English Prison System sends Transgender Woman to Male Prison

[Vassenor]

Pretty neat victim-blaming.

Better than blaming everyone else. Saying that I am implicit in the murder of people I have never met by other people I have never met by not condoning wholeheartedly and entirely their lifestyle (for lack of a better word?) isn't exactly a statement that would win me over.

Technically speaking, "trans panic" isn't wholesale murder.

Take that up with Benxboro, they explicitly stated 'murderers'.

Nobody claimed that the totality of transphobes want transgender people murdered. Benxboro spoke in terms of enabling.

And how, exactly, does disdain for this 'lifestyle' enable such murder?

Because it's a symptom of the same attitude that is exhibited by those responsible for said violence.

[The Alexanderians]

How prevalent is prison rape in England?

Does the rate really matter?
England is locking a woman up with men who haven't seen a woman (in some cases) in years. That can't end well. Not to mention the violent types in those prisons, many of whom are likely transphobic. Locking her up there is tantamount to murder.

A lot of prison inmate dont care too much on gender, that being said a woman would probably be a red letter target regardless.

[Geilinor]

How prevalent is prison rape in England?

Does the rate really matter?
England is locking a woman up with men who haven't seen a woman (in some cases) in years. That can't end well. Not to mention the violent types in those prisons, many of whom are likely transphobic. Locking her up there is tantamount to murder.

It's possible that nothing will happen but what's more important is that she's recognized as a woman.

[Ostroeuropa]

Does the rate really matter?
England is locking a woman up with men who haven't seen a woman (in some cases) in years. That can't end well. Not to mention the violent types in those prisons, many of whom are likely transphobic. Locking her up there is tantamount to murder.

It's possible that nothing will happen but what's more important is that she's recognized as a woman.

This.
Prison desegregation should also be discussed, but the primary issue in this incident is the state refusing to recognize someones legitimate identity.

[Nocturnalis]

Because it's a symptom of the same attitude that is exhibited by those responsible for said violence.

A symptom usually means fairly little; multiple diseases share similar, if not identical, symptoms.
My disease is extreme misanthropy

[Liriena]

lifestyle (for lack of a better word?)

There is a better word. It's gender.

And how, exactly, does disdain for this 'lifestyle' enable such murder?

You really can't see the connection between disdainful rhetoric towards a specific and violence against that same specific group? Do you think transgender people would face the same amount of violence if transphobic rhetoric was more frowned upon by society?

[Liriena]

My disease is extreme misanthropy

Edgy.

[Ostroeuropa]

Does the rate really matter?
England is locking a woman up with men who haven't seen a woman (in some cases) in years. That can't end well. Not to mention the violent types in those prisons, many of whom are likely transphobic. Locking her up there is tantamount to murder.

A lot of prison inmate dont care too much on gender, that being said a woman would probably be a red letter target regardless.

I'm not convinced.
I think that while it's possible some nefarious types might try, you're also going to see the general male protectiveness kick in and prisoners don't like sex criminals.
I think prisons could be desegregated and it would probably reduce incidents of prison rape, because it would mean that status and courting begin to take influence on the population. I think it might well act as a civilizing influence in general. The opinion the opposite sex has of you could regulate behaviors.

That, and the guards are likely to keep an eye out in this specific case.

All that said, it's possible that this transwoman won't be treated like a woman in mens jail would be, and the protective tendencies won't manifest due to transphobia.

[The UCOA]

Lets make it easy and build a prison for transgender prisoners

[Stellonia]

I would like to re-iterate that segregation is conducted according to sex, not gender.

I mean the reactions

Those who are against transgender individuals being seen as anything other than the gender they identify as could be seen as enablers of all the trans panic murderers.

What?

IIRC, deliberately misgendering someone is against forums rules.
I'd read through the rules just to make sure.
It is at least frowned upon.

It's flaming if it's a person on NS.

Unless this person is on NS, then I don't think it counts

I fail to see how "misgendering" a person constitutes flaming.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Welp that sucks

[Fartsniffage]

A lot of prison inmate dont care too much on gender, that being said a woman would probably be a red letter target regardless.

I'm not convinced.
I think that while it's possible some nefarious types might try, you're also going to see the general male protectiveness kick in and prisoners don't like sex criminals.
I think prisons could be desegregated and it would probably reduce incidents of prison rape, because it would mean that status and courting begin to take influence on the population. I think it might well act as a civilizing influence in general. The opinion the opposite sex has of you could regulate behaviors.

That, and the guards are likely to keep an eye out in this specific case.

All that said, it's possible that this transwoman won't be treated like a woman in mens jail would be, and the protective tendencies won't manifest due to transphobia.

Hang on....aren't you deadly opposed to social behaviour being dictated by the opinions of the opposite sex?

[New confederate ramenia]

A lot of prison inmate dont care too much on gender, that being said a woman would probably be a red letter target regardless.

I'm not convinced.
I think that while it's possible some nefarious types might try, you're also going to see the general male protectiveness kick in and prisoners don't like sex criminals.
I think prisons could be desegregated and it would probably reduce incidents of prison rape, because it would mean that status and courting begin to take influence on the population. I think it might well act as a civilizing influence in general. The opinion the opposite sex has of you could regulate behaviors.

That, and the guards are likely to keep an eye out in this specific case.

All that said, it's possible that this transwoman won't be treated like a woman in mens jail would be, and the protective tendencies won't manifest due to transphobia.

In a prison, rape could be much easier than courting and protectiveness. People will generally choose whatever is easier, and in desegregation that could be rape.

[The Serbian Empire]

And then they wonder why people don't like them.

Not gonna claim many friends by saying anyone that doesn't like you wants to murder you. *shrug*

I am 90% certain that most people who do oppose this sort of thing wouldn't advocate wholesale murder. There are those that do, but they are the minority.

Technically speaking, "trans panic" isn't wholesale murder.

It's not premeditated murder but a heat of the moment type.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm not convinced.
I think that while it's possible some nefarious types might try, you're also going to see the general male protectiveness kick in and prisoners don't like sex criminals.
I think prisons could be desegregated and it would probably reduce incidents of prison rape, because it would mean that status and courting begin to take influence on the population. I think it might well act as a civilizing influence in general. The opinion the opposite sex has of you could regulate behaviors.

That, and the guards are likely to keep an eye out in this specific case.

All that said, it's possible that this transwoman won't be treated like a woman in mens jail would be, and the protective tendencies won't manifest due to transphobia.

Hang on....aren't you deadly opposed to social behaviour being dictated by the opinions of the opposite sex?

In general yes. But I think it's fine to acknowledge that if you want sex, their opinion of you is going to matter. I just think people should be themselves and damn the consequences.

I'm not convinced.
I think that while it's possible some nefarious types might try, you're also going to see the general male protectiveness kick in and prisoners don't like sex criminals.
I think prisons could be desegregated and it would probably reduce incidents of prison rape, because it would mean that status and courting begin to take influence on the population. I think it might well act as a civilizing influence in general. The opinion the opposite sex has of you could regulate behaviors.

That, and the guards are likely to keep an eye out in this specific case.

All that said, it's possible that this transwoman won't be treated like a woman in mens jail would be, and the protective tendencies won't manifest due to transphobia.

In a prison, rape could be much easier than courting and protectiveness. People will generally choose whatever is easier, and in desegregation that could be rape.

I disagree. I'm confident there would be self-regulation. Besides which, the reduced costs of no longer having segregation would allow more funding to be put into rehab and surveillance and such.

[Vassenor]

I fail to see how "misgendering" a person constitutes flaming.

Deliberate misgendering of another user is considered a warnable offence.

[Liriena]

I would like to re-iterate that segregation is conducted according to sex, not gender.

And your argument is...?

[East Catalina]

I would like to re-iterate that segregation is conducted according to sex, not gender.

Those who are against transgender individuals being seen as anything other than the gender they identify as could be seen as enablers of all the trans panic murderers.

What?

The denial of the identity of transgender individuals leads to every man who kills a transgender woman after banging her thinking that just because his partner was identified with the same gender/sex category as him when she was born, she lied to him about being a "man", ergo he was raped because now rape is not telling people about your genitalia before you bang 'em, and because he was raped he can kill his rapist, rite? Booyah, trans panic defense (really, just transposed gay panic defense)! Worked for the four [redacted] who killed Gwen Araujo, why not let it work for every fucker who does the same shit?

[Geilinor]

I would like to re-iterate that segregation is conducted according to sex, not gender.

You're still putting people in unnecessary danger.

[East Catalina]

Technically speaking, "trans panic" isn't wholesale murder.

It's not premeditated murder but a heat of the moment type.

It's an obtuse and subhuman heat of the moment.

I would like to re-iterate that segregation is conducted according to sex, not gender.

You're still putting people in unnecessary danger.

Obviously we can therapy away brain structure.

[East Catalina]

Those who are against transgender individuals being seen as anything other than the gender they identify as could be seen as enablers of all the trans panic murderers.

And then they wonder why people don't like them.

Not gonna claim many friends by saying anyone that doesn't like you wants to murder you. *shrug*

I am 90% certain that most people who do oppose this sort of thing wouldn't advocate wholesale murder. There are those that do, but they are the minority.

Oh, it's not an attempt to persuade transphobes to switch sides.
It's a statement, which I made.

[Hirota]

I've formed an opinion on this finally.

Lets set some obvious disclaimers first of all. Obviously, rape and violence are bad. I'm pretty sure almost everyone agrees nobody really deserves to be put into a situation where they are at risk of this, especially for what appears to be an assault charge. I don't know if she had previous - I suspect the answer is yes to have received jail time and placed in Cat B - but rape isn't something that should be suffered by anyone.

With that out of the way, consider this. There are a few things in this article that should be considered. The one part in particular is this talk of a gender recognition certificate - you can read more about it here. Why is there no mention of this in any articles? Does she not have one? This isn't particularly new. Shouldn't she have been aware of this at some point during her transition? We are told she's identified as a female for her whole adult life - she has had 10 years to fill in the form.

Maybe she couldn't afford it, and I understand there are issues with the existing process.

So, I don't know why the mainstream press are fixated on the passport - that is nothing to do with it. If she had this form, sure, she'd have to have a new passport to travel abroad (which is another cost) - but I'm guessing she probably hasn't been abroad since her passport still says male, and I suspect passport control would notice the differences!

I also don't know why it took this particular woman getting sent to jail for this to be a problem. Apparently there are an estimated 20 to 30 transgender inmates in UK prisons. Do they all have their paperwork in order? Are they at risk of being raped and the press doesn't care?

And lets not mention the fact that just because she now considers herself a woman does not mean she is any safer in a female prison. And lets not forget men are routinely raped in prison but we don't get petitions for them everytime one gets sentenced.

But, lets stay on topic, and let me speculate on what will happen. A gender recognition certificate will be filled out, it will get approved mysteriously quickly, and we will hear nothing more about it. Her MP is involved, he has some clout in this area.

[Val Halla]

I've formed an opinion on this finally.

Lets set some obvious disclaimers first of all. Obviously, rape and violence are bad. I'm pretty sure almost everyone agrees nobody really deserves to be put into a situation where they are at risk of this, especially for what appears to be an assault charge. I don't know if she had previous - I suspect the answer is yes to have received jail time and placed in Cat B - but rape isn't something that should be suffered by anyone.

With that out of the way, consider this. There are a few things in this article that should be considered. The one part in particular is this talk of a gender recognition certificate - you can read more about it here. Why is there no mention of this in any articles? Does she not have one? This isn't particularly new. Shouldn't she have been aware of this at some point during her transition? We are told she's identified as a female for her whole adult life - she has had 10 years to fill in the form.

Maybe she couldn't afford it, and I understand there are issues with the existing process.

So, I don't know why the mainstream press are fixated on the passport - that is nothing to do with it. If she had this form, sure, she'd have to have a new passport to travel abroad (which is another cost) - but I'm guessing she probably hasn't been abroad since her passport still says male, and I suspect passport control would notice the differences!

I also don't know why it took this particular woman getting sent to jail for this to be a problem. Apparently there are an estimated 20 to 30 transgender inmates in UK prisons. Do they all have their paperwork in order? Are they at risk of being raped and the press doesn't care?

And lets not mention the fact that just because she now considers herself a woman does not mean she is any safer in a female prison. And lets not forget men are routinely raped in prison but we don't get petitions for them everytime one gets sentenced.

But, lets stay on topic, and let me speculate on what will happen. A gender recognition certificate will be filled out, it will get approved mysteriously quickly, and we will hear nothing more about it. Her MP is involved, he has some clout in this area.

See this has potential for big reform

[Vassenor]

I get the feeling this is going to overshadow everything else at the meeting thing the Equalities Commission is having about Transgender rights, since it's a soft issue that MPs can use to make it seem like they care.

[Nocturnalis]

lifestyle (for lack of a better word?)

There is a better word. It's gender.

Transgenderism itself isn't a gender. Is it? I honestly don't even know any more, the whole thing is getting that ridiculous.

You really can't see the connection between disdainful rhetoric towards a specific group and violence against that same specific group? Do you think transgender people would face the same amount of violence if transphobic rhetoric was more frowned upon by society?

Active disdain, sure.
Passive disdain, no.

Me having disdain for a group, but otherwise not acting on it or espousing such opinions on a (relatively) large scale does not affect the rates of violence on said group (I seriously doubt stuff I've said here will contribute to crime rates worldwide), certainly not in places thousands of miles away. If it could, holy shit a lot of people would be dead. I'm not exactly inspiring violence with my intense indifference.

Newsflash, a good portion of people don't care. Are they suddenly responsible for murders they could not have realistically committed?

And tell me, how many murders against trans people are committed explicitly because of their gender? Explicitly because of anti-trans rhetoric?

Edgy.

Irritable, maybe. But neither misanthropy nor I are either a trend nor avant-garde.

Oh, it's not an attempt to persuade transphobes to switch sides.
It's a statement, which I made.

Eh, good for you. Still doesn't change the fact that trying to convince people through...less than stellar rhetoric like that doesn't really work out that well, usually.