The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Horatio Jones]

I am officially a Roman Catholic although I couldn't really care less.

What is your view on God? How confident are you in your faith?

I believe there is some sort of God or higher being however I mostly disagree with much of Christianity. I'm a Catholic only in name.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Nah man, I love some acid now and again. Last time, I ran down the road into a snowbank, and thought the snow was grabbing my legs and pulling me in. Hauled ass back in my house just as the trees and the mountains started leaning toward me with some really malevolent vibes.

I'm drunk right now and this tripped me the fuck out

You don't even know. Scared me shitless.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I'm down for hugs, but don't let that crucifix around your neck touch me. I blister.

It is ironic that you belong to an ideology which purports to support the worst-treated in our society, yet shrink before the instrument of the torture of which (at a conservative estimate) millions in such a position were subjected to. I do not mean to be abrasive, but I suggest you show some respect.

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

[United Marxist Nations]

It is ironic that you belong to an ideology which purports to support the worst-treated in our society, yet shrink before the instrument of the torture of which (at a conservative estimate) millions in such a position were subjected to. I do not mean to be abrasive, but I suggest you show some respect.

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

The Church his followers built was one of slaves and martyrs. Whether it be St. Peter who perished upside-down upon the cross, St. Paul who was beheaded, or countless others who perished in horrible ways, the church was not yet corrupt. And, even if you bear the religion no respect, give respect to those who died at the hands of that merciless empire.

[White Chrobatia]

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

The Church his followers built was one of slaves and martyrs. Whether it be St. Peter who perished upside-down upon the cross, St. Paul who was beheaded, or countless others who perished in horrible ways, the church was not yet corrupt. And, even if you bear the religion no respect, give respect to those who died at the hands of that merciless empire.

thanks for your optimistic contribution, man

[The Archregimancy]

This Creationist assertion is common on some evangelical Christian websites, but is in fact a misrepresentation of Basil's views based on a deliberate and selective misreading of the constituent homilies of his Hexameron - a series of transcribed homilies on the Creation - and runs counter to current academic scholarship on the topic; likewise the Hexameron of Ambrose.

Ironically, as described in more detail by Carl O'Brien in his 'St. Basil's Explanation of Creation'*, the Hexameron deliberately 'eschews a sophisticated interpretation of Genesis, a stance adopted no doubt to best suit his audience, which rather than the elite of the philosophy schools, comprised a broad cross-section of Cappadocian society.' In other words, the Hexameron isn't targeted towards the educated elite who made up the core audience for his more detailed theological discussions, but was instead targeted towards uneducated peasants, who were the only contemporary audience where he felt he had to take a non-allegorical approach in order to get across what he felt was the core message of the Genesis account.

Or, as Basil's brother Gregory of Nyssa wrote: "while among such a large number of listeners, many comprehend something of [Genesis'] most sublime reasonings, many times as many do not understand the subtle investigation of ideas: men who are uncouth and artisans in humble trades, women folk, untrained in such lessons, gangs of young people, the elderly who are advanced in age; they all need such words to lead them through the visible creation with the guidance of something easily comprehensible, and they need beautiful things in it [i.e. the world] to lead them towards the knowledge of the one who made everything". In other writings for a different audience, Basil was quite happy to take an Origen-influenced allegorical approach to the Creation story and other aspects of Christian theology; or, as he wrote in his On the Holy Spirit, 'to take the literal sense and stop there, is to have the heart covered by the veil of ... literalism. Lamps are useless when the sun is shining'.

So no, the Hexameron doesn't prove that Basil - one of the more supple and subtle theologians of his era - personally believed in a literal six-day creation; it merely proves that he felt he had to assume that uneducated peasants did.

I'd like to add something - and, Arch, correct me if I'm wrong:

Many of the Church Fathers, while not believing in a literal six day creation, did not strongly disbelieve it either. They simply considered it unimportant whether the universe was literally created in six days or not. So they were perfectly willing to switch between a literal and a metaphorical interpretation depending on the audience. What mattered was the spiritual meaning of the creation story, not so much whether it literally happened or not.

I think it's a little more complex than that, and that there were shades of opinion. Clearly there were those, like Origen and St. Augustine, who thought that most or all of the Genesis creation story was allegorical, and were prepared to argue as much. Others, like St. John Chrysostom, were more inclined to be literal, at least on some issues (Chrysostom explicitly rejected, on the basis of Scripture, the common knowledge of his day that the earth was spherical). Others, like St. Basil, were more inclined to focus on the spiritual message rather than arguments over the extent to which Genesis should be taken literally; though whether this was because they were carefully catering their message to their audience or simply didn't think that it mattered that much is no doubt a matter of interpretation - and perhaps impossible to know over 1500 years on. So it's not necessarily a straightforward issue.

But what we can say, in the specific case of Basil, is that:

A) His attitude to allegory was complex; he explicitly rejected the more florid allegorical approaches of his day (of the sort that we'd recognise in Revelation) that saw allegory in the unlikeliest of places, while nonetheless embracing more restrained uses of allegory and metaphor in interpreting Scripture.

B) We know that the Hexameron was targeted to a specific audience thought to be unable to understand the 'most sublime reasonings' of Genesis rather than being a statement of a personal belief in a literal Biblical Creation - largely because Basil's own brother said as much.

[Luminesa]

I'm drunk right now and this tripped me the fuck out

You don't even know. Scared me shitless.

I am properly disturbed. Congrats, good sir.

If I wanna feel trippy, I just watch the video for "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds".

[Grand Calvert]

You don't even know. Scared me shitless.

I am properly disturbed. Congrats, good sir.

If I wanna feel trippy, I just watch the video for "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds".

How about "Come A Little Closer" by Cage the Elephant? Weirdest video ever...

[Ulomia]

So is Gnosticism still a thing?

[Luminesa]

I am properly disturbed. Congrats, good sir.

If I wanna feel trippy, I just watch the video for "Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds".

How about "Come A Little Closer" by Cage the Elephant? Weirdest video ever...

"Take Me Out" by Franz Ferdinand is a rather...interesting video, too.

Anyway, back on topic (before the mods show up, lol), so what's this about Medjugorie being fake?!

[The Archregimancy]

How about "Come A Little Closer" by Cage the Elephant? Weirdest video ever...

"Take Me Out" by Franz Ferdinand is a rather...interesting video, too.

Anyway, back on topic (before the mods show up, lol)

Too late!

But yes, let's try not to turn this into a general chat thread, please.

[The Archregimancy]

So is Gnosticism still a thing?

Yes it is.

There's still one tiny - but historically important - gnostic religion that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah and instead names John the Baptist as one of its most important prophet.

They're the Mandaeans, who practice their namesake religion. 'Manda' is Aramaic for 'knowledge', and there's reason to believe that the Mandaeans are the last surviving Classical gnostic religious group, though this is hard to demonstrate definitively. Certainly they've been in Mesopotamia for centuries, and the 'Sabians' mentioned in the Koran as 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians were almost certainly the Mandaeans; 'Sabi' being the Mandaean Aramaic word for 'baptism'.

Understandably, baptism plays a central role in their sacraments.

Precise numbers are hard to estimate, but recent events in Iraq have seen a catastrophic collapse in their numbers in their traditional homeland; there may be somewhere between 50-90,000 left worldwide, with many settling in Australia and the United States after 2003.

[Luminesa]

"Take Me Out" by Franz Ferdinand is a rather...interesting video, too.

Anyway, back on topic (before the mods show up, lol)

Too late!

But yes, let's try not to turn this into a general chat thread, please.

YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE, COPPER!!!

*Drives off in getaway car with Soldati and Alexandrians. Because I'm just that awesome.*

[Diopolis]

How about "Come A Little Closer" by Cage the Elephant? Weirdest video ever...

"Take Me Out" by Franz Ferdinand is a rather...interesting video, too.

Anyway, back on topic (before the mods show up, lol), so what's this about Medjugorie being fake?!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_ ... pparitions
Essentially, the Franciscans and diocesan clergy in the area had had a long-running territorial catfight, and one of the Franciscans decided to invent a Marian apparition to attempt to discredit the local bishop. It then got caught up in nationalism because Croatia, and the church ruled against it being a genuine apparition several times.

[Conscentia]

So is Gnosticism still a thing?

Yes it is.
There's still one tiny - but historically important - gnostic religion that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah and instead names John the Baptist as one of its most important prophet.

They're the Mandaeans, who practice their namesake religion.

'Manda' is Aramaic for 'knowledge', and there's reason to believe that the Mandaeans are the last surviving Classical gnostic religious group, though this is hard to demonstrate definitively. Certainly they've been in Mesopotamia for centuries, and the 'Sabians' mentioned in the Koran as 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians were almost certainly the Mandaeans; 'Sabi' being the Mandaean Aramaic word for 'baptism'.

Understandably, baptism plays a central role in their sacraments.

Precise numbers are hard to estimate, but recent events in Iraq have seen a catastrophic collapse in their numbers in their traditional homeland; there may be somewhere between 50-90,000 left worldwide, with many settling in Australia and the United States after 2003.

It's a shame they're apparently fond of secrecy about the details of what they believe.

[Diopolis]

Yes it is.
There's still one tiny - but historically important - gnostic religion that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah and instead names John the Baptist as one of its most important prophet.

They're the Mandaeans, who practice their namesake religion.

'Manda' is Aramaic for 'knowledge', and there's reason to believe that the Mandaeans are the last surviving Classical gnostic religious group, though this is hard to demonstrate definitively. Certainly they've been in Mesopotamia for centuries, and the 'Sabians' mentioned in the Koran as 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians were almost certainly the Mandaeans; 'Sabi' being the Mandaean Aramaic word for 'baptism'.

Understandably, baptism plays a central role in their sacraments.

Precise numbers are hard to estimate, but recent events in Iraq have seen a catastrophic collapse in their numbers in their traditional homeland; there may be somewhere between 50-90,000 left worldwide, with many settling in Australia and the United States after 2003.

It's a shame they're apparently fond of secrecy about the details of what they believe.

Considering that's one of the fundamental characteristics of gnosticism, it's not really surprising.

[Luminesa]

Yes it is.
There's still one tiny - but historically important - gnostic religion that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah and instead names John the Baptist as one of its most important prophet.

They're the Mandaeans, who practice their namesake religion.

'Manda' is Aramaic for 'knowledge', and there's reason to believe that the Mandaeans are the last surviving Classical gnostic religious group, though this is hard to demonstrate definitively. Certainly they've been in Mesopotamia for centuries, and the 'Sabians' mentioned in the Koran as 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians were almost certainly the Mandaeans; 'Sabi' being the Mandaean Aramaic word for 'baptism'.

Understandably, baptism plays a central role in their sacraments.

Precise numbers are hard to estimate, but recent events in Iraq have seen a catastrophic collapse in their numbers in their traditional homeland; there may be somewhere between 50-90,000 left worldwide, with many settling in Australia and the United States after 2003.

It's a shame they're apparently fond of secrecy about the details of what they believe.

Lol. We find one of their hideouts on Google Maps, then we show up all, "Excuse me, I don't mean to interrupt, but where is the bathroom?" And then we go inside and listen in...

Would that be illegal or would they just not let you in?

[Conscentia]

Considering that's one of the fundamental characteristics of gnosticism, it's not really surprising.

Never said or implied it was surprising.

[The Archregimancy]

Yes it is.
There's still one tiny - but historically important - gnostic religion that rejects Jesus of Nazareth as a false messiah and instead names John the Baptist as one of its most important prophet.

They're the Mandaeans, who practice their namesake religion.

'Manda' is Aramaic for 'knowledge', and there's reason to believe that the Mandaeans are the last surviving Classical gnostic religious group, though this is hard to demonstrate definitively. Certainly they've been in Mesopotamia for centuries, and the 'Sabians' mentioned in the Koran as 'People of the Book' alongside Jews and Christians were almost certainly the Mandaeans; 'Sabi' being the Mandaean Aramaic word for 'baptism'.

Understandably, baptism plays a central role in their sacraments.

Precise numbers are hard to estimate, but recent events in Iraq have seen a catastrophic collapse in their numbers in their traditional homeland; there may be somewhere between 50-90,000 left worldwide, with many settling in Australia and the United States after 2003.

It's a shame they're apparently fond of secrecy about the details of what they believe.

They're one of my more fascinating ethnoreligious groups in the Middle East.

As I note in my forthcoming co-authored peer-reviewed survey of the archaeology of historical periods in the region (apologies for the self-promotion), we tend to forget the extent to which the Middle East has traditionally been characterised by ethnic and religious diversity. The concept of mono-ethnic, mono-religious states, and the presumed domination of Islam (or, in Israel, the concept of a Jewish state) is only really a product of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

Even today, between the Samaritans, Mandaeans, Yazidis, and a whole host of simultaneously historically obscure and significant Christian groups (not least the Maronites), there are still hints of the historical ethnoreligious diversity of the Middle East.

Unfortunately, I doubt that even the hints will survive the 21st century; not outside of Lebanon and Egypt, anyway.

[Zorbae]

I have only heard of Mandaeans from Heirs to Forgotten Kingdoms, they certainly are interesting. As far as I know, they are the only remaining gnostic religon in the world, which is sad. I'd be keen to know about their relations with other religious communities in the area, especially what remains of the Christians and Jews of Iraq.

[Kauthar]

It is ironic that you belong to an ideology which purports to support the worst-treated in our society, yet shrink before the instrument of the torture of which (at a conservative estimate) millions in such a position were subjected to. I do not mean to be abrasive, but I suggest you show some respect.

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

Except for maybe two or three things he said, Nietzsche was a moron, so don't quote him.
Secondly, if you're implying that every Christian is bad in any way, you're right. But not everyone is as perfect as you it seems.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

Except for maybe two or three things he said, Nietzsche was a moron, so don't quote him.
Secondly, if you're implying that every Christian is bad in any way, you're right. But not everyone is as perfect as you it seems.

Not at all, actually. Though illness (and malicious editing by those who came after him) got the best of his later works.

[Grave_n_idle]

Fuck that. No institution bearing the symbol has ever earned my respect. Roughly in the words of Nietzsche: There was only one real Christian, and he died on the cross. That guy was kind of cool; the church his followers built? Not so much.

Except for maybe two or three things he said, Nietzsche was a moron, so don't quote him.

That seems like a bad rule. I'd imagine the standard is pretty low for humans in general, vis-a-vis the 'profound-thought to nonsense' ratio. We probably shouldn't have a rule that says you can't quote people that have said something dumb at some other point.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Except for maybe two or three things he said, Nietzsche was a moron, so don't quote him.

That seems like a bad rule. I'd imagine the standard is pretty low for humans in general, vis-a-vis the 'profound-thought to nonsense' ratio. We probably shouldn't have a rule that says you can't quote people that have said something dumb at some other point.

And considering half of this guy's post is essentially unintelligible, does that mean we should stop quoting him, as he's obviously a moron?

I'd probably say no, it means neither of those things. But I'm just a dirty existentialist, so what do I know.

[Schiltzberg]

Yes, the Bible is a great place to start! Maybe read one of the Gospels, and maybe back it up with some Old Testiment, I would suggest Genesis and Exodus to someone new to the faith. Once you get the basic beliefs and doctrine down, check out some books about the lives of the Saints. Those books can be really amazing and inspirational. Also check out stories about modern day miracles, for example, read about Medjugorje. There are some really interesting things going on there. Fatima too. You would be amazed at how much Our Lady of Fatima predicted about the 20th century that came true. Read about modern day Saints like Padre Pio, Mother Teresa, and Pope John Paul II to help apply this stuff to your real life. The most important thing is to not get discouraged and to take it at your own pace!

Medjugorje is, at best, a pious fraud. The local ordinary's investigation rendered a verdict of constat de non supernaturalitate and the episcopal conference rendered a verdict of non constat de supernaturalitate. The seers were plainly fed lines by their Franciscan spiritual director(really, the virgin Mary appearing to condemn a relatively obscure papal bull only applicable in one tiny part of the world?) who, by the way, got laicized for sexual misconduct, heresy, and disobedience. The only statement from the vatican on the apparitions was that they were completely fabricated.

Actually, the Vatican is still considering the matter at the moment, and is expected to make an official final report this fall, which will be interesting to see. I believe that they have been collecting reports since the new Pope was elected in 2013, because that was something that he was interested in. My thoughts are that they have not made it legitimate yet, because it is still happening. There is no denying that there are miracles taking place there, as I know several people who have been there and have seen the miracles, including my grandma, who is the most honest woman in the world. My grandma said that she saw the sun spinning, and that the rosary she was praying turned to gold.