The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Diopolis]

Medjugorje is, at best, a pious fraud. The local ordinary's investigation rendered a verdict of constat de non supernaturalitate and the episcopal conference rendered a verdict of non constat de supernaturalitate. The seers were plainly fed lines by their Franciscan spiritual director(really, the virgin Mary appearing to condemn a relatively obscure papal bull only applicable in one tiny part of the world?) who, by the way, got laicized for sexual misconduct, heresy, and disobedience. The only statement from the vatican on the apparitions was that they were completely fabricated.

Actually, the Vatican is still considering the matter at the moment, and is expected to make an official final report this fall, which will be interesting to see. I believe that they have been collecting reports since the new Pope was elected in 2013, because that was something that he was interested in. My thoughts are that they have not made it legitimate yet, because it is still happening. There is no denying that there are miracles taking place there, as I know several people who have been there and have seen the miracles, including my grandma, who is the most honest woman in the world. My grandma said that she saw the sun spinning, and that the rosary she was praying turned to gold.

I'm well aware the Vatican is conducting an official investigation- and that so far, what we know of their reactions would make them about as skeptical of Medjugorje apparitions as they are of the Palmarian apparitions. I'm well aware that many have reported miracles there, but it is the judgement of the local ordinary that they are not supernatural, and he is the relevant authority in the area. Face it, the evidence points to the Franciscans(well, one Franciscan) inventing the whole thing to try to change a long-running dispute in the area.

[Schiltzberg]

Actually, the Vatican is still considering the matter at the moment, and is expected to make an official final report this fall, which will be interesting to see. I believe that they have been collecting reports since the new Pope was elected in 2013, because that was something that he was interested in. My thoughts are that they have not made it legitimate yet, because it is still happening. There is no denying that there are miracles taking place there, as I know several people who have been there and have seen the miracles, including my grandma, who is the most honest woman in the world. My grandma said that she saw the sun spinning, and that the rosary she was praying turned to gold.

I'm well aware the Vatican is conducting an official investigation- and that so far, what we know of their reactions would make them about as skeptical of Medjugorje apparitions as they are of the Palmarian apparitions. I'm well aware that many have reported miracles there, but it is the judgement of the local ordinary that they are not supernatural, and he is the relevant authority in the area. Face it, the evidence points to the Franciscans(well, one Franciscan) inventing the whole thing to try to change a long-running dispute in the area.

Well, I see what you are saying, but do you know what I mean? If it is a hoax, then that means that literally thousands of people have lied about seeing and experiencing miracles that never really happened, which seems strange to me. The types of claimed miracles are very Marion, with the Sun thing being like Fatima, and the healings of the sick being like Lourdes, so it makes sense that it would be Marion intercession that is allowing these miracles to happen.

[Diopolis]

I'm well aware the Vatican is conducting an official investigation- and that so far, what we know of their reactions would make them about as skeptical of Medjugorje apparitions as they are of the Palmarian apparitions. I'm well aware that many have reported miracles there, but it is the judgement of the local ordinary that they are not supernatural, and he is the relevant authority in the area. Face it, the evidence points to the Franciscans(well, one Franciscan) inventing the whole thing to try to change a long-running dispute in the area.

Well, I see what you are saying, but do you know what I mean? If it is a hoax, then that means that literally thousands of people have lied about seeing and experiencing miracles that never really happened, which seems strange to me. The types of claimed miracles are very Marion, with the Sun thing being like Fatima, and the healings of the sick being like Lourdes, so it makes sense that it would be Marion intercession that is allowing these miracles to happen.

Seeing something that could be described as a miracle doesn't mean Mary appeared. Mysterious lights, in particular, just happen from time to time, especially in cases like this where people are journeying to a place looking for things like that. Healings also happen mysteriously at times. In other words, not everything extraordinary is a miracle, nor is everything unexplained a miracle. That is why we should be very cautious about declaring miracles; natural causes, the placebo effect, demonic intervention, and other things going on that may not be immediately noticeable can all have seemingly miraculous effects.
The only way to know that miracles are miracles is to go through church channels. And church channels in this case are overwhelmingly saying that these things are not miracles.

[Schiltzberg]

Well, I see what you are saying, but do you know what I mean? If it is a hoax, then that means that literally thousands of people have lied about seeing and experiencing miracles that never really happened, which seems strange to me. The types of claimed miracles are very Marion, with the Sun thing being like Fatima, and the healings of the sick being like Lourdes, so it makes sense that it would be Marion intercession that is allowing these miracles to happen.

Seeing something that could be described as a miracle doesn't mean Mary appeared. Mysterious lights, in particular, just happen from time to time, especially in cases like this where people are journeying to a place looking for things like that. Healings also happen mysteriously at times. In other words, not everything extraordinary is a miracle, nor is everything unexplained a miracle. That is why we should be very cautious about declaring miracles; natural causes, the placebo effect, demonic intervention, and other things going on that may not be immediately noticeable can all have seemingly miraculous effects.
The only way to know that miracles are miracles is to go through church channels. And church channels in this case are overwhelmingly saying that these things are not miracles.

I have heard too many extraordinary stories to say that miracles aren't happening. It is possible that they are demonic, but it wouldn't add up, because most, if not all, of the people that the miracles have happened too have been brought closer to God because of them, which would make them pointless for Satan to keep creating them.

[Diopolis]

Seeing something that could be described as a miracle doesn't mean Mary appeared. Mysterious lights, in particular, just happen from time to time, especially in cases like this where people are journeying to a place looking for things like that. Healings also happen mysteriously at times. In other words, not everything extraordinary is a miracle, nor is everything unexplained a miracle. That is why we should be very cautious about declaring miracles; natural causes, the placebo effect, demonic intervention, and other things going on that may not be immediately noticeable can all have seemingly miraculous effects.
The only way to know that miracles are miracles is to go through church channels. And church channels in this case are overwhelmingly saying that these things are not miracles.

I have heard too many extraordinary stories to say that miracles aren't happening. It is possible that they are demonic, but it wouldn't add up, because most, if not all, of the people that the miracles have happened too have been brought closer to God because of them, which would make them pointless for Satan to keep creating them.

Weird stuff happens when people go looking for it. We don't trust the message of Our Lady of Fatima because of the miracle of the sun; we trust it because of the church proclaiming it worthy of belief. While the tilma of Juan Diego is indeed a holy relic, that's not why we believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe; we believe in her because the church proclaimed her apparition worthy of belief. While unusual occurrences can indicate that something supernatural is going on, they do not, in themselves, make something worthy of belief.
Here's a rather thorough debunking of the Medjugorje apparitions: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/cat ... djugo.html

[Nordengrund]

I want to know what fellow Christians on here think of the Churches of Christ.

It is a movement that seeks a restoration to biblical, apostolic Christianity. They were founded by Protestants, but reject being classified as such.

Some of their beliefs are believer's baptism trough complete immersion as a requirement for salvation, salvation is by both faith and works, weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and the teaching that they are the only true church. Each church is independent and autonomous and is ran by a body of elders. Also, they seem to be strongly Arminian.

I'm not a part of them, but I do find them to be a very interesting group.

[Menassa]

I want to know what fellow Christians on here think of the Churches of Christ.

It is a movement that seeks a restoration to biblical, apostolic Christianity. They were founded by Protestants, but reject being classified as such.

Some of their beliefs are believer's baptism trough complete immersion as a requirement for salvation, salvation is by both faith and works, weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and the teaching that they are the only true church. Each church is independent and autonomous and is ran by a body of elders. Also, they seem to be strongly Arminian.

I'm not a part of them, but I do find them to be a very interesting group.

Don't most churches teach that they are the one true Church?

[Nordengrund]

I want to know what fellow Christians on here think of the Churches of Christ.

It is a movement that seeks a restoration to biblical, apostolic Christianity. They were founded by Protestants, but reject being classified as such.

Some of their beliefs are believer's baptism trough complete immersion as a requirement for salvation, salvation is by both faith and works, weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and the teaching that they are the only true church. Each church is independent and autonomous and is ran by a body of elders. Also, they seem to be strongly Arminian.

I'm not a part of them, but I do find them to be a very interesting group.

Don't most churches teach that they are the one true Church?

I haven't been to many other denominations outside of the Baptists, but from my experience, most Protestant denominations seem to be accepting of each other. Of course, every group has some radicals who believe their sect is right. The only time I have experienced the "One true church" mentality in real life was when I attended an Seventh Day Adventist school

[Diopolis]

Don't most churches teach that they are the one true Church?

I haven't been to many other denominations outside of the Baptists, but from my experience, most Protestant denominations seem to be accepting of each other. Of course, every group has some radicals who believe their sect is right. The only time I have experienced the "One true church" mentality in real life was when I attended an Seventh Day Adventist school

Ancient churches teach that they're the one true church(although many individuals within the Catholic world, especially in the west, like to ignore this teaching or pretend the only teachings on it came from VII). So do many of the pseudo-restorationist protestants and more denominationally-inclined evangelicals(Seventh Day Adventists are in this category). So do a lot of the not actually Christian but categorized there anyway folks- Mormons in particular make that claim a lot. It's relatively weak in mainline protestantism because those churches mostly originated as national churches with fairly cozy relations with each other.

[Nordengrund]

I haven't been to many other denominations outside of the Baptists, but from my experience, most Protestant denominations seem to be accepting of each other. Of course, every group has some radicals who believe their sect is right. The only time I have experienced the "One true church" mentality in real life was when I attended an Seventh Day Adventist school

Ancient churches teach that they're the one true church(although many individuals within the Catholic world, especially in the west, like to ignore this teaching or pretend the only teachings on it came from VII). So do many of the pseudo-restorationist protestants and more denominationally-inclined evangelicals(Seventh Day Adventists are in this category). So do a lot of the not actually Christian but categorized there anyway folks- Mormons in particular make that claim a lot. It's relatively weak in mainline protestantism because those churches mostly originated as national churches with fairly cozy relations with each other.

I'm well aware of that, though my denomination is not mainline (at least I have never seen it classified as such), yet none of them hold to a "one true church" mentality.

[Efraim-Judah]

I wish whoever locked the old thread would provide a link to the new one.

[Gim]

I want to know what fellow Christians on here think of the Churches of Christ.

It is a movement that seeks a restoration to biblical, apostolic Christianity. They were founded by Protestants, but reject being classified as such.

Some of their beliefs are believer's baptism trough complete immersion as a requirement for salvation, salvation is by both faith and works, weekly observance of the Lord's Supper, and the teaching that they are the only true church. Each church is independent and autonomous and is ran by a body of elders. Also, they seem to be strongly Arminian.

I'm not a part of them, but I do find them to be a very interesting group.

Don't most churches teach that they are the one true Church?

Our church tolerates other Christian denominations, except for Catholicism, although I don't believe so.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I wish whoever locked the old thread would provide a link to the new one.

Damn, you found us.

[Ulg]

What do y'all think of the Episcopal Church's new Presiding Bishop Michael Curry? Personally I think he's excellent, the most conservative theologically of the nominated candidates. He's got quite a job to do with what her inherited though..

[Ovybia]

Don't most churches teach that they are the one true Church?

I haven't been to many other denominations outside of the Baptists, but from my experience, most Protestant denominations seem to be accepting of each other. Of course, every group has some radicals who believe their sect is right. The only time I have experienced the "One true church" mentality in real life was when I attended an Seventh Day Adventist school

I find the "accepting" attitude quite confusing. If they don't think they are the true church, why should anybody listen to them? There are disagreements on doctrine between denominations so if one denomination doesn't agree with it's own stances then why should anybody else agree with them?

[Efraim-Judah]

I wish whoever locked the old thread would provide a link to the new one.

Damn, you found us.

You cannot get rid of me that easily!

[Luminesa]

Damn, you found us.

You cannot get rid of me that easily!

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

[Gim]

You cannot get rid of me that easily!

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

I think they are the same, except for the fact that one is American and another one is Canadian.

[Luminesa]

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

I think they are the same, except for the fact that one is American and another one is Canadian.

Anglican's British, yo.

[Schiltzberg]

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

I think they are the same, except for the fact that one is American and another one is Canadian.

Are they literally exactly the same, or do they recognize different church leaders in the different parts of the world?

[Gim]

I think they are the same, except for the fact that one is American and another one is Canadian.

Anglican's British, yo.

British, right. My apologies.

[Efraim-Judah]

You cannot get rid of me that easily!

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

I would prefer not to have a box on my head thank you very much.

Episcopalians are wanna be Anglicans.(I'm joking)

[Gim]

I think they are the same, except for the fact that one is American and another one is Canadian.

Are they literally exactly the same, or do they recognize different church leaders in the different parts of the world?

Almost exactly the same, except for its name.
http://franciscan-anglican.com/explanation.htm

[Luminesa]

Oh really? *Puts a box over Efraim's head.* Now you can be crazy box-head man!

No kidding, one time I put a box on my head and walked around to kitchen with it on. It was awkward. But awesome.

ANYWAY, CHRISTIANITY THREAD...

I dunno anything about the new Episcopalian leader. What's the difference between Episcopalian and Anglican?

I would prefer not to have a box on my head thank you very much.

Episcopalians are wanna be Anglicans.(I'm joking)

*Sigh.* Fine... *Takes box off and puts it on own head.*

[Schiltzberg]

Are they literally exactly the same, or do they recognize different church leaders in the different parts of the world?

Almost exactly the same, except for its name.
http://franciscan-anglican.com/explanation.htm

Lol, because I was ruthlessly criticizing Anglicans a few days ago. LOL, sorry bro.