you can do the right thing today.

[Krasny-Volny]

It wasn't like slavery magically ended in 1865. Blacks were exploited for decades following in the war, living in impoverishment similar to the conditions of slavery, and paid meager wages, and frequently cheated from those wages. I never denied that slavery was a moral evil, I merely pointed out that blacks would more or less be free under the CSA.

By that logic, I suppose people with ancestors in the US shouldn't fly the US flag because that flag flew over slave ships, the relocation of Indians from their native homelands and various genocidal tactics that spanned for more than a century. Look, every country has their faults, but to equate an army fighting for independence with an imperialist fascist regime hinged on killing jews is just asinine on every level.

The Confederates weren't an army fighting for independence though. They were fighting for slavery. Not just to keep slavery for themselves, but to expand it to all new states, and to South America, and to force it on the Northern states.

Perhaps that can be said of the Confederate army at the very beginning of the civil war, but I understand that by late 1863 the primary reason for enlistment by most was the threat of occupation by the federal troops. You see this trend emerging everywhere from Texas to Georgia to Virginia and the Carolinas. They perceived it as resisting an almost foreign invasion that would've resulted in pillage and destruction.

Funny how the perception of an invasion tends to unite people, and inspire patriotism in the inane.

While there can be no doubt many young men ran off to war because they wished to defend slavery, or simply out of peer pressure, it's an altogether different ball game when you're a local soldier who thinks he's defending his home, whatever flag said home falls under. And that's not even counting the Native Americans who fought for the South, or the convicts that were trying to earn their freedom, or the conscripts who were more or less press ganged to join by the home guard and included old men, widowers with children, adolescents barely old enough to know what they were doing, and foreign immigrants including European Jews, who themselves faced a degree of social discrimination in the 1860s South.

Throughout history people have gone into the army for a variety of reasons. It's erroneous to suggest the Confederate hivemind bled and died out of some universal motivation to maintain slavery and nothing else.

[The Eastern Hegemony]

I.E. Rewrite history.

Exactly. I've always believed that real patriotism is not pretending that your country/region/whatever has never done something wrong, but rather, acknoledging it and hoping that you can do the right thing today.

...So... it should be kept? Just like Stalin's deathcamps should be used for 'scared straight' programs, but only for the descendants of those who actually died there?