The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Constantinopolis]

I more meant He in terms of its periodical designation.

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I more meant He in terms of its periodical designation.

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

Hence why I said He. H isn't the problem

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I more meant He in terms of its periodical designation.

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

Yea, and billions is a preeeeeetty long time.

I'd be surprised if humans haven't evolved into completely different species by then.

[Herskerstad]

In regards to JW theology and their takes on the anointed ones and the great crowd?

Try me.

So what do they legitimately believe happens to everyone outside of that specified number?

Well, it's best to summarize to a degree as the JW differences with biblical Christianity has a few glaring differences. Key words being few and glaring with a great deal of theology embedded into them which sometimes confuses the language. Anyhow, it's late so I'll give it my best shot.

Essentially that their hope is an earthly rather than an heavenly one which is a bit of a play on words. I've always wondered a bit why the anointed ones in Brooklyn did not increase in numbers given how simple it would be given their process while it was still ongoing, but theirs is the more or less 'ironclad' salvation and one that they'd define as a heavenly hope. They will in their theology while not given particular credence on earth be one in which they, alongside with Christ who is one of them, shepherd the flock. Who's also one of the 144000 who'll be in heaven. That's something to point out also. It's not so much a rank as it is a declared state. It's also a duty which is tough words coming from JW's which might explain some of the former. While 99,9% of JW you will meet today is part of the great herd 'who's hope is earthly', if you stick around Brooklin you might still encounter a few who'll classify themselves as being of the anointed ones.

However, the JW does not believe that man has a spiritual nature. That we do not 'have' a soul' but that we 'are' a soul. However, resurrection for them is not resurrection as understood by the wast majority of Christians. According to them when we die, righteous or not so, it's a full-on soul sleep concept. Then Jehovah recreates them based on his perfect memory of who they were. If you've played the recent game SOMA then you kind of get an idea as to this concept, but that which rises in their place is more a replica than a person being brought back to life so to speak. Sure, it has a consciousness as you, but it won't be yours. This helps explain why the JW historically have been 'keen' on the rapture so to speak. For those whom are spared in that will not die and achieve their rank so to speak. Though, it should be said with caution as the JW's theology has been in somewhat of a flux in recent decades. Now more is being chalked up to the state of mystery and death not being the end, meaning that they rely on 'hope' even in the face of death. And while they have not departed entirely from their understanding of the soul, if you look very closely on how they sometimes phrase resurrection and life after death it will very rarely tie in directly personal which is intentional.

And based on this, those whom are resurrected 'in their terminology' will be those whom God judges as righteous. Those judged not to be so will not be resurrected at all. Those who die on the apocalypse will be dead forever. Now, the wast majority in this case falls in the crowd of those whom will be risen and will be given something of a thousand year trial, to which if they mess up once, well, do your best lightning-zap motion. Though one can also simply opt out during this trial period. There will also be an end trial at the end of this which no one knows what will be, but if that's passed then they will have eternal security. Forming the new government on earth ruled by Christ and his anointed ones as an eternal king. They say it will be the best administration that has been known, i've only ever heard it described as sort of a perfect worship picnic. So I guess one can take from that what one wills.

[The Wolven League]

I more meant He in terms of its periodical designation.

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

If we haven't developed interstellar space travel and colonization by then, then humanity gets reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllly dumb somewhere in the near future.

[Conscentia]

According to Revelation, the devil is locked up in a cage for 1,000 years, and then he escapes and St. Michael finishes him off.

Yes, that's what it says. I just skipped the interim 1000 year step.
After that point, the people continue living forever.

This post chains reminds me of the Freer Logion...
According to the Freer Logion (an extra bit found in one really old copy of the Gospel of Mark):

"And they excused themselves, saying, "This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or: does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now" - thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, "The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more in order to inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.""

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Washingtonianus

[Constantinopolis]

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

Hence why I said He. H isn't the problem

To be fair, the amount of time we have left is incomprehensibly long. It's some 15-20 times longer than the time that has elapsed since the extinction of the dinosaurs. It's longer than the time that the continents of Earth have existed in any kind of recognizable form. It's far longer than flowers have existed, or land animals. It's longer than the time that has passed since vertebrates first evolved.

1 billion years ago, the land surface of Earth was a barren desert, life existed only in the oceans (and only in the form of bizarre creatures that would look utterly alien to us), you couldn't recognize the Earth from space because the continents looked completely different, and the atmosphere contained far too little oxygen to be breathable.

Thus, the fact that the Sun is going to bake the Earth in another 1-2 billion years is quite literally the last thing we should worry about. Everything else we can worry about is going to happen far, far sooner.

[Galloism]

So what do they legitimately believe happens to everyone outside of that specified number?

Well, it's best to summarize to a degree as the JW differences with biblical Christianity has a few glaring differences. Key words being few and glaring with a great deal of theology embedded into them which sometimes confuses the language. Anyhow, it's late so I'll give it my best shot.

Essentially that their hope is an earthly rather than an heavenly one which is a bit of a play on words. I've always wondered a bit why the anointed ones in Brooklyn did not increase in numbers given how simple it would be given their process while it was still ongoing, but theirs is the more or less 'ironclad' salvation and one that they'd define as a heavenly hope. They will in their theology while not given particular credence on earth be one in which they, alongside with Christ who is one of them, shepherd the flock. Who's also one of the 144000 who'll be in heaven. That's something to point out also. It's not so much a rank as it is a declared state. It's also a duty which is tough words coming from JW's which might explain some of the former. While 99,9% of JW you will meet today is part of the great herd 'who's hope is earthly', if you stick around Brooklin you might still encounter a few who'll classify themselves as being of the anointed ones.

However, the JW does not believe that man has a spiritual nature. That we do not 'have' a soul' but that we 'are' a soul. However, resurrection for them is not resurrection as understood by the wast majority of Christians. According to them when we die, righteous or not so, it's a full-on soul sleep concept. Then Jehovah recreates them based on his perfect memory of who they were. (1)If you've played the recent game SOMA then you kind of get an idea as to this concept, but that which rises in their place is more a replica than a person being brought back to life so to speak. Sure, it has a consciousness as you, but it won't be yours.(1) (2)This helps explain why the JW historically have been 'keen' on the rapture so to speak.(2) For those whom are spared in that will not die and achieve their rank so to speak. Though, it should be said with caution as the JW's theology has been in somewhat of a flux in recent decades. Now more is being chalked up to the state of mystery and death not being the end, meaning that they rely on 'hope' even in the face of death. And while they have not departed entirely from their understanding of the soul, (3)if you look very closely on how they sometimes phrase resurrection and life after death it will very rarely tie in directly personal which is intentional.(3)

And based on this, those whom are resurrected 'in their terminology' will be those whom God judges as righteous. (4) Those judged not to be so will not be resurrected at all.(4) Those who die on the apocalypse will be dead forever. (5)Now, the wast majority in this case falls in the crowd of those whom will be risen and will be given something of a thousand year trial, to which if they mess up once, well, do your best lightning-zap motion. (5) Though one can also simply opt out during this trial period. There will also be an end trial at the end of this which no one knows what will be, but if that's passed then they will have eternal security. Forming the new government on earth ruled by Christ and his anointed ones as an eternal king. They say it will be the best administration that has been known, i've only ever heard it described as sort of a perfect worship picnic. So I guess one can take from that what one wills.

You have an overall principle right, but you have a few glaring errors and a few opinions that may or may not match up with reality. I'm going to specify those. For convenience, I have added numbers at the beginning and end of statements I am going to address.

1) This is actually not true per JW faith. The consciousness is transferred or recreated, but it IS you, not a copy of you.

2) What do you mean "keen" on the rapture?

3) What do you mean by "rarely tie in directly personal which is intentional"?

4) This is false. They believe in the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. They even talk about an education work for the unrighteous to bring them to a state of righteousness.

5) You won't find one publication which says one screw up during the 1000 year reign results in a "zap". In fact, they specifically state that humanity will be "gradually raised" to perfection during this time period, which seems to indicate mistakes will still be made until the very end (or near the very end).

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Hence why I said He. H isn't the problem

To be fair, the amount of time we have left is incomprehensibly long. It's some 15-20 times longer than the time that has elapsed since the extinction of the dinosaurs. It's longer than the time that the continents of Earth have existed in any kind of recognizable form. It's far longer than flowers have existed, or land animals. It's longer than the time that has passed since vertebrates first evolved.

Thus, the fact that the Sun is going to bake the Earth in 1-2 billion years is quite literally the last thing we should worry about. Everything else we can worry about is going to happen far, far sooner.

Yeah but "The end is here". Sounds a lot better than "The end is coming eventually"

[Tarsonis Survivors]

There is more H than He up there right now, and there always will be, but you are of course right than the accumulation of He in the nucleus of our local star will pose a problem for the continued existence of the Earth.

Long story short, in a few billion years the Earth will become uninhabitable due to the Sun transitioning into its red giant phase and evaporating the oceans away. If Humanity is to survive, we're going to have to move somewhere else.

If we haven't developed interstellar space travel and colonization by then, then humanity gets reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllly dumb somewhere in the near future.

Idiocracy is real.

[Constantinopolis]

You know, it strikes me that the Earth one billion years ago was such an utterly different planet in every way, that if you were somehow transported to it (with a breathing mask, of course, because the atmosphere was unbreathable), it would look like a totally alien world, populated by alien sea creatures and not much else. There would be no way to recognize that you were on Earth... except for one thing.

Look up at night, and see the Moon. The Moon would be the only thing that looked the same (although much larger, since it was closer).

[The Wolven League]

You know, it strikes me that the Earth one billion years ago was such an utterly different planet in every way, that if you were somehow transported to it (with a breathing mask, of course, because the atmosphere was unbreathable), it would look like a totally alien world, populated by alien sea creatures and not much else. There would be no way to recognize that you were on Earth... except for one thing.

Look up at night, and see the Moon. The Moon would be the only thing that looked the same (although much larger, since it was closer).

What if the moon was destroyed somehow?

[Constantinopolis]

You know, it strikes me that the Earth one billion years ago was such an utterly different planet in every way, that if you were somehow transported to it (with a breathing mask, of course, because the atmosphere was unbreathable), it would look like a totally alien world, populated by alien sea creatures and not much else. There would be no way to recognize that you were on Earth... except for one thing.

Look up at night, and see the Moon. The Moon would be the only thing that looked the same (although much larger, since it was closer).

What if the moon was destroyed somehow?

I was talking about one billion years in the past, not one billion years in the future.

[The Wolven League]

If we haven't developed interstellar space travel and colonization by then, then humanity gets reeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllly dumb somewhere in the near future.

Idiocracy is real.

...what?

[The Wolven League]

What if the moon was destroyed somehow?

I was talking about one billion years in the past, not one billion years in the future.

...silly me

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Idiocracy is real.

...what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

[Diopolis]

You know, it strikes me that the Earth one billion years ago was such an utterly different planet in every way, that if you were somehow transported to it (with a breathing mask, of course, because the atmosphere was unbreathable), it would look like a totally alien world, populated by alien sea creatures and not much else. There would be no way to recognize that you were on Earth... except for one thing.

Look up at night, and see the Moon. The Moon would be the only thing that looked the same (although much larger, since it was closer).

Technically, if you captured a sea creature and had some actual knowledge of biology, you could probably figure out it's Earth.

[Ovybia]

Hello all,
I just found this interesting topic. I am a pro-life Catholic not afraid to be politically incorrect (as my signature suggests ).

I also love to discuss science.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Hello all,
I just found this interesting topic. I am a pro-life Catholic not afraid to be politically incorrect (as my signature suggests ).

I also love to discuss science.

And we needed to know this... why? Do you want a medal? A rebate coupon?

[Gim]

Hello all,
I just found this interesting topic. I am a pro-life Catholic not afraid to be politically incorrect (as my signature suggests ).

I also love to discuss science.

Well, welcome to CDT!

[Ovybia]

Hello all,
I just found this interesting topic. I am a pro-life Catholic not afraid to be politically incorrect (as my signature suggests ).

I also love to discuss science.

And we needed to know this... why? Do you want a medal? A rebate coupon?

Well, I was hoping to join some of your discussions if that's ok with you all. I just thought I'd introduce myself. So here I am

[Soldati Senza Confini]

And we needed to know this... why? Do you want a medal? A rebate coupon?

Well, I was hoping to join some of your discussions if that's ok with you all. I just thought I'd introduce myself. So here I am

That's fine. I am just messing with you

Welcome to the CDT. I hope you enjoy your stay.

[Ovybia]

Well, I was hoping to join some of your discussions if that's ok with you all. I just thought I'd introduce myself. So here I am

That's fine. I am just messing with you

Welcome to the CDT. I hope you enjoy your stay.

Thanks! So, what do people here think about evolution? Personally, I think evolution did occur except God had to supernaturally act to create man, he wasn't just conceived from an ape, because man has intellectual knowledge which requires a nonphysical part that none of the animals have or are able to give.

[The Archregimancy]

The Byzantines ask for some help in Anatolia.

Pope calls for a massive military expedition in the Levant, calls them Crusades, sparks two centuries of pointless fighting to found fragile feudal states in the Levant that had zero chance of survival.

Crusaders were mostly selfish and in it for the money, frequently sacking cities regardless of their religion and engaging in brutal oppression of non-Christians, which was likely caused by a good deal of them being ex-criminals looking to redeem themselves. The Crusaders constantly fought amongst themselves over land and loot.

"Overall plan"? Perhaps. "Overall plan that was actually enforced after it started"? Hell no.

The general call is a bit hard to estimate. While the well known sermon of Clermont did have certainly an appeal which extended beyond a pragmatic summons of well trained noble knights, given the absolute mess which was the Children's crusade it is unlikely that what he had in mind was the near migration it turned into.

I think you've confused the Peasant's Crusade and the Children's Crusade.

The Peasant's Crusade was a footnote to the First Crusade led by Peter the Hermit, and ending with the massacre of the Battle of Civetot in 1096 AD.

The Children's Crusade is a possibly not entirely historical event involving the recruitment of children to fight in a Crusade, only for most of them to be sold into slavery in North Africa; traditionally this is said to have taken place in 1212 AD.

[The Archregimancy]

Theodosius certainly can't; largely because he wouldn't be born until more than 30 years after the Edict of Milan.

Constantine, however, was certainly a Roman Emperor at the time of the Edict of Milan, and had been for some seven years. Just because the situation in the wake of Diocletian's abdication was confused doesn't mean that there weren't legitimately recognised emperors; his accession in 306, while irregular, was fully (albeit reluctantly) recognised by the senior Augustus Galerius, who personally sent Constantine the purple robes marking Imperial status.

Yeah, sorry, I thought he was trying to say that Theodosius was an Emperor at the time.

But the sole title of Emperor couldn't really be given to anyone, as there were several "Emperors".

You perhaps misunderstand the constitutional nature of the imperial office after the founding of the Tetrarchy in 293. From 293 onwards there's rarely a single emperor (and from 395 onwards never a single emperor until the West collapses), but there is a single Imperium (empire and imperial office).

So long as an emperor is recognised by the other emperors, and isn't considered a usurper, we can legitimately consider him to be an emperor, without any need for quotation marks. As Constantine was legitimised via his recognition by Galerius and the other legitimate Emperors, we can indeed consider him an emperor without any need for further qualification.