The Christian Discussion Thread VI

[Nioya]

I always wanna post on here, but I don't know what to post about.

[The Flutterlands]

I always wanna post on here, but I don't know what to post about.

Well, you posted.

Anything you want to ask or something?

[Diopolis]

I always wanna post on here, but I don't know what to post about.

Well, are you a Christian? If so, what kind?

[Gim]

I always wanna post on here, but I don't know what to post about.

Share your Christian thoughts and questions with us!

[Constantinopolis]

*votes in pole*
*realizes he is the only Methodist*

Well, this poll is still new. By the time the Christian Discussion Thread V was closed, there were 33 Methodists who had voted in the poll - representing 4% of all votes.

...which reminds me, wouldn't it be a good idea to have a link to the previous CDT in the opening post of this one?

[Narland]

*votes in pole*
*realizes he is the only Methodist*

Well, this poll is still new. By the time the Christian Discussion Thread V was closed, there were 33 Methodists who had voted in the poll - representing 4% of all votes.

...which reminds me, wouldn't it be a good idea to have a link to the previous CDT in the opening post of this one?

One of my favorite lightbulb jokes is: How many Methodists does it take to change a light bulb?

That question is undetermined. Regardless of the state of your bulb you are loved. There will be a special "Bulbs of Change" Lesson this Sunday before the Main Service. Come to find out more! (There will also be a potluck after the Main Service--names ending in A-F please bring Main Dish; G-L Side Dish, M-R Refreshments, and S-Z Desserts--If you are new or are a guest, please bring only your appetite.)

[Schiltzberg]

That is true. Being that I live in the Western Hemisphere, where Catholicism is extremely more dominant than Orthodoxy, I am Catholic and I have been taught the Catholic side of it. All of my life I have seen Catholicism and Orthodoxy as basically exactly the same thing, which is obviously not entirely true, but like I said in a previous post, we are so similar in faith that it is kind of silly to quarrel over our minor issues. We both believe in a merciful God, and it is not as if Jesus is going to be like, "You're going to hell because you did/didn't believe in the authority of the Pope." I am wondering where you live, because if you live in a place where Orthodoxy is more common than Catholicism, then you would basically be Orthodox for the same reason that I am Catholic. Obviously if you aren't, then you are the opposite of that.

I currently live in the UK, and though I've lived in six countries on four continents, I've never lived in a traditionally Orthodox country in my life - though I am married to a Moscow Patriarchate archpriest's granddaughter.

So you might want to leave your preconceptions at home.

As to the rest of your post, there are few things I find more tiresome than an adherent of the Patriarch of Rome Catholicsplaining to me why we're not nearly as different as I think we are. I freely concede the point on "We both believe in a merciful God, and it is not as if Jesus is going to be like, "You're going to hell because you did/didn't believe in the authority of the Pope"", but no doubt you could say much the same thing to a Seventh Day Adventist; otherwise you might want to consider the possibility that one of the reasons I'm Orthodox is because I have, consciously and with forethought, rejected Catholic teaching on a whole range of important theological and historical issues, of which Papal supremacy is but one factor, and not even the most important.

I have utmost respect for that, and I am happy for you that you did what you feel is right. I have always thought that converts to a religion are 99% of the time more faithful than those who have been a part of that religion their whole life, because the converts had to strongly believe, and take time to convert to that faith.

Regarding each other, I think that we both need to accept this teaching:

38 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw someone driving out demons in your name, and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow us.” 39 Jesus replied, “Do not prevent him. There is no one who performs a mighty deed in my name who can at the same time speak ill of me. 40 For whoever is not against us is for us. 41 Anyone who gives you a cup of water to drink because you belong to Christ, amen, I say to you, will surely not lose his reward. (Mark 9:38-41)

Sure we are different, but we are both for Jesus, and we have the Sacraments too, which is what Jesus really came to give us.

[The Alexanderians]

I always wanna post on here, but I don't know what to post about.

Let it come to you, we'll discuss a lot of things

[Constantinopolis]

When the Schism first happened, how big was the Orthodox half compared to the Catholic half? Was the Catholic Church always way bigger than the Orthodox Church, or was the Orthodox Church more prominent back before the Ottoman conquests?

Arch already answered this question very well, but I'd like to add to his answer. The big difference between Catholic and Orthodox numbers today is overwhelmingly due to Catholic expansion and missionary work in Latin America, Africa and Asia from the 16th century onward. Neither the spread of Islam in formerly-Orthodox lands in the Middle East, nor the rise of Protestantism in formerly-Catholic lands in Europe, made much of a difference by comparison.

Think of it this way: Even if the lands that Orthodox Christianity lost to Islam were still 100% Orthodox Christian today, their total population only amounts to 220 million people (Turkey + Syria + Lebanon + Israel/Palestine + Jordan + Egypt + Libya). That would only raise the Orthodox population to about 450 - 550 million overall. Still only about half of the current global Catholic population.

On the other hand, if the Catholic Church was still limited to western Europe and north-west Africa, then even if the Protestant Reformation never happened (and even if Islam never spread into formerly-Catholic north-west Africa), the total Catholic population today would only be... about 550 million. To be more exact, if you add together the Catholic and Protestant populations in Europe (i.e. assume the Reformation never happened), and then add to them the populations of Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (i.e. Islam never happened), then the number you get is precisely 545 million.

So, if you count the present-day populations of ancient Catholic lands and ancient Orthodox lands, they turn out to be about equal. It's what happened outside of Europe and the Middle East that ultimately made all the difference.

[Constantinopolis]

Greetings from an Orthodox Christian

I'm sorry I didn't reply to this before... hello and welcome! Feel free to jump right into the discussion, we're all friendly here!

Well, most of the time, anyway. As long as we're not dealing with heresy.

I'm not sure it is as easy as that. I'm by no means an expert on Roman-Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, but I think there are a couple of differences between western and eastern Christianity where Catholicism and Protestantism fall on one side as western Christianity and Orthodoxy falls on the other side as eastern Christianity. A church father like Augustine has had a tremendous amount of influence on how both Protestants and Roman-Catholics think about grace and salvation and so forth. Same thing goes for Anselm of Canterbury and his view of substitutionary atonement.

You're more or less spot on.

To many prominent Orthodox theologians, most Protestant denominations are simply outgrowths of Catholicism whose underlying theological assumptions derive from the extent to which they - or there forebears - agree or disagree with Catholic doctrine. This is particularly true with Augustinian theology - broadly conceived - which had almost no traction within Eastern Christianity. In the other direction, figures like Origen and Gregory Palamas have had significant impacts on Eastern theology that most of Western Christianity only engaged with superficially for most of its history, if at all.

These quick posts are oversimplifications, of course, but there's much in your basic argument that Orthodox Christians would recognise and agree with.

Yes, but these differences between Eastern and Western Christian thought are rather difficult to define and explain. They are certainly not differences of doctrine or dogma. They are differences of... emphasis? Outlook? Paradigm? Worldview?

How do we talk about differences that aren't so much about the things we believe, but rather about the kinds of questions we ask?

Whereas, under the influence of Augustine and Anselm of Canterbury, in the West salvation is commonly thought of in terms of guilt and forgiveness, I think - and correct me if I am wrong - this line of thought is emphasized much less in Orthodoxy, where they think about salvation more in terms of theosis. Though western Christianity later in the Reformation split up amongst other things about a disagreement about grace, free will, good works etc. they still think about salvation in the same terms of guilt, forgiveness, debt, atonement etc.; you could say Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, at least in this issue, ask the same questions regarding the relation between grace, predestination, free will, good works etc., but answer some of them differently, where Orthodoxy, to my knowledge, isn't concerned very much with these questions in the first place.

Indeed. But, see above. This isn't really an issue of doctrine, per se. In fact, every time I have attempted to bring up this very topic in debates with Catholics in previous Christian Discussion Threads, the answers from them have been along the lines of "you're just re-stating the same things we believe, but in different words".

[The Alexanderians]

Greetings from an Orthodox Christian

I'm sorry I didn't reply to this before... hello and welcome! Feel free to jump right into the discussion, we're all friendly here!

Well, most of the time, anyway. As long as we're not dealing with heresy.

Did someone say:

[Constantinopolis]

I'm sorry I didn't reply to this before... hello and welcome! Feel free to jump right into the discussion, we're all friendly here!

Well, most of the time, anyway. As long as we're not dealing with heresy.

Did someone say:

Sisters of Battle > Space Marines

There. I said it.

[The Alexanderians]

Did someone say:

(Image)

Sisters of Battle > Space Marines

There. I said it.

It's my signature image anyway

[Gim]

Sisters of Battle > Space Marines

There. I said it.

It's my signature image anyway

Yes, yes, Licky. Heresy is heresy.

[Hakons]

That question is undetermined. Regardless of the state of your bulb you are loved. There will be a special "Bulbs of Change" Lesson this Sunday before the Main Service. Come to find out more! (There will also be a potluck after the Main Service--names ending in A-F please bring Main Dish; G-L Side Dish, M-R Refreshments, and S-Z Desserts--If you are new or are a guest, please bring only your appetite.)

It's amazing how true that is, although people are not assigned to bring certain foods to meals.

Also, Methodists only have communion once per month. This tradition came when there were low numbers of pastors in the Midwest. They would travel around in a 'circuit' so everyone in the area could attend a service and have communion.

[Nioya]

I feel like I'm praying wrongly. How should I pray?

And I have failed to love others as Christ did. What should I do?

[Herskerstad]

And I have failed to love others as Christ did. What should I do?

I cannot give advice on how a human can love beyond measure as Christ can, but you can die to self so that Christ may live more through you.

[Conscentia]

And I have failed to love others as Christ did. What should I do?

I cannot give advice on how a human can love beyond measure as Christ can, but you can die to self so that Christ may live more through you.

What's that supposed to mean?

[Grave_n_idle]

I feel like I'm praying wrongly. How should I pray?

And I have failed to love others as Christ did. What should I do?

Scripturally, prayer is easy.

Pray for specific things (whether giving thanks, or needing help) in concise words (Matthew 6:7-9). Pray for your goals and achievements to be in line with God's will (John 15:7). Pray in peace, and pray for peace (1 Timothy 2:8). Pray for understanding (James1:5) and to be understood (Romans 8:26-7). Pray for healing and forgiveness, for yourself and others (James 5:13-6). Pray sincerely and when in need (Hebrews 4:16). Pray privately (Matthew 6:6).

Scripturally, your days should be marked by constant small prayers (1 Thessalonians 5:17), seeking assurance and giving thanks (Phlippians 4:6).

So, biblically - a healthy prayer life is occasional 'closeted' prayer (what many think of as prayer, in fact) supplementing a consistent communication of small prayers that is a constant theme of your life.

Very few Christians actually manage to pray in a manner consistent with the scripture, so don't feel like you're failing where everyone else succeeds.

[Herskerstad]

I cannot give advice on how a human can love beyond measure as Christ can, but you can die to self so that Christ may live more through you.

What's that supposed to mean?

Mark 8:34-35 (NIV) Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

That very dread and red text is supposed to mean that the goal of the Christian is to give ones life to Christ. To seek what Christ wants for someone rather than what they want for themselves. To live under his teachings, and if need be, suffer for it in multitudes of ways. To fight the good fight and if it is God's will to give ones life for Christ whom will through such a person do wonderful things.

It means not that one is to seek martyrdom at the nearest spear tip, but it does mean that one is to surrender oneself to Christ entirely. People will still fail and stumble and not always do right, but our commitment to our Lord is to be one which if it comes between denying Christ and living or affirming Christ and dying, will always choose the latter. While few will have the honour and to which we can be thankful, we are still to know that our life is to be centred around God despite our many imperfections and opinions.

[Ithqington]

It's my signature image anyway

Yes, yes, Licky. Heresy is heresy.

Or Sin is Sin!

[Kainesia]

*votes in pole*
*realizes he is the only Methodist*

Well, this poll is still new. By the time the Christian Discussion Thread V was closed, there were 33 Methodists who had voted in the poll - representing 4% of all votes.

...which reminds me, wouldn't it be a good idea to have a link to the previous CDT in the opening post of this one?

Well, if anyone feels the thread is moving slowly, you could always tell me what Methodists actually believe. My knowledge of Methodism is that there is a church next door to a nice Indian restaurant near me.

[Luminesa]

I feel like I'm praying wrongly. How should I pray?

And I have failed to love others as Christ did. What should I do?

Scripturally, prayer is easy.

Pray for specific things (whether giving thanks, or needing help) in concise words (Matthew 6:7-9). Pray for your goals and achievements to be in line with God's will (John 15:7). Pray in peace, and pray for peace (1 Timothy 2:8). Pray for understanding (James1:5) and to be understood (Romans 8:26-7). Pray for healing and forgiveness, for yourself and others (James 5:13-6). Pray sincerely and when in need (Hebrews 4:16). Pray privately (Matthew 6:6).

Scripturally, your days should be marked by constant small prayers (1 Thessalonians 5:17), seeking assurance and giving thanks (Phlippians 4:6).

So, biblically - a healthy prayer life is occasional 'closeted' prayer (what many think of as prayer, in fact) supplementing a consistent communication of small prayers that is a constant theme of your life.

Very few Christians actually manage to pray in a manner consistent with the scripture, so don't feel like you're failing where everyone else succeeds.

I feel like I do most of this throughout the day, just not as consistently as I'd like to. :/

[Gim]

Yes, yes, Licky. Heresy is heresy.

Or Sin is Sin!

Or evil is evil, although some might not believe so.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

When the Schism first happened, how big was the Orthodox half compared to the Catholic half? Was the Catholic Church always way bigger than the Orthodox Church, or was the Orthodox Church more prominent back before the Ottoman conquests?

Arch already answered this question very well, but I'd like to add to his answer. The big difference between Catholic and Orthodox numbers today is overwhelmingly due to Catholic expansion and missionary work in Latin America, Africa and Asia from the 16th century onward. Neither the spread of Islam in formerly-Orthodox lands in the Middle East, nor the rise of Protestantism in formerly-Catholic lands in Europe, made much of a difference by comparison.

Think of it this way: Even if the lands that Orthodox Christianity lost to Islam were still 100% Orthodox Christian today, their total population only amounts to 220 million people (Turkey + Syria + Lebanon + Israel/Palestine + Jordan + Egypt + Libya). That would only raise the Orthodox population to about 450 - 550 million overall. Still only about half of the current global Catholic population.

On the other hand, if the Catholic Church was still limited to western Europe and north-west Africa, then even if the Protestant Reformation never happened (and even if Islam never spread into formerly-Catholic north-west Africa), the total Catholic population today would only be... about 550 million. To be more exact, if you add together the Catholic and Protestant populations in Europe (i.e. assume the Reformation never happened), and then add to them the populations of Tunisia, Algeria, and Morocco (i.e. Islam never happened), then the number you get is precisely 545 million.

So, if you count the present-day populations of ancient Catholic lands and ancient Orthodox lands, they turn out to be about equal. It's what happened outside of Europe and the Middle East that ultimately made all the difference.

I'd failed to account for colonialism. Interesting, one can only wonder what things would be like if the Byzantine Empire had survived and began to colonize the Americas.