It's time for leftists to wake up before they destroy Europe

[Wallenburg]

What's wrong with that? Censorship, tyranny, torture, and death, to begin with.

I was referring to the response to that. On the other hand while it wasn't right for the US to install those guys, if he wasn't so immoral I would have supported a US backed military dictator.

The ends do not justify the means.

[Constantinopolis]

No it's not. On the contrary, in many parts of the non-Western world the concept of left and right is far stronger, to the extent that people from the two sides have their own semi-separate cultures and almost never talk to each other.

Communism has been more popular in the non-Western world than in the Western world since at least the 1960s-70s. And today, the socialist movement (broadly defined) is doing much better in the non-Western world than in the Western world. I am talking especially about Latin America, and to a lesser extent South Asia.

The only genuine Leftist movement in South America is in Venezuela. Besides them the entire pink tide is capitalist.

Socialism is doing better in the EU than in the developing world.

You have to distinguish between the rank-and-file supporters of a political party, and the policies enacted by the leadership of that party when they are in government.

Rank-and-file support for socialism among ordinary people is far stronger in Latin America than in Europe. What exists in Latin America is significant public support for socialism, but without any political leadership willing to act upon this popular support (except in Venezuela). What exists in Europe, on the other hand, are quasi-socialist welfare state policies inherited from many decades ago, with very little popular support for moving any further towards socialism.

At the present time, Europeans are, by and large, perfectly happy with the economic status quo (or the pre-2008 status quo, in the countries hit hard by the capitalist crisis). Popular leftist movements in Europe generally demand no more than an end to austerity - i.e. a return to the status quo of a decade ago.

[The Greater Aryan Race]

No, absolutely not. We invented the concept, and to us, the left is a set of values and beliefs. Not an NGO to defend the "marginalized", regardless of how heinous, or even anti-leftist, their views might be.

France invented the idea of left wing?

Allegedly yes. The concept of left and right-wing supposedly originated during the French Revolution when supporters of the King sat on the right of the National Assembly and the more radical revolutionaries on the left. Or so the narrative goes.

[Distruzio]

... how is leftism to blame for the immigration crisis?

They are the ones holding back the gov't from even having regulations! I mean come one, ~1,000,000 illegal immigrants in less than 2 years? And that is just Germany, they carry broken, incompatible, and dangerous ideologies; islam. When they bring it here, they are encouraged not to let it go! It is dangerous.

... maybe we're not on the same page here. I'm no fan of leftism but I don't see a clear arrow from immigration to leftists here. You'll have to do a better job pointing at something and saying, "this shit! This shit right here is leftism! Isn't that fucked up?"

Right now you're pointing at the disheveled masses running from war and saying, "there's too many of you! Fucking leftists!"

That's like seeing the dirty dishes piling up in your sink and concluding that the reason they exist is trees. Until you can identify the way the trees caused the increase in dishes I'm going to remain confused about what the hell you're talking about.

[Unnamed island state]

I was referring to the response to that. On the other hand while it wasn't right for the US to install those guys, if he wasn't so immoral I would have supported a US backed military dictator.

The ends do not justify the means.

if he wasn't so immoral

And that's hypocritical coming from a guy who loves John Stuart Mill.

[Constantinopolis]

No, absolutely not. We invented the concept, and to us, the left is a set of values and beliefs. Not an NGO to defend the "marginalized", regardless of how heinous, or even anti-leftist, their views might be.

France invented the idea of left wing?

Actually... yes. Yes it did.

[Olerand]

France invented the idea of left wing?

Allegedly yes. The concept of left and right-wing supposedly originated during the French Revolution when supporters of the King sat on the right of the National Assembly and the more radical revolutionaries on the left. Or so the narrative goes.

Allegedly? We did.

No, absolutely not. We invented the concept, and to us, the left is a set of values and beliefs. Not an NGO to defend the "marginalized", regardless of how heinous, or even anti-leftist, their views might be.

France invented the idea of left wing?

We certainly did. Even coined the term socialism as it is understood today.

[Wallenburg]

The ends do not justify the means.

if he wasn't so immoral

And that's hypocritical coming from a guy who loves John Stuart Mill.

I love Hamilton too. And Lincoln. And FDR. Does that mean I have to support their more Machiavellian approaches to particular problems?

[The Greater Aryan Race]

... maybe we're not on the same page here. I'm no fan of leftism but I don't see a clear arrow from immigration to leftists here. You'll have to do a better job pointing at something and saying, "this shit! This shit right here is leftism! Isn't that fucked up?"

Right now you're pointing at the disheveled masses running from war and saying, "there's too many of you! Fucking leftists!"

That's like seeing the dirty dishes piling up in your sink and concluding that the reason they exist is trees. Until you can identify the way the trees caused the increase in dishes I'm going to remain confused about what the hell you're talking about.

Their claim is that somehow the Left is responsible for encouraging mass, unrestricted immigration of teh ebul darkies into Europe, thereby polluting the cultural and spiritual wellbeing of the White race.

On top of that, the narrative goes that the Left is responsible for enforcing multiculturalist policies elsewhere while cosying up to minority groups in the European states, thereby preventing any sense of meaningful integration between the immigrants and the European residents.

[Unnamed island state]

The only genuine Leftist movement in South America is in Venezuela. Besides them the entire pink tide is capitalist.

Socialism is doing better in the EU than in the developing world.

You have to distinguish between the rank-and-file supporters of a political party, and the policies enacted by the leadership of that party when they are in government.

Rank-and-file support for socialism among ordinary people is far stronger in Latin America than in Europe. What exists in Latin America is significant public support for socialism, but without any political leadership willing to act upon this popular support (except in Venezuela). What exists in Europe, on the other hand, are quasi-socialist welfare state policies inherited from many decades ago, with very little popular support for moving any further towards socialism.

At the present time, Europeans are, by and large, perfectly happy with the economic status quo (or the pre-2008 status quo, in the countries hit hard by the capitalist crisis). Popular leftist movements in Europe generally demand no more than an end to austerity - i.e. a return to the status quo of a decade ago.

South Americans do not want Socialist leaders. Peru elected Alan Garcia, a guy with a not so good track record, because they were afraid that his opponent was a Chavista.

They're all quite content with the Pink tide leaders who give them steady economic growth and increased public benefits.

[Olerand]

... maybe we're not on the same page here. I'm no fan of leftism but I don't see a clear arrow from immigration to leftists here. You'll have to do a better job pointing at something and saying, "this shit! This shit right here is leftism! Isn't that fucked up?"

Right now you're pointing at the disheveled masses running from war and saying, "there's too many of you! Fucking leftists!"

That's like seeing the dirty dishes piling up in your sink and concluding that the reason they exist is trees. Until you can identify the way the trees caused the increase in dishes I'm going to remain confused about what the hell you're talking about.

Their claim is that somehow the Left is responsible for encouraging mass, unrestricted immigration of teh ebul darkies into Europe, thereby polluting the cultural and spiritual wellbeing of the White race.

On top of that, the narrative goes that the Left is responsible for enforcing multiculturalist policies elsewhere while cosying up to minority groups in the European states, thereby preventing any sense of meaningful integration between the immigrants and the European residents.

Does the left not encourage immigration? Does the left, in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the Scandinavian countries, and maybe even the Germanic countries (I'm not sure) not oppose assimilation and advocate communitarianism?

[Unnamed island state]

And that's hypocritical coming from a guy who loves John Stuart Mill.

I love Hamilton too. And Lincoln. And FDR. Does that mean I have to support their more Machiavellian approaches to particular problems?

No you literally said "the ends do not justify the means".

Doesn't sound very utilitarian to me.

[Wallenburg]

I love Hamilton too. And Lincoln. And FDR. Does that mean I have to support their more Machiavellian approaches to particular problems?

No you literally said "the ends do not justify the means".

Doesn't sound very utilitarian to me.

It sounds completely compatible with utilitarianism to me.

[Unnamed island state]

No you literally said "the ends do not justify the means".

Doesn't sound very utilitarian to me.

It sounds completely compatible with utilitarianism to me.

Ends don't justify means in utilitarianism?

Find it here.

[Fartsniffage]

Allegedly yes. The concept of left and right-wing supposedly originated during the French Revolution when supporters of the King sat on the right of the National Assembly and the more radical revolutionaries on the left. Or so the narrative goes.

Allegedly? We did.

France invented the idea of left wing?

We certainly did. Even coined the term socialism as it is understood today.

Strange thing? I actually have a degree in politics. I probably heard that in the first week and mentally filed it under "shit that doesn't matter" and so promptly forgot about it.

[The Greater Aryan Race]

Does the left not encourage immigration? Does the left, in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the Scandinavian countries, and maybe even the Germanic countries (I'm not sure) not oppose assimilation and advocate communitarianism?

I was under the impression that both mainstream Left and Right parties in Europe support and encourage mass immigration, save for the more extreme movements.

As for the multiculturalist charge, I'm aware so far that in England, it has usually been Labour that was responsible for supporting and implementing the multiculturalist experiment. I regrettably am not so familiar with Germany. Now you lot in France on the other hand, are more...enthusiastic in assimilating the new immigrants, though that doesn't seem to be working very well.

[Olerand]

Allegedly? We did.


We certainly did. Even coined the term socialism as it is understood today.

Strange thing? I actually have a degree in politics. I probably heard that in the first week and mentally filed it under "shit that doesn't matter" and so promptly forgot about it.

Which is perfectly fine; but I just want to make sure people remember that we invented the term, and in no way is the left some sort of catch-all NGO to defend the right of the "marginalized", no matter their heinous ideologies.

[Distruzio]

... maybe we're not on the same page here. I'm no fan of leftism but I don't see a clear arrow from immigration to leftists here. You'll have to do a better job pointing at something and saying, "this shit! This shit right here is leftism! Isn't that fucked up?"

Right now you're pointing at the disheveled masses running from war and saying, "there's too many of you! Fucking leftists!"

That's like seeing the dirty dishes piling up in your sink and concluding that the reason they exist is trees. Until you can identify the way the trees caused the increase in dishes I'm going to remain confused about what the hell you're talking about.

Their claim is that somehow the Left is responsible for encouraging mass, unrestricted immigration of teh ebul darkies into Europe, thereby polluting the cultural and spiritual wellbeing of the White race.

On top of that, the narrative goes that the Left is responsible for enforcing multiculturalist policies elsewhere while cosying up to minority groups in the European states, thereby preventing any sense of meaningful integration between the immigrants and the European residents.

... got it. Trees caused the dishes. Makes perfect sense.

[Olerand]

Does the left not encourage immigration? Does the left, in the Anglo-Saxon countries, the Scandinavian countries, and maybe even the Germanic countries (I'm not sure) not oppose assimilation and advocate communitarianism?

I was under the impression that both mainstream Left and Right parties in Europe support and encourage mass immigration, save for the more extreme movements.

As for the multiculturalist charge, I'm aware so far that in England, it has usually been Labour that was responsible for supporting and implementing the multiculturalist experiment. I regrettably am not so familiar with Germany. Now you lot in France on the other hand, are more...enthusiastic in assimilating the new immigrants, though that doesn't seem to be working very well.

The right is less so and less so, however, wouldn't you say? Except for Germany, or yet again, Merkel; the French media has been reporting on the growing rift between the CSU/Schauble/de Maizière and Merkel today.

Well, neither is Britain's model. At least in ours, our politicians will not accept a fragment of the reactionary things that the British will accept for the sake of "good relations" or "multiculturalism".

[Fartsniffage]

Strange thing? I actually have a degree in politics. I probably heard that in the first week and mentally filed it under "shit that doesn't matter" and so promptly forgot about it.

Which is perfectly fine; but I just want to make sure people remember that we invented the term, and in no way is the left some sort of catch-all NGO to defend the right of the "marginalized", no matter their heinous ideologies.

You are aware that things change over time? I mean, you're pretty right wing but I doubt you'd advocate for the return of a French monarchy?

[Baltenstein]

I was under the impression that both mainstream Left and Right parties in Europe support and encourage mass immigration, save for the more extreme movements.

As for the multiculturalist charge, I'm aware so far that in England, it has usually been Labour that was responsible for supporting and implementing the multiculturalist experiment. I regrettably am not so familiar with Germany. Now you lot in France on the other hand, are more...enthusiastic in assimilating the new immigrants, though that doesn't seem to be working very well.

The right is less so and less so, however, wouldn't you say? Except for Germany, or yet again, Merkel; the French media has been reporting on the growing rift between the CSU/Schauble/de Maizière and Merkel today.

Do they also report of the growing rift between Merkel and societal mainstream on the matter?

[The Prosperous Peoples]

As someone who lives in America, I have a hard time fully imagining your predicament and perspective, however, I do share some views that the refugees should be a little more respectful. Also, I do not respect people based on religion. It is my, and many others ' belief, that there are two types of people, the nice ones and the ones that drag their wife and child onto a train track. Therefore, I do support some of these refugees move into the European area, but not those who do such things. The Islamic Culture is very different than that of many of us Christians, and thus we have a hard time accepting them, however I believe we can join together with those that are willing to accept our culture, kindness and respect as well as give their own. Those who are unwilling to abide by these rules and respect the beliefs of others should not be allowed out of their country until they learn their lesson. If they can't show kindness, then perhaps they can't receive it, either.

[The Greater Aryan Race]

The right is less so and less so, however, wouldn't you say? Except for Germany, or yet again, Merkel; the French media has been reporting on the growing rift between the CSU/Schauble/de Maizière and Merkel today.

Well, neither is Britain's model. At least in ours, our politicians will not accept a fragment of the reactionary things that the British will accept for the sake of "good relations" or "multiculturalism".

Tbh isn't the rift between Merkel and the CSU mainly over her decision to welcome the refugees into Europe when most of the other European states have dug their hands into their pockets instead?

Britain's model is the way it is because no sane politician who wants to remain in Whitehall will recommend mending British immigration policy without charges of "Racist!" and "Xenophobe!". The last politician to try that was Enoch Powell and look where that got him

[Olerand]

Which is perfectly fine; but I just want to make sure people remember that we invented the term, and in no way is the left some sort of catch-all NGO to defend the right of the "marginalized", no matter their heinous ideologies.

You are aware that things change over time? I mean, you're pretty right wing but I doubt you'd advocate for the return of a French monarchy?

Um...I'm not right-wing, though. I'm a laïcard social-democrat Jacobin through and through; but to Anglo-Saxon liberals, my opposition to multiculturalism apparently makes me right-wing. And the Anglo-Saxon world not being the world at large, and the left and its foundation not being a creation of theirs, I don't think they should get to decide what it is for everyone.

The right is less so and less so, however, wouldn't you say? Except for Germany, or yet again, Merkel; the French media has been reporting on the growing rift between the CSU/Schauble/de Maizière and Merkel today.

Do they also report of the growing rift between Merkel and societal mainstream on the matter?

Yeah, but politicians can coup her out of office; society at large can't.

[Baltenstein]

I think you should stop using the word "Anglo-Saxon" that often. It's as weird as calling the French people "Gauls" or "Franks".