Trump Doctrine: World better with Saddam, Gaddafi in power

[Ethel mermania]

Overall I would say I agree with Trump's statements in the OP. Dictators do suck, but at least they offer stability. And since we went to the trouble of toppling Saddam, a decade too late, we should have US oil firms controlling a large chunk of Iraqi oil. Name big chunk Iraq Texaco, or Philips, or so something like that.

Secular dictatorships are in the long run as stable as Enron stocks or a Bernie Madoff portfolio.

Worked pretty well in Singapore and south korea.

[Gauthier]

Secular dictatorships are in the long run as stable as Enron stocks or a Bernie Madoff portfolio.

Worked pretty well in Singapore and south korea.

Singapore has the backings of China, and South Korea relies on the U.S. to keep Kimmistan from crashing the party.

[Vaikneland]

I believe what he is saying that the world as a whole was better at the time they were in power, not because they were in power, just when they happened to be reigning.

[Ethel mermania]

Worked pretty well in Singapore and south korea.

Singapore has the backings of China, and South Korea relies on the U.S. to keep Kimmistan from crashing the party.

Neither means it's not viable, yugoslavia worked till tito died as well.

[Gauthier]

Singapore has the backings of China, and South Korea relies on the U.S. to keep Kimmistan from crashing the party.

Neither means it's not viable, yugoslavia worked till tito died as well.

With Soviet backing.

[Eastern Equestria]

Trump is just piggybacking on popular opinion. He doesn't know jack about foreign politics.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Yes and no, I think. In the short to medium term, things in Iraq and Libya were better off under Saddam and Gaddafi, but it's important to remember that the situations currently present in those nations didn't occur in a vacuum. The underlying problems that fomented those situations were present in Iraq and Libya already, merely hidden from view and/or suppressed. Given that these nations are largely artificial, with no esprit de corps or competence amongst the military, no national identity or patriotism amongst the populace, more loyalty to one's religious leaders and tribe than to the state, a high degree of separation along sectarian lines, and the instability inherent in dictatorships, I believe that these nations were steadily building up as powder kegs. Though they may not have exploded at the same time, and they may not have exploded in the same way, they never the less would still have exploded.

There is going to be some level of bloodletting in these colonial construct nations, likely for some time, regardless of what we or anyone else thinks or chooses to do. Eventually things will settle and they'll get better, but intervening directly is just going to exacerbate the situation, and likely turn more people against us.

[Alyakia]

Singapore has the backings of China, and South Korea relies on the U.S. to keep Kimmistan from crashing the party.

Neither means it's not viable, yugoslavia worked till tito died as well.

you realize that succession bs is one of the bigger points for democracy and against dictatorship and "it worked until the guy died" is a point against right

[Ethel mermania]

Neither means it's not viable, yugoslavia worked till tito died as well.

With Soviet backing.

Not at all, the soviets hated tito.

[Ethel mermania]

Neither means it's not viable, yugoslavia worked till tito died as well.

you realize that succession bs is one of the bigger points for democracy and against dictatorship and "it worked until the guy died" is a point against right

Singapore and korea would argue otherwise.. the people have to want to be westernized. In iraq, and libya, they do not.

Read the article in my signature. Your not going to like it, but it explains my position.

[Kvatchdom]

Much less people would be dead for certain.

[Xmara]

More proof that Trump is a complete nutcase.

If he gets elected on a Tuesday (I believe that's the day of the week the elections are), we'll be seeing WWIII by Friday that week.

[Rio Cana]

Whats next? Is Trump going to say the world would be better with Adolf Hitler still in power in Germany? It seems that Trump is just trying to say disgusting and crazy things at this point because he knows it gets him free publicity.

Speaking about the former German leader, there was an actor playing him in a movie released last year in Germany called "Look who's back". Seems the movie uses the reaction from real non-actors on seeing the former leader. It seems while filming on the streets only two people protested while most were excited and amused. The movie makers took this has bad sign when it comes to modern Germany. There was a book before a movie. It sold well in German.

On the film and the reaction it got - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ente ... 526209.cms

On the book - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Look_Who%27s_Back

[Gauthier]

More proof that Trump is a complete nutcase.

If he gets elected on a Tuesday (I believe that's the day of the week the elections are), we'll be seeing WWIII by Friday that week.

The Joker's quote can also accurately summarize Trump's presidential campaign.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

More proof that Trump is a complete nutcase.

If he gets elected on a Tuesday (I believe that's the day of the week the elections are), we'll be seeing WWIII by Friday that week.

The Joker's quote can also accurately summarize Trump's presidential campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lb8fWUUXeKM
They seem to have a plan to me.

[Xmara]

I think Buzzfeed even had a quiz about Trump: Can you tell if this quote was said by Trump or Hitler?

I'll see if I can find the link.

[Greed and Death]

America needs more Realpolitik.

Nah. Kissinger was a dum-dum-jerk-face. Realpolitik is so 1866.

The man who opened relations with China, Ended Vietnam, and negotiated a cease fire during the Yom kippur War was dumb ? Really ?

Your idealism has produced ISIS, only realpolitik can end it.

[Xmara]

Never mind it wasn't Buzzfeed. It was this site.

http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/Hair ... olf-hitler

Enjoy.

[Geilinor]

Trump is right about the Iraq War, but when it sounds like you want dictators, you've gone a bit too far.

[Sanctissima]

Well, for once, Trump said something half-sensible.

Iraq and Libya actually are worse than when Saddam and Gaddafi were in power.

Although he kind of lost me with the whole "we should have just taken their oil when we had the chance" nonsense.

[Barraco Barner]

People like your average Middle Eastern desert folk do not understand democracy. They NEED some vicious dictator ruling them with an iron fist to stay at peace. Once that dictator is gone, so will be the stability that his presence bought.

Arab society is a patriarchal, tribal one, the concept of nationhood still being new to them. Loyalty to one's family and clan is all that matters, loyalty to the nation being secondary, and generally only practiced when there's someone mean enough in power to make the consequences of disloyalty very detrimental to one's clan and family. It is basically a medieval society trying to live by modern rules. Unsurprisingly, in the absence of a strongman to keep things in order, sectarian violence, tribal feuds and what have you will take free rein.

Saddam and Gaddafi were just such strongmen. Asad too was such a strongman before the West emasculated him and his regime.

So in that respect, Trump is absolutely right - the world would be better with such dictators in power.

Cultural Chauvinism - Still a Thing in 2015!

Honestly this is the biggest straw argument I've heard in regards to the Middle East, and it's terribly disparaging. It reeks of the mindset of 'white man's burden'. Democracy is possible in the Middle East, but it's difficult to work in something as structurally complex as representative democracy when there's this much violence being perpetrated from within and without.

lolpls, any argument opposed to yours is a strawman.

Anyways, he is statistically correct.

[Kainesia]

Libya is an anarchic basket case. Iraq is now the home of ISIS.

Yes, I would say the world would be better with those bastards in power.

[Gauthier]

Libya is an anarchic basket case. Iraq is now the home of ISIS.

Yes, I would say the world would be better with those bastards in power.

Only for as long as resources were expended in keeping them propped up. And once they inevitably topple, the revolution's commitment to fundamentalist Islam is proportional to how much oppression the propped-up dictatorship inflicted on them.

[Hollorous]

Nah. Kissinger was a dum-dum-jerk-face. Realpolitik is so 1866.

The man who opened relations with China, Ended Vietnam, and negotiated a cease fire during the Yom kippur War was dumb ? Really ?

Your idealism has produced ISIS, only realpolitik can end it.

Notice that you didn't argue about Kissinger having the face of a jerk. Smart on you.

Kissinger didn't end Vietnam. The North Vietnamese did when they won the war. Also, Kissinger helped condemn Chile to Pinochet.

Idealism leads to problems, sure. So does "real politik", which usually just translates toward doing douchebag things for short-term expediency. Arguably the "real politik" of propping up murderous scumbags in post-Saddam Iraq contributed to ISIS as well.

At least idealism has some redeeming value. Real Politik is for lazy statesman and sociopaths. It just kicks the can down the road to later.

[Rusozak]

Gives a real glimce to Trump's foreign policy. Previous administrations supported dictators in secrecy. Not Trump. He's refined asshole and proud to show it off.