It's time for leftists to wake up before they destroy Europe

[Free Tristania]

Does that include the ones mowed down by the NKVD because they were fleeing (only 1 in 20 soldiers had a rifle back in 1943) or the officers shot by Stalin when they retreated or the people chased off their land during the 1941 retreat ?

Yes, a third of all Soviet war deaths were the result of Red Army commissars

They had entire blocking regiments to shoot deserters when they were fleeing. That's where they did have weapons for.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yes, I believe he was as well.

But the War in the East was Hitler's idea, based on his opinion of racial superiority in the Aryan race.
He brought that on Germany. No-one else. He threw away a twelth of his own country's people in the name of racial policy.

To an extent, yes. He needed the resources: and Eastern Europe had them - plus the Poles and the Czechs had substantial German minorities and, I think, we all know how they treated them....

He needed resources to fuel an expansion that could not occur.
Hitler was an idiot who might as well have been chasing fairy dust.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yes, a third of all Soviet war deaths were the result of Red Army commissars

They had entire blocking regiments to shoot deserters when they were fleeing. That's where they did have weapons for.

And you believe they are responsible for one third of all Soviet war dead?

[Free Tristania]

Correction: they were desperate enough to give their votes to an Austrian-born demagogue because they were literally starving because of the Allied plans to cripple Germany forever after WWI.

The reparations in the Versailles treaty were something like 1-2% of German GDP from 1919 to 1932 and would not have caused many issues, had the German government not pursued a policy of economic suicide.

Wrong. In 1921 the reparations alone were costing Germany some 42% of her budget (The Lights That Failed, by Zara Steiner).

[Mefpan]

Actually problem wasn't that Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Problem was that it wasn't harsh enough.

Have you actually read it ?

Yeah, Versailles was harsh and unjust. But in terms of crippling Germany, it was too soft and the Allies too unwilling to enforce it. It scored the perfect middle ground between failing to do what it was meant to and being just bad enough to piss everyone off.

[Free Tristania]

They had entire blocking regiments to shoot deserters when they were fleeing. That's where they did have weapons for.

And you believe they are responsible for one third of all Soviet war dead?

Their incompetence ? Certainly. Case: look at Finland 1939 and that wasn't even a real army.

[Free Tristania]

Have you actually read it ?

Yeah, Versailles was harsh and unjust. But in terms of crippling Germany, it was too soft and the Allies too unwilling to enforce it. It scored the perfect middle ground between failing to do what it was meant to and being just bad enough to piss everyone off.

Calling 42% percent of the budget while occupying the only economically viable parts "just" would be a bit of a stretch, no ?

[Imperializt Russia]

And you believe they are responsible for one third of all Soviet war dead?

Their incompetence ? Certainly. Case: look at Finland 1939 and that wasn't even a real army.

In 1939, nor was the Red Army.

The Red Army did not personally kill one in every three Soviet war dead.

[Free Tristania]

Correction: they were desperate enough to give their votes to an Austrian-born demagogue because they were literally starving because of the Allied plans to cripple Germany forever after WWI.

Thanks for pointing out the point where the learning experience for the Western Allies set in. You know, the point where they figured out that being an asshole to a defeated populace leads to resentment, hatred and a burning desire for vengeance at any cost?

You're saying we should forget those lessons?

In the case of IS we certainly should because they would do far worse to us. Far worse.

[Trumpostan]

Here is a tip for you: The Lights That Failed (Zara Steiner). German machinations ? More like French. You can look it up and don't forget to read the Versailles Treaty if you want to be disgusted. We can safely say that the scumbag Adolf Hitler was made in Versailles.

Actually problem wasn't that Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Problem was that it wasn't harsh enough.

Not occupying Germany for a few years was a huge mistake.

And another thing the Germans like to forget is the Brest-Litovsk treaty they imposed on Russia. Which was far harsher than anything in Versailles. I will concede the point about the 'war guilt clause' but not anything else.
Brest-Litovsk is largely forgotten because Versailles overruled it, but had the Germans won, or achieved stalemate on the Western Front it would have stood.

It was absolutely right that Germany should pay for the destroyed countryside of Belgium and northern France. After all, the German attack on France was unprovoked.

[Gravlen]

But the Hague is a joke though.

With The Hague I mean the ICC. This is a little bit older than the ICC that nobody recognises.

I tried to follow your argument, but you frankly don't seem to have any grasp of what you think you're talking about. You seem to be mixing up the 1907 Hague regulations, the Geneva Conventions, and the Rome Statutes without actually arriving at a point...

[Free Tristania]

Their incompetence ? Certainly. Case: look at Finland 1939 and that wasn't even a real army.

In 1939, nor was the Red Army.

The Red Army did not personally kill one in every three Soviet war dead.

They killed some 100.000 in the Baltic and Poland in just one month in 1941 (shooting prisoners). Do you really think they did not have some time to kill some more ?

[Ardavia]

Yeah, Versailles was harsh and unjust. But in terms of crippling Germany, it was too soft and the Allies too unwilling to enforce it. It scored the perfect middle ground between failing to do what it was meant to and being just bad enough to piss everyone off.

Calling 42% percent of the budget while occupying the only economically viable parts "just" would be a bit of a stretch, no ?

They paid off about 19 billion gold mark, according to Ferguson. This is about 2.4% of the national income between 1919 and 1932.

And you believe they are responsible for one third of all Soviet war dead?

Their incompetence ? Certainly. Case: look at Finland 1939 and that wasn't even a real army.

Finland's army in 1939 fought on familiar terrain, in a defensive war with prepared defenses, against an army entirely unprepared for the war they found themselves fighting and the terrain they did so in.

They still got their asses beat militarily once the Red Army got their asses in gear after the initial showings, and had the Winter War gone on further than it did and Finland not agreed to the peace, they would have lost.

[Free Tristania]

Actually problem wasn't that Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Problem was that it wasn't harsh enough.

And another thing the Germans like to forget is the Brest-Litovsk treaty they imposed on Russia. Which was far harsher than anything in Versailles. I will concede the point about the 'war guilt clause' but not anything else.
Brest-Litovsk is largely forgotten because Versailles overruled it, but had the Germans won, or achieved stalemate on the Western Front it would have stood.

Maybe. But the Germans didn't take the more economically viable parts of Russia: instead they created Poland and the Baltic out of it. You know: some of which countries the Russians had wiped from the map.

[Immoren]

Have you actually read it ?

Yeah, Versailles was harsh and unjust. But in terms of crippling Germany, it was too soft and the Allies too unwilling to enforce it. It scored the perfect middle ground between failing to do what it was meant to and being just bad enough to piss everyone off.

Clearly Germany should've been chopped into pieces after the WWI

And you believe they are responsible for one third of all Soviet war dead?

Their incompetence ? Certainly. Case: look at Finland 1939 and that wasn't even a real army.

...
...
What?

[Imperializt Russia]

In 1939, nor was the Red Army.

The Red Army did not personally kill one in every three Soviet war dead.

They killed some 100.000 in the Baltic and Poland in just one month in 1941 (shooting prisoners). Do you really think they did not have some time to kill some more ?

Eight million more?

[Free Tristania]

Calling 42% percent of the budget while occupying the only economically viable parts "just" would be a bit of a stretch, no ?

They paid off about 19 billion gold mark, according to Ferguson. This is about 2.4% of the national income between 1919 and 1932.
.

Says Niall Ferguson. Never mind.

Finland's army in 1939 fought on familiar terrain, in a defensive war with prepared defenses, against an army entirely unprepared for the war they found themselves fighting and the terrain they did so in.

And they lost a small battle against 110.000 men with rusty rifles.

[Scandinavian Nations]

Actually problem wasn't that Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Problem was that it wasn't harsh enough.

Not nearly enough.

Hopefully it's taught the world a lesson: once you defeat an ideologically motivated opponent, don't just check if they're down. Make sure they stay that way and recover only on your order, following your design, under your control. The right to self-determination extends only as far as it doesn't endanger the rights of others.

[Free Tristania]

They killed some 100.000 in the Baltic and Poland in just one month in 1941 (shooting prisoners). Do you really think they did not have some time to kill some more ?

Eight million more?

Battlefield incompetence. Particularly in 1941, 1942. After that Stalin sacked most of the idiots and replaced them with more decent officers.

[Imperializt Russia]

Actually problem wasn't that Treaty of Versailles was too harsh. Problem was that it wasn't harsh enough.

Not nearly enough.

Hopefully it's taught the world a lesson: once you defeat an ideologically motivated opponent, don't just check if they're down. Make sure they stay that way and recover only on your order, following your design, under your control. The right to self-determination extends only as far as it doesn't endanger the rights of others.

A lesson well-learnt the second time around.

[Trumpostan]

And another thing the Germans like to forget is the Brest-Litovsk treaty they imposed on Russia. Which was far harsher than anything in Versailles. I will concede the point about the 'war guilt clause' but not anything else.
Brest-Litovsk is largely forgotten because Versailles overruled it, but had the Germans won, or achieved stalemate on the Western Front it would have stood.

Maybe. But the Germans didn't take the more economically viable parts of Russia: instead they created Poland and the Baltic out of it. You know: some of which countries the Russians had wiped from the map.

They merely took all of Ukraine (aka the 'grain shed') and parts of the Caucasus (oil). Hey, eff those Russians, let them starve, no big deal you know...

[Free Tristania]

Clearly Germany should've been chopped into pieces after the WWI

Which is exactly what they did.

What?

The Finns kicked their red arses into next week. Look up Winter War.

[Ardavia]

They paid off about 19 billion gold mark, according to Ferguson. This is about 2.4% of the national income between 1919 and 1932.
.

Says Niall Ferguson. Never mind.

Finland's army in 1939 fought on familiar terrain, in a defensive war with prepared defenses, against an army entirely unprepared for the war they found themselves fighting and the terrain they did so in.

And they lost a small battle against 110.000 men with rusty rifles.

...
...
Rusty rifles? Hahaha, what?

[Free Tristania]

Maybe. But the Germans didn't take the more economically viable parts of Russia: instead they created Poland and the Baltic out of it. You know: some of which countries the Russians had wiped from the map.

They merely took all of Ukraine (aka the 'grain shed') and parts of the Caucasus (oil). Hey, eff those Russians, let them starve, no big deal you know...

Nope

[Free Tristania]

Says Niall Ferguson. Never mind.


And they lost a small battle against 110.000 men with rusty rifles.

...
...
Rusty rifles? Hahaha, what?

The Finnish Army in 1939 was perhaps even worse off than our own army in 1940. It was a joke. They lacked proper equipment, they had very few tanks, barely any aircraft, the equipment they had dated back to WWI.