The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Wallenburg]

Depends on the woman actually.

I've met women who are subtle about the fact they want sex. I've also been with women who are very direct about the fact they want sex. It's part of how they grow up more than anything. Women from old-fashioned households are subtle, women who are more modern are more open.

But this is what causes problems with consent. The whole yes means yes thing means that the only acceptable form of consent is a straightforward yes. But if someone, man or woman, is more subtle about wanting sex and would balk at the question "would you like to have sex?" how can you ever meet the yes means yes definition of consent?

I'm not aware of anyone who would "balk" at someone asking for consent.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Depends on the woman actually.

I've met women who are subtle about the fact they want sex. I've also been with women who are very direct about the fact they want sex. It's part of how they grow up more than anything. Women from old-fashioned households are subtle, women who are more modern are more open.

But this is what causes problems with consent. The whole yes means yes thing means that the only acceptable form of consent is a straightforward yes. But if someone, man or woman, is more subtle about wanting sex and would balk at the question "would you like to have sex?" how can you ever meet the yes means yes definition of consent?

If you want to not run into such a problem then look for women who won't balk at the question and are open about their need for sex.

I like for women to be subtle because I like to play mental games constantly as well, so I have no problems dating a woman who is old-fashioned and subtle. Other men may have such an issue, and so a woman like that is not for them. For them, women who are open about their sexuality exist.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But this is what causes problems with consent. The whole yes means yes thing means that the only acceptable form of consent is a straightforward yes. But if someone, man or woman, is more subtle about wanting sex and would balk at the question "would you like to have sex?" how can you ever meet the yes means yes definition of consent?

I'm not aware of anyone who would "balk" at someone asking for consent.

Well, there are women who are old-fashioned who would literally tell you how inappropriate you are at asking them if they want sex instead of going with the flow because their expectations for sex and sexual relations are rather old-fashioned and they don't like it when men ask directly. Others will blush at the question and not answer it, which leaves you scratching your head. Others will straight up tell you "fuck yea" or "no", or "go fuck yourself".

But like I said, that depends on the woman, and women run the whole gamut of personality quirks.

[SUNTHREIT]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?

Uhmm... that would be cruel and unusual punishment, which would be unconstitutional depending on the jurisdiction.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

No, that would just make rapist make sure they silence their victims.

[SUNTHREIT]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?

Uhmm... that would be cruel and unusual punishment, which would be unconstitutional depending on the jurisdiction.

Nobody follows the constitution anyway- just look at George W. Bush and Obama's presidencies!
And what about outside of America? I doubt many countries have true constitutional bars on such a punishment.
Also, cruel and unusual is hard to define. There is nothing cruel and unusual about castration, it has been done for thousands of years even to innocent people like eunuchs and they have done fine.

[Costa Fierro]

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's appropriate.

Well that's a load of shit for a start.

Some men do not understand that a woman, even if she feels uncomfortable, will keep on going along just to get to where they need to be safe and sound, and they find that going along ensures their well being.

No, the whole "teach men not to rape" comes from this ingrained belief in Third Wave feminism at least that all men basically "aggressors" in some shape or form, in that we are inherently violent and lack self control. This same belief in the perpetual aggressor applies to women in the form of the perpetual "victim", in which women are continually the victims of male aggression and domination and thus men need to be taught not to act dominantly or aggressively.

What feminists define aggression is literally up for interpretation. Basic things like saying "hey, you look beautiful" can be interpreted as "sexual harassment" these days.

Sure, you can say it is her fault for going along, but if you want to be seen in high esteem by the woman you're pursuing it is in your best interests to show respect towards them. If you pursue a woman the onus is not on her to make you feel comfortable, it's yours.

It's a woman, not a fucking horse.

You say this as if this is not already how it works.

Because it isn't?

So it's representative because it fits your narrative. Got it.

If my narrative is reality, then yes, it fits my narrative.

But here's a revolutionary idea. If you say that those views are mainstream and not simply a vocal minority then why don't you prove it?

Because you still wouldn't believe me if I did? You'd just regurgitate what others have said about #NotAllFeminists.

[New Edom]

But this is what causes problems with consent. The whole yes means yes thing means that the only acceptable form of consent is a straightforward yes. But if someone, man or woman, is more subtle about wanting sex and would balk at the question "would you like to have sex?" how can you ever meet the yes means yes definition of consent?

If you want to not run into such a problem then look for women who won't balk at the question and are open about their need for sex.

I like for women to be subtle because I like to play mental games constantly, so I have no problems dating a woman who is old-fashioned and subtle. Other men may have such an issue, and so a woman like that is not for them. For them, women who are open about their sexuality exist.

I wish I was like you but I'm not. I probably never can be. I often feel deeply ashamed of the fact that I feel anxious around women, but prolonged abuse and neglect will do that for you. To me, a woman walking in front of me naked without context is horrifying. To me it would give a clear message that she doesn't care about my own right to consent. That feminists so often talk only of men who do this is understandable when you have men like Donald Trump around, but it's still not all that happens.

So Chestaan is right, it does undermine consent, and yet we constantly have people who insist that it doesn't, and that it's just a matter of personal taste. So in other words, Chessmistress is right: the onus is on men. All women have to do is be themselves while men have to protect them. Nothing has changed in that regard.

[SUNTHREIT]

What feminists define aggression is literally up for interpretation. Basic things like saying "hey, you look beautiful" can be interpreted as "sexual harassment" these days.

Only if you're unattractive.
And really, unattractive people should know their place. They are unattractive for genetic reasons, so society is better off if they do.
I have a younger sister, and if any short, balding, fat or ugly man called her beautiful they'd be in some trouble for making her feel uncomfortable.

[Wallenburg]

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's appropriate.

Well that's a load of shit for a start.

Slavery was legal.

Sure, you can say it is her fault for going along, but if you want to be seen in high esteem by the woman you're pursuing it is in your best interests to show respect towards them. If you pursue a woman the onus is not on her to make you feel comfortable, it's yours.

It's a woman, not a fucking horse.

Nothing they said suggested otherwise.

Because it isn't?

Really? How is it not?

If my narrative is reality, then yes, it fits my narrative.

Your narrative--including that women cannot empathize with men and vice versa--is so detached from reality that it hardly even makes sense as a fiction.

Because you still wouldn't believe me if I did? You'd just regurgitate what others have said about #NotAllFeminists.

I think it's because you have fuck-all with regard to actual proof, but that's just my personal theory.

[Wallenburg]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

This is sarcasm, right?

[Mattopilos]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

This is sarcasm, right?

Given his other comments, I am going to go with N.O.

[SUNTHREIT]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

This is sarcasm, right?

No, I think castration is an old-fashioned solution that can easily solve a modern epidemic (rape). I just wanted to bounce the idea off this thread.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

This is sarcasm, right?

I'm just pondering as to why he/she wrote woman as 'womyn'.

[Triggrious]

Please don't be like a disgusting ablest bigot, and respect other people's emotions and stuff. Some of use would like to have a safe time when on the internet and stuff. So the least people could do is put a trigger warning before saying certain, triggering stuff, and things, like right?
I don't understand how it's a hard thing to do like, can't you like just respect other people, and people who have like PTSD? I don't get why you people feel the need to act like so privileged.
Okay thanks, I'm just a bit like shaken and triggered, and stuff. So like I just want people to more inclusive and stuff. If you think I'm coming off as like rude or something, you're probably just like super privileged to not have to understand what it's like being triggered and having PTSD. Just be like a normal human and stuff, and like consider people's emotions, not too hard, right?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

If you want to not run into such a problem then look for women who won't balk at the question and are open about their need for sex.

I like for women to be subtle because I like to play mental games constantly, so I have no problems dating a woman who is old-fashioned and subtle. Other men may have such an issue, and so a woman like that is not for them. For them, women who are open about their sexuality exist.

I wish I was like you but I'm not. I probably never can be. I often feel deeply ashamed of the fact that I feel anxious around women, but prolonged abuse and neglect will do that for you. To me, a woman walking in front of me naked without context is horrifying. To me it would give a clear message that she doesn't care about my own right to consent. That feminists so often talk only of men who do this is understandable when you have men like Donald Trump around, but it's still not all that happens.

So Chestaan is right, it does undermine consent, and yet we constantly have people who insist that it doesn't, and that it's just a matter of personal taste. So in other words, Chessmistress is right: the onus is on men. All women have to do is be themselves while men have to protect them. Nothing has changed in that regard.

Believe me, you don't want to be like me. Unless you like to, instead of being anxious about women, live for the rest of your life with insecurities about other people, trust issues, and with the constant understanding that it will be difficult for a woman to stand your shit because you, by way of your mother abandoning you and then years later sleeping with your oldest brother, have developed a tendency to sabotage a relationship which often shows up when you're anxious about where you stand in a relationship and be constantly needing to be reminded that nothing bad is happening between your SO and someone else when that someone else happens to be of the opposite sex, which leads to hard, fast, and emotionally taxing relationships for both ends.

Chessmistress is right in one thing: if the man initiates pursuit of a woman, the onus is on the man. Women didn't ask us to be in a relationship with them to begin with, we wanted it if we pursue them, and so the onus is on us. If a woman pursues a man, then the onus changes from the man to the woman to make sure the man is comfortable with what's going on.

Let me rephrase that: the one who has to prove that they can handle a relationship with another person is the person who initiates pursuit, not the person who is being pursued. The person who initiates pursuit does so, or should do so with the understanding of themselves that they can handle it.

As for you feeling anxious and horrified around naked women because you feel it is disrespectful to you, maybe trying to understand casual sex and one night stands is not your forte (to be honest, one night stands are not my forte either), and more understanding how you can make a relationship with a woman work with your own handicaps. I understand you know a lot about feminism and feminist theory, but I frankly prefer not to deal with feminist theory because it gives me a headache trying to understand their model on human relations, and I go by what I hear and see people behaving like, which is not anything like what feminist theory portrays. Also, like I mentioned before, I am a believer of the notion that the times do not change, and have not changed at all from my dad's time to our time, just what behaviors are acceptable and which are not.

[Wallenburg]

I wish I was like you but I'm not. I probably never can be. I often feel deeply ashamed of the fact that I feel anxious around women, but prolonged abuse and neglect will do that for you. To me, a woman walking in front of me naked without context is horrifying. To me it would give a clear message that she doesn't care about my own right to consent. That feminists so often talk only of men who do this is understandable when you have men like Donald Trump around, but it's still not all that happens.

I am confused as to why you are comparing nudity to sexual assault.

This is sarcasm, right?

No, I think castration is an old-fashioned solution that can easily solve a modern epidemic (rape). I just wanted to bounce the idea off this thread.

Castration as a punishment, especially by the method you described, qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment, and would probably lead far more rapists to murder their victims.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

This is sarcasm, right?

No, I think castration is an old-fashioned solution that can easily solve a modern epidemic (rape). I just wanted to bounce the idea off this thread.

Are you advocating for the same punishment for the other sex?

[SUNTHREIT]

This is sarcasm, right?

I'm just pondering as to why he/she wrote woman as 'womyn'.

I did? Oh shit, must've been a typo.
Sorry, I have been talking to a female friend on skype who prefers I use that term for the past few hours. Freudian slip.

[SUNTHREIT]

No, I think castration is an old-fashioned solution that can easily solve a modern epidemic (rape). I just wanted to bounce the idea off this thread.

Are you advocating for the same punishment for the other sex?

I've never thought of this. It would be hard to find a female equivalent to castration. Maybe removing the labia and clitoris?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

I'm just pondering as to why he/she wrote woman as 'womyn'.

I did? Oh shit, must've been a typo.
Sorry, I have been talking to a female friend on skype who prefers I use that term for the past few hours. Freudian slip.

No problem.

[Triggrious]

(Trigger warning)

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Fuck this sexist pig! Women should have rights!

[Yumyumsuppertime]

[b]I think rapists should be castrated, not chemically but with a rusty knife.
Do all the right-minded feminist womyn and male allies agree with me or what?
I think that such a punishment would make rapists much more hesitant to rape than if they would just be given a jail sentence, and the psychological aspect of it helps men control their toxic masculinity.

*** Warned For Trolling And Advocating Violence. ***

[SUNTHREIT]

Castration as a punishment, especially by the method you described, qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment, and would probably lead far more rapists to murder their victims.

There is always the risk of getting caught via DNA testing though. Which, as technology advances, only gets more and more inevitable. And with the punishment for being caught castration, fewer will risk it.

Also, even if it is cruel and unusual, they're rapists. Is there anything objectively wrong with castrating a rapist?