The General Car Thread.

[Auzkhia]

Porsche CEO: Sports cars should always have steering wheels

This is obvious, but I wouldn't mind autonomous cars, as long I can still drive them. Being a passenger is boring. I like driving, even if it has its problems, the good stuff outweighs the bad. Also, there will be a new 911 someday, it'll still be a 911, especially in looks, because they've got it right years ago.

[Petrolheadia]

Porsche CEO: Sports cars should always have steering wheels

This is obvious, but I wouldn't mind autonomous cars, as long I can still drive them. Being a passenger is boring. I like driving, even if it has its problems, the good stuff outweighs the bad. Also, there will be a new 911 someday, it'll still be a 911, especially in looks, because they've got it right years ago.

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

[Auzkhia]

Porsche CEO: Sports cars should always have steering wheels

This is obvious, but I wouldn't mind autonomous cars, as long I can still drive them. Being a passenger is boring. I like driving, even if it has its problems, the good stuff outweighs the bad. Also, there will be a new 911 someday, it'll still be a 911, especially in looks, because they've got it right years ago.

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

If you don't want actually to drive your car, Porsche is the last place to look, and Ferrari as well.

[The Two Jerseys]

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

If you don't want actually to drive your car, Porsche is the last place to look, and Ferrari as well.

No, Morgan is the last place to look.

[Petrolheadia]

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

If you don't want actually to drive your car, Porsche is the last place to look, and Ferrari as well.

The Panamera and Cayenne show they are ready for compromises, so I think it may be some sour grapes/virtue signalling-type situation.

[Petrolheadia]

If you don't want actually to drive your car, Porsche is the last place to look, and Ferrari as well.

No, Morgan is the last place to look.

Ever heard of Radical Cars?

[The Two Jerseys]

No, Morgan is the last place to look.

Ever heard of Radical Cars?

Do they still think that it's 1936?

[Petrolheadia]

Ever heard of Radical Cars?

Do they still think that it's 1936?

No, they think fitting a Ford/crate V8 motor and some wheels to a bathtub can make it a track car.

Also Ariel, BAC, Zenvo and Caterham.

[Petrolheadia]

Imagine it's 1996. You are a 50-year-old fertilizer factory worker from Tennesse and your younger daughter is about to turn 16. So, using your somewhat low budget, you're going to buy her a car. It has to be relatively cheap to run and safe. The options are:
- 1986 manual 1.6 Ford Escort 3-door hatchback,
- 1977 manual 260 ci Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme, faded paint and general wear,
- 1981 automatic 1.8 Toyota Corolla sedan with general wear and no front hubcaps,
- 1985 automatic 305 ci Pontiac Parisienne sedan with some dents,
- 1975 automatic 250 ci Chevrolet Camaro with faded paint and general wear,
- 1979 automatic 307 ci Oldsmobile 88 sedan with a mismatched Buick LeSabre fender,
- 1977 automatic 400 ci Pontiac Bonneville sedan, spent 5 years behind a barn,
- 1982 automatic 2.2 Plymouth Reliant sedan with no hubcaps,
- 1976 automatic 305 ci Chevrolet Monte Carlo, faded paint.

Which one would you buy? I'd choose the Plymouth.

[NeoOasis]

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

wut? Porsche has the full backing of the VW Automotive Group. They don't need to develop any technology since VW is working on it. I do see Porsche as being one of the last mass market makers to go full autonomous.

[Auzkhia]

Why do I feel like it's a sour grapes situation, because they can't develop the technology needed?

wut? Porsche has the full backing of the VW Automotive Group. They don't need to develop any technology since VW is working on it. I do see Porsche as being one of the last mass market makers to go full autonomous.

I think full autonomous driving is overestimated, then again most people are a bit too optimistic on technology. Autonomous cars won't be ready until they can handle the Death Road in Bolivia.

[NeoOasis]

wut? Porsche has the full backing of the VW Automotive Group. They don't need to develop any technology since VW is working on it. I do see Porsche as being one of the last mass market makers to go full autonomous.

I think full autonomous driving is overestimated, then again most people are a bit too optimistic on technology. Autonomous cars won't be ready until they can handle the Death Road in Bolivia.

I doubt we'll ever truly reach Level 5 all over the world. I think the US will hit it within our lives. Still, I think Porsche will offer Level 4 driving around the same time the other makers do it, but full scale the future is here type driving... yeah, they'll be last along with a few others.

Personally I'm a big fan of analog driving, and I'm not a huge fan of lane keeping features and autonomous braking. I'm of the mind that the driver should pay attention well enough to be able to prevent any wrecks on his/her own. But who am I to argue with life saving features that will not only make our roads safe, but allow for faster and more efficient travel?


So here's a fun question. Do you think your country will be ready in your lifetimes for Level 5 Autonomous Driving? What do you think is holding it from happening?

[Costa Fierro]

Saabs are safe, so safe that it bankrupted them.

I think the bankruptcy was less to do with their products and more to do with the fact that they were attached at the hip to the steaming juggernaut of failure that was Old GM. Saab likely could have soldiered on albeit reduced in size and cash flow under different owners.

[Costa Fierro]

If you don't want actually to drive your car, Porsche is the last place to look, and Ferrari as well.

The Panamera and Cayenne show they are ready for compromises, so I think it may be some sour grapes/virtue signalling-type situation.

The Panamera and the Cayenne show that Porsche is listening more to its bean counters more than anything else.

[Petrolheadia]

Saabs are safe, so safe that it bankrupted them.

I think the bankruptcy was less to do with their products and more to do with the fact that they were attached at the hip to the steaming juggernaut of failure that was Old GM. Saab likely could have soldiered on albeit reduced in size and cash flow under different owners.

I think the reason Volvo survived and Saab did not was that Ford tried to estabilish Volvo as a legitimate premium brand, something like a cheaper Jaguar Land Rover, while GM just rode on Saab's reputation.

When GM wanted to build a Saab compact, they just swapped the badges on an Impreza wagon and sold it only in one of the least compact-craving market - North America.

When FoMoCo wanted to build a Volvo compact, they took the all-new Focus platform and had Volvo develop 3 styles: sedan, wagon and hatchback, selling it worldwide with some of Volvo's own engines.

[Petrolheadia]

Imagine you're a 72-year-old pensioner from Tennessee. Your 1983 Buick Century Estate isn't really any good anymore, and the 1979 C10 is only a 3-seater and a DIYer beater, so you're looking for another car, automatic again. It has to mix comfort, cheapness of running and at least decent performance. The options are:
- 2001 BMW 740i,
- 1997 Lincoln Town Car SWB,
- 2005 2.0 Ford Focus ZX4,
- 2003 2.0 Toyota Camry sedan,
- 1991 4.0 4WD Jeep Cherokee 4-door,
- 2001 Nissan Quest,
- 2001 3.0 AWD Ford Escape,
- 1998 2.5 Ford Contour,
- 2000 4.0 2WD Jeep Grand Cherokee,
- 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP sedan,
- 2005 3.4 2WD Buick Rendezvous,
- 2002 Buick LeSabre,
- 1993 Mercedes 300E sedan.

Which one would you buy?

I think that the Lincoln and Mercedes are interesting, but the LeSabre is a good "aurea mediocritas" car that would burn less gas than the Lincoln and cost less to fix than the Merc.
Although it's still a bit of a Sophie's Choice.

[Auzkhia]

The Panamera and Cayenne show they are ready for compromises, so I think it may be some sour grapes/virtue signalling-type situation.

The Panamera and the Cayenne show that Porsche is listening more to its bean counters more than anything else.

The Panamera is a four door 928, it's not that new. Compromises are only a thing, if you're a purist who think Porsche should only make 911s and everything else might as well be Audis.

Also, the Cayenne didn't save Porsche, the Boxster did.

[Petrolheadia]

The Panamera and the Cayenne show that Porsche is listening more to its bean counters more than anything else.

The Panamera is a four door 928, it's not that new. Compromises are only a thing, if you're a purist who think Porsche should only make 911s and everything else might as well be Audis.

Also, the Cayenne didn't save Porsche, the Boxster did.

It put them on the right track, and the Cayenne sealed that fate.

[Patridam]

By the way, how's the new GM car thing going?

Well, I will be in the department I interned in for at least a year, up to 3; and that is in a building off the technical center that has parting not sorted by vehicle brand, so I plan to keep my Lincoln until I am reassigned or until it has a problem not worth fixing from a financial point of view.

After that? Well, I am as of yet unsure if I would really want to buy a brand-new vehicle in the first place.... brand new cars rarely make financial sense, only bordering on it unless you keep them for 10 years or something, and I'd probably only keep mine for 4 years or so. Plus all the vehicles GM is making new right now that I am even vaguely interested in are $30,000 to $45,000, whereas abiding by the old fashioned rules of a 4 year auto loan that costs no more than 10% of your aftertax income, at a 3.5% interest rate I shouldn't loan more than $22,500 which would be quite a healthy down payment ($17,500 on 40k) to save up in 2 years which should be going to a home down payment anyway. This is essentially unchanged by being a GM employee, the employee discounts are no more useful than the ones they toss around to everyone near Christmas or that a good negotiator could get anytime.

So I'd rather get a 2 or 3 year old well cared for used car/truck that has endured it's 30-40% initial depreciation (making for used prices anywhere from 18k to 28k) but still has warranty and expected reliability left. This goes back to cars that GM makes new right now or at least will by the end of the year, but which I'd buy in 2022 or so. What interesting and suitable (to me) things does GM make or will they make by the end of the year?

Thus far my choices would be, at least with the above plan:
- 2018 Buick Regal GS 3.6 AWD with Appearance Package now at $40,480 MSRP.
- 2018 or Older Cadillac ATS Premium Luxury 3.6 RWD now at $45,890 MSRP.
- 2019 Chevrolet Silverado Quad Cab Custom or LS 5.3 4WD soon to be at ~$38,000 MSRP.
- 2018 or Older Chevrolet Camaro 3.6 RWD with RS Package now at $32,025 MSRP.
- 2018 or 2017 Cadillac XT5 3.6 AWD now at $43,815 MSRP.
- 2019 Blazer 3.6 AWD, or really anything else they surprise us with, possibly?

[Petrolheadia]

By the way, how's the new GM car thing going?

Well, I will be in the department I interned in for at least a year, up to 3; and that is in a building off the technical center that has parting not sorted by vehicle brand, so I plan to keep my Lincoln until I am reassigned or until it has a problem not worth fixing from a financial point of view.

After that? Well, I am as of yet unsure if I would really want to buy a brand-new vehicle in the first place.... brand new cars rarely make financial sense, only bordering on it unless you keep them for 10 years or something, and I'd probably only keep mine for 4 years or so. Plus all the vehicles GM is making new right now that I am even vaguely interested in are $30,000 to $45,000, whereas abiding by the old fashioned rules of a 4 year auto loan that costs no more than 10% of your aftertax income, at a 3.5% interest rate I shouldn't loan more than $22,500 which would be quite a healthy down payment ($17,500 on 40k) to save up in 2 years which should be going to a home down payment anyway. This is essentially unchanged by being a GM employee, the employee discounts are no more useful than the ones they toss around to everyone near Christmas or that a good negotiator could get anytime.

So I'd rather get a 2 or 3 year old well cared for used car/truck that has endured it's 30-40% initial depreciation (making for used prices anywhere from 18k to 28k) but still has warranty and expected reliability left. This goes back to cars that GM makes new right now or at least will by the end of the year, but which I'd buy in 2022 or so. What interesting and suitable (to me) things does GM make or will they make by the end of the year?

Thus far my choices would be, at least with the above plan:
- 2018 Buick Regal GS 3.6 AWD with Appearance Package now at $40,480 MSRP.
- 2018 or Older Cadillac ATS Premium Luxury 3.6 RWD now at $45,890 MSRP.
- 2019 Chevrolet Silverado Quad Cab Custom or LS 5.3 4WD soon to be at ~$38,000 MSRP.
- 2018 or Older Chevrolet Camaro 3.6 RWD with RS Package now at $32,025 MSRP.
- 2018 or 2017 Cadillac XT5 3.6 AWD now at $43,815 MSRP.
- 2019 Blazer 3.6 AWD, or really anything else they surprise us with, possibly?

If I were you, I'd probably get the ATS or XT5.

The Camaro is rather pointless with the Cadillac around, according to road tests, the Insignia/Commodore/Regal does not handle too well - Renault's Qashqai-based Talisman outhandled an Insignia in one of Motor's road tests, the Silverado and Blazer are not necessary for non-truck stuff.

[Elwher]

The Camaro is rather pointless with the Cadillac around,

I would be interested in why you think so. They seem to me to be appealing to very distinct market segments.

[Petrolheadia]

The Camaro is rather pointless with the Cadillac around,

I would be interested in why you think so. They seem to me to be appealing to very distinct market segments.

In this sentence, I meant the market sector of Patridam and his potential family.

[Patridam]

If I were you, I'd probably get the ATS or XT5.

The Camaro is rather pointless with the Cadillac around, according to road tests,

What does that even mean? It's on the same platform as the ATS, yes, but if you're going to say that makes one irrelevant..... if anything its the Camaro that makes the ATS pointless, not the other way around:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-che ... -the-year/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/f ... we-wanted/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/is-the-a ... 1713159396

the Insignia/Commodore/Regal does not handle too well - Renault's Qashqai-based Talisman outhandled an Insignia in one of Motor's road tests,

I cannot find this article, but the Insignia is not offered in a trim equivalent to the Regal GS with its additional handling/braking/suspension refinements, nor with anything more than the base Regal 2.0 liter engine - the GS has a more powerful V6. Every review I have seen and read has quite liked it - it is as fast as, more comfortable than, more spacious than, and thousands or tens of thousands cheaper than similar Japanese and German sedans. The negatives have been complaints about steering (inconsistent, some say it is too heavy, others too light, some too touchy, others too slow) and the Buick brand image/cache. Awful shallow complaints if I do say so myself.

If you're going to be that picky about handling, the Buick is not the place on the list to start (*cough* crossovers *cough*).

the Silverado and Blazer are not necessary for non-truck stuff.

Never mind that an extremely large portion of vehicles on the road in the USA are trucks and yet are almost never used to haul or tow, rather, they have merely replaced the role the large sedan/coupe once held.

Or, you know, that the Blazer won't be a friggin' truck at all, and will instead be a masculine looking midsize crossover on the SWB C1XX FWD/AWD platform, just like the XT5 (consider it a shorter, two row version of the Traverse).

[Petrolheadia]

If I were you, I'd probably get the ATS or XT5.

The Camaro is rather pointless with the Cadillac around, according to road tests,

What does that even mean? It's on the same platform as the ATS, yes, but if you're going to say that makes one irrelevant..... if anything its the Camaro that makes the ATS pointless, not the other way around:
http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-che ... -the-year/
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/f ... we-wanted/
https://oppositelock.kinja.com/is-the-a ... 1713159396

the Insignia/Commodore/Regal does not handle too well - Renault's Qashqai-based Talisman outhandled an Insignia in one of Motor's road tests,

I cannot find this article, but the Insignia is not offered in a trim equivalent to the Regal GS with its additional handling/braking/suspension refinements, nor with anything more than the base Regal 2.0 liter engine - the GS has a more powerful V6. Every review I have seen and read has quite liked it - it is as fast as, more comfortable than, more spacious than, and thousands or tens of thousands cheaper than similar Japanese and German sedans. The negatives have been complaints about steering (inconsistent, some say it is too heavy, others too light, some too touchy, others too slow) and the Buick brand image/cache. Awful shallow complaints if I do say so myself.

If you're going to be that picky about handling, the Buick is not the place on the list to start (*cough* crossovers *cough*).

the Silverado and Blazer are not necessary for non-truck stuff.

Never mind that an extremely large portion of vehicles on the road in the USA are trucks and yet are almost never used to haul or tow, rather, they have merely replaced the role the large sedan/coupe once held.

Or, you know, that the Blazer won't be a friggin' truck at all, and will instead be a masculine looking midsize crossover on the SWB C1XX FWD/AWD platform, just like the XT5 (consider it a shorter, two row version of the Traverse).

First, the "according to road tests" thing related to the Buick.

Second, the road tests do say the Regal's handling is not that great. It's not a bad car, but it's not really sporty.

Third, while a truck can be used for non-truck stuff, it just can. Better to just outright buy a fullsize sedan or crossover.

Fourth, when I heard "Blazer", I imagined something like the 4Runner and upcoming Bronco, not a Malibu to the Equinox' Cruze and Traverse's Impala.

[Auzkhia]

My ideal is second car is basically a V6 or Turbo Miata with some comfy seats. Not now, but I'll see what comes up in the next few years. Maybe I'll have a budget then.

I plan on buying a roadster or convertible for cruising and autocross after I get my first real paycheck or a garage, because that'd be easier to manage a second car.