Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:What about my description of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and your insistence on Tradition is wrong?
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:Transubstantiation:
Transubstantiation is the teaching that during the Mass, at the consecration in the Lord's Supper (Communion), the elements of the Eucharist, bread and wine, are transformed into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are no longer bread and wine but only retain their appearance of bread and wine.
Real Presence
≠ Transubstantiation
Only the Catholic Church officially believes in Transubstantiation. The other ancient Churches (including the Orthodox Church) believe in the Real Presence, but not in Transubstantiation. The Real Presence simply means that the Eucharist actually
does something, that it is a vehicle through which we receive God's Grace, that it
really matters whether you partake of it or not. The Eucharist is the Sacrament through which we receive communion with God, and it is the most important act for a Christian to participate in.
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:The point was that you have no proof that these traditions existed since ancient times, and I provided examples of more modern traditions (celebration of Easter and Christmas on those days they are currently celebrated) as examples of traditions that are new, and whose history we know relatively well, but which we celebrate anyways.
There is proof that they existed since at least the
second century. By what standard does this not count as "ancient"?
You are quibbling over the question of whether the Orthodox/Catholic traditions were started by the very first Christians themselves, or by the generation of their grandchildren (because they
certainly existed by the time of the grandchildren of the first Christians).
So if we have to choose between:
(a) Traditions that have existed for at least 1900 years, but may not have existed for the full 2000 years of Christianity;
OR
(b) Your own speculations about what Christianity
may have been like during those first few decades when these traditions may not have existed.
...then how is there any contest at all between these options? How can anyone in their right mind pick (b) over (a), just on the off chance that for a few short decades Christianity was somehow totally different from what it became just a couple of generations later?
Nationes Pii Redivivi wrote:The Eucharist does not make sense and is only tentatively supported by scripture.
I hope you realize that by the time the canon of Scripture was set, there already existed an Apostolic Church with weekly celebrations of the Eucharist on Sundays, an all-male priesthood, a clear distinction between laity and ordained clergy, annual celebrations of the Resurrection of Christ on Pascha/Easter, and even, in some places, celebrations of Christmas (yes, Christmas is slightly older than the final version of the New Testament canon).
Arguing that Orthodox/Catholic traditions dating back to the 2nd and 3rd centuries are "unbiblical" is like arguing that J.K. Rowling is wrong to claim that Dumbledore is gay, because this was never mentioned in the Harry Potter books.
The Apostolic Church, as it existed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, was the authority that compiled the New Testament in the first place. Sure, you can argue that traditions originating in the 4th century or later are "unbiblical" (however bone-headed that argument may be), but to argue that traditions
originating in the 3rd century or earlier are "unbiblical" means literally disagreeing with the author of a book about the intended meaning of this book.