The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Schiltzberg]

WOOO!!! JESUS WITH A LIGHTSABER!!!

It is going down for real.

God the Father: Jesus, I am your father.
*Foresees suffering and death*
Jesus: NOOOOOOOOOO!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The current accepted canon has black, white, and yellow blades thanks to Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels.

And how does one make a black lightsaber pray tell?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darksaber_(lightsaber)

[Schiltzberg]

Nah guys, it's more like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWx6AZOY71U

[Conscentia]

This is not the Star Wars Discussion Thread. Would you kindly all move onto a relevant subject.

[Schiltzberg]

Seriously though, doesn't that Lion King scene seem like it was supposed to reflect the Agony in the Garden?

[Grand Calvert]

In the movies, there's blue, green, red, and purple.

In the EU (expanded universe, which is anything besides the movies) there are lightsabers of every color, like yellow, white, black, orange, etc.

Wow, "Anti: Non-Christian religions." Is that like on a personal level err?

Well as a Christian I'm obviously going to think that all the other religions are wrong.

[Ndaku]

Wow, "Anti: Non-Christian religions." Is that like on a personal level err?

Well as a Christian I'm obviously going to think that all the other religions are wrong.

Or you could simply respect what everybody believes in while spreading the Word of God.

[Grand Calvert]

Well as a Christian I'm obviously going to think that all the other religions are wrong.

Or you could simply respect what everybody believes in while spreading the Word of God.

I can respect people of different religions, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the religions themselves. For example, I don't respect Islam, as it tells lies about Jesus (i.e. He wasn't God, He wasn't crucified, He never rose from the dead. etc.) However, that doesn't mean I can't have a respectful discussion with someone who is a Muslim.

[Ndaku]

Or you could simply respect what everybody believes in while spreading the Word of God.

I can respect people of different religions, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the religions themselves. For example, I don't respect Islam, as it tells lies about Jesus (i.e. He wasn't God, He wasn't crucified, He never rose from the dead. etc.) However, that doesn't mean I can't have a respectful discussion with someone who is a Muslim.

I see now. Even though Islam doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God I respect it because those who follow Islam believe in God, and any religion believing and worshiping God earns automatic respect from me. So basically I favor the Abrahamic faiths: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

[Grand Calvert]

I can respect people of different religions, but that doesn't mean I have to respect the religions themselves. For example, I don't respect Islam, as it tells lies about Jesus (i.e. He wasn't God, He wasn't crucified, He never rose from the dead. etc.) However, that doesn't mean I can't have a respectful discussion with someone who is a Muslim.

I see now. Even though Islam doesn't basically recognize Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God I respect it because those who follow Islam believe in God, and any religion believing and worshiping God earns automatic respect from me. So basically I favor the Abrahamic faiths: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

Muslims don't really worship the same God we do. Christianity teaches a triune God, which Muslims would claim is wrong. Also, the greatest sin in Islam is shirk, which is like idolatry. Since Islam teaches that Jesus was merely a man (and not God) and we Christians worship Jesus, then according to Islam, we openly practice the greatest sin there is.

[Ndaku]

I see now. Even though Islam doesn't basically recognize Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God I respect it because those who follow Islam believe in God, and any religion believing and worshiping God earns automatic respect from me. So basically I favor the Abrahamic faiths: Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.

Muslims don't really worship the same God we do. Christianity teaches a triune God, which Muslims would claim is wrong. Also, the greatest sin in Islam is shirk, which is like idolatry. Since Islam teaches that Jesus was merely a man (and not God) and we Christians worship Jesus, then according to Islam, we openly practice the greatest sin there is.

It's not that they don't worship the same God we do, they just don't believe the connections between Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit like we Christians do. Allah is God, and they refer to Him as the one and only God, which really should be the main picture here. I have many, many friends who are Muslim and they agree with the fact, or probably theory, that Christians and Muslims believe and worship the same God.

[Grand Calvert]

Muslims don't really worship the same God we do. Christianity teaches a triune God, which Muslims would claim is wrong. Also, the greatest sin in Islam is shirk, which is like idolatry. Since Islam teaches that Jesus was merely a man (and not God) and we Christians worship Jesus, then according to Islam, we openly practice the greatest sin there is.

It's not that they don't worship the same God we do, they just don't believe the connections between Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit like we Christians do. Allah is God, and they refer to Him as the one and only God, which really should be the main picture here. I have many, many friends who are Muslim and they agree with the fact, or probably theory, that Christians and Muslims believe and worship the same God.

But again, the Muslim "God" isn't triune. Muslims would say that the idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. Christianity teaches that Jesus is fully man and fully God (hypostatic union). Islam teaches the Jesus was just fully man. If Christians and Muslims have this kind of disagreement, then it's impossible that they believe in the same God.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Soon, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi.

Hope you don't mind, but I just had to have that as a flag.

We only see that emerge once in a hundred years anyway.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Welcome back Diz, long time no see

[Constantinopolis]

But again, the Muslim "God" isn't triune. Muslims would say that the idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. Christianity teaches that Jesus is fully man and fully God (hypostatic union). Islam teaches the Jesus was just fully man.

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

But again, the Muslim "God" isn't triune. Muslims would say that the idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. Christianity teaches that Jesus is fully man and fully God (hypostatic union). Islam teaches the Jesus was just fully man.

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

Lets not go too far here.

The Jews don't even acknowledge Jesus existence (as in its irrelevant to our faith rather than Christ mythicism).

Of course then you have the issue with the Samaritans who think everyone, but them is wrong.

[Grand Calvert]

But again, the Muslim "God" isn't triune. Muslims would say that the idea of a Trinity is blasphemy. Christianity teaches that Jesus is fully man and fully God (hypostatic union). Islam teaches the Jesus was just fully man.

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

There's a difference; the Trinity wasn't fully revealed in the OT (though it was alluded to). A Jew in the OT would be following God truly, since he/she would have been following what God had revealed to Israel at the time. But now, since the Trinity has been fully revealed with the NT, it's different. Muslims and present-day Jews do not worship the same God we Christians do, since they would both deny the Trinity.

[Constantinopolis]

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

Lets not go too far here.

The Jews don't even acknowledge Jesus existence (as in its irrelevant to our faith rather than Christ mythicism).

Sure, but the relevant point was the fact that Muslims deny the divinity of Jesus and consider Him merely human, which is something that Jews also do.

The fact that Islam still sees Jesus as a prophet, while Judaism sees Him as just some guy, is another issue. In fact, with regard to the status of Jesus, Islam is closer to Christianity than Judaism, because Islam at least acknowledges Jesus as special in some way.

[Kainesia]

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

There's a difference; the Trinity wasn't fully revealed in the OT (though it was alluded to). A Jew in the OT would be following God truly, since he/she would have been following what God had revealed to Israel at the time. But now, since the Trinity has been fully revealed with the NT, it's different. Muslims and present-day Jews do not worship the same God we Christians do, since they would both deny the Trinity.

That still does not change the fact you worship the same god. You may have different beliefs about jesus and the trinity, but that in no way makes your religions completely separate. Muslims think jesus was a prophet, you think he was God/the son of God, and the jews don't think of jesus as anything. Allah, Jehova, Yahweh, they are all the same god called by different names.

[Constantinopolis]

Problem: Everything you just said about Muslims is equally true for Jews. You could literally replace the references to "Islam" and "Muslims" with references to "Judaism" and "Jews" in the above quote, and what you said would still hold true.

Yet we all agree that Jews and Christians worship the same God... We (Christians) simply believe that Jews are wrong about Him. And if the ways in which Jews are wrong about God are very similar to the ways in which Muslims are wrong about God (which they are - i.e. denying the Holy Trinity and the divinity of Christ), then doesn't that mean that Muslims also worship the same God, but are fundamentally wrong about Him?

There's a difference; the Trinity wasn't fully revealed in the OT (though it was alluded to). A Jew in the OT would be following God truly, since he/she would have been following what God had revealed to Israel at the time. But now, since the Trinity has been fully revealed with the NT, it's different. Muslims and present-day Jews do not worship the same God we Christians do, since they would both deny the Trinity.

Ok, so you draw a distinction between Old Testament Judaism and post-Jesus Judaism. That's fair, and in fact it's very accurate, because Second Temple Judaism was in many ways different from the Rabbinic Judaism that developed as the new expression of the Jewish faith in the centuries after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans - an event which happened just a few decades after Jesus.

Of course, Jews would object VERY strongly to the idea that Second Temple Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism worship different Gods, but I'm willing to consider it... hmmm...

[Grand Calvert]

There's a difference; the Trinity wasn't fully revealed in the OT (though it was alluded to). A Jew in the OT would be following God truly, since he/she would have been following what God had revealed to Israel at the time. But now, since the Trinity has been fully revealed with the NT, it's different. Muslims and present-day Jews do not worship the same God we Christians do, since they would both deny the Trinity.

That still does not change the fact you worship the same god. You may have different beliefs about jesus and the trinity, but that in no way makes your religions completely separate. Muslims think jesus was a prophet, you think he was God/the son of God, and the jews don't think of jesus as anything. Allah, Jehova, Yahweh, they are all the same god called by different names.

I just explained why they aren't. You can't have two completely definitions of God and then say they're the same thing.

[Kainesia]

That still does not change the fact you worship the same god. You may have different beliefs about jesus and the trinity, but that in no way makes your religions completely separate. Muslims think jesus was a prophet, you think he was God/the son of God, and the jews don't think of jesus as anything. Allah, Jehova, Yahweh, they are all the same god called by different names.

I just explained why they aren't. You can't have two completely definitions of God and then say they're the same thing.

I'm not saying all the belief systems are right at the same time, (in my opinion you are all totally wrong anyway) but to say that two religions believe in two different gods based on a slight variation in ideology is rather absurd.

There is also the fact that not all Christians believe in the trinity, some do and some don't. Would you consider them to be worshipping different gods?

[Grand Calvert]

I just explained why they aren't. You can't have two completely definitions of God and then say they're the same thing.

I'm not saying all the belief systems are right at the same time, (in my opinion you are all totally wrong anyway) but to say that two religions believe in two different gods based on a slight variation in ideology is rather absurd.

There is also the fact that not all Christians believe in the trinity...

a) The Trinity isn't a "slight change", it completely separates the Christian God from the Muslim one. Christians say that Jesus is God, which according to Islam is the greatest sin possible; shirk.
b) The Trinity is an essential Christian belief, so no, there aren't any non-trinitarian Christians. If I said I was a Muslim, but denied the five pillars of Islam, would you still think I'm a Muslim?

[Constantinopolis]

There is also the fact that not all Christians believe in the trinity, would you consider them to be worshipping different gods?

I would say that all present-day "Christians" who deny the Holy Trinity are so far removed from the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith that they certainly worship different gods.

However, I wouldn't necessarily say the same thing about the ancient Christian sects that denied the Holy Trinity. I mean, Arians were a lot closer to Trinitarian Christianity than present-day Mormons, for example.

[Kainesia]

I'm not saying all the belief systems are right at the same time, (in my opinion you are all totally wrong anyway) but to say that two religions believe in two different gods based on a slight variation in ideology is rather absurd.

There is also the fact that not all Christians believe in the trinity...

a) The Trinity isn't a "slight change", it completely separates the Christian God from the Muslim one. Christians say that Jesus is God, which according to Islam is the greatest sin possible; shirk.
b) The Trinity is an essential Christian belief, so no, there aren't any non-trinitarian Christians. If I said I was a Muslim, but denied the five pillars of Islam, would you still think I'm a Muslim?

The trinity is a slight change. You both believe in the singular, creator, all-powerful Abrahamic god. You both share various beliefs and mythologies, and both originate in the middle east. According to islam you are a blasphemer (probably), and according to you muslims have not been saved by jesus (probably). The fact remains that you both are worshipping the same god, but have gone through a divergence of religious ideology.

"The Trinity is an essential Christian belief" I go to college in a town where a Unitarian church has been operating since the 17th century. The same church that Charles Darwin attended in fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrewsbur ... ian_Church