The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Ireland, apparently. So third world.

lol

Not actually a joke.

[The Grene Knyght]

Nope. I'm arguing that women are oppressed by capitalism.

How? If I may be so blunt.

The working class of the entire world is oppressed by capitalism. Women within this class are disproportionately discriminated against. Thus, women are discriminated against by capitalism.

I mean, its a bit more complex than that, but you get the general gist of it...

[Alvecia]

How? If I may be so blunt.

The working class of the entire world is oppressed by capitalism. Women within this class are disproportionately discriminated against. Thus, women are discriminated against by capitalism.

I mean, its a bit more complex than that, but you get the general gist of it...

Men are within that class as well. It's a little sexist to only focus on the women dontcha think?

[Mattopilos]

You can always express the most individualism possible, which minimizes your oppression by definition.

Finding the right balance between the individual and society is a little more complicated than that.

Society is by definition a group of individuals. The problem is when people forget that.

[PaNTuXIa]

I agree. However, Grene is trying to argue that women are "oppressed" in first world nations. They're not.

Nope. I'm arguing that women are oppressed by capitalism. If you read what I've argued, you'll see that I've actually specified the third world in one of my arguments. I don't think I ever specified my argument overall as being specific to the first world.

How? If anything, capitalism promotes women, as they are allowed to sell their sex/beauty.

[Settrah]

How? If I may be so blunt.

The working class of the entire world is oppressed by capitalism. Women within this class are disproportionately discriminated against. Thus, women are discriminated against by capitalism.

I mean, its a bit more complex than that, but you get the general gist of it...

That's a long stretch to make that point. That's like saying the patriarchy oppresses women, but you also get women who are disabled, so the patriarchy oppresses disabled people. This is how the logic sounds.

A hates B, but B can potentially contain some C like all things even not B can contain C, so A hates C.

Also if your gripe is with Capitalism, your issue is class, not gender. The fact that lower class people can be female doesn't mean all class war is now a gender issue. And plus, it implies a bourgeoisie women is disadvantaged in comparison to a proletariat man. In which case, your issue is with the, patriarchy, not the bourgeoisie, and they're not the same thing.

[Balkenreich]

The working class of the entire world is oppressed by capitalism. Women within this class are disproportionately discriminated against. Thus, women are discriminated against by capitalism.

I mean, its a bit more complex than that, but you get the general gist of it...

That's a long stretch to make that point. That's like saying the patriarchy oppresses women, but you also get women who are disabled, so the patriarchy oppresses disabled people. This is how the logic sounds.

I mean, we also oppress men.

Which is odd sense we're a...you know. Patriarchy. I know i know, the last guy in charge was all "nah fam, we need to keep women down." But i was like "We need to oppress more people."

he lost his job.

[Settrah]

That's a long stretch to make that point. That's like saying the patriarchy oppresses women, but you also get women who are disabled, so the patriarchy oppresses disabled people. This is how the logic sounds.

I mean, we also oppress men.

Which is odd sense we're a...you know. Patriarchy. I know i know, the last guy in charge was all "nah fam, we need to keep women down." But i was like "We need to oppress more people."

he lost his job.

The really funny thing is, when people talk about the patriarchy they don't actually get what a patriarchy is, a society run by a father figure. But they paint it as a legion of fathers only out to hold women down and support men with super privilege. In a family set up, homosexual couples aside, how many fathers are there in a family set up? One. In larger set ups you'll get more possibly, but not A HEAP more. I mean you'll get other men in the family, but they're not the father (of that family anyway). You have grandsons, sons, cousins, brothers, uncles (who arguably could also be patriarchs), maybe even granddads who once held and maintained the father position, but right there at the time is just the one father figure. The other men? They're not all in a suit sipping brandy in a penthouse suite, twirling their moustaches, laughing about how inferior women are. They're the sons, lacking any influence, too afraid to stand up to their father, receiving just as much condescending remarks and discipline as their sister, only with the addition of having wave of feminists yelling at the boy that because they're male that they're part of the problem.

Like, the father doesn't give a shit if the children are male or female. Males still get a hard time in a patriarchy as the sisters and mums, because despite being male they're still not the father. Like you said, all people.

[Philjia]

Finding the right balance between the individual and society is a little more complicated than that.

Society is by definition a group of individuals. The problem is when people forget that.

Bentham worked this shit out in the 18th century.

[Chestaan]

How? If I may be so blunt.

The working class of the entire world is oppressed by capitalism. Women within this class are disproportionately discriminated against. Thus, women are discriminated against by capitalism.

I mean, its a bit more complex than that, but you get the general gist of it...

I have to disagree that women are oppressed more than men. I would argue that they are oppressed in different ways, but not moreso.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Society is by definition a group of individuals. The problem is when people forget that.

Bentham worked this shit out in the 18th century.

Bentham was also an utter fruit loop, but that's beside the point. Individuals produce society but they are historically and culturally located and the process of constant reproduction occurs within a particular existing social condition.

An analysis that focuses purely on the individual or on society is a bad analysis and those making that analysis should feel bad.

[Philjia]

Bentham worked this shit out in the 18th century.

Bentham was also an utter fruit loop.

His personal life was... unusual, especially the part where he had his corpse preserved and publicly displayed until the present day. The political philosophy was excellent though (Although I personally prefer Mill.)

[Imperial Union of America]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism

Modern feminism is quite influential on tumblr, twitter and youtube. I think we've seen their effects with Gamergate.

Really, i view feminism not as pro-woman, but anti-man. I don't believe that women necessarily earn less than men just because of discrimination. The idea of "Sex Object" and "Fat positivity" are absurd to me. We're all sex objects, sexual creatures.

Modern feminism also seems to oppose or reject the sexual nature of humanity. Modern feminists often say that we should believe rape victims without evidence, without due process. That everything in society favours men and disfavours women.

But of course, what about men's rights? What about domestic abuse of men? What about child custody? Child support payments?

Why is it women are allowed to terminate their pregnancy, but men cannot terminate their obligation to the child? What about male circumcision? The Draft?

Milo is a famous conservative, who has been a strong advocate against feminism. The Amazing Atheist, a popular Youtube content creator and on the opposite side of the spectrum, has made many videos on opposing modern day 'feminism'.

Infact, modern-day feminism has become so defined by the extremists as man-haters and so on, that only ~20-25% of American women identify as 'feminists', depending on the poll you look at.

That same poll has some shocking results;

When asked why they are not feminists, the most common response (40%) is that 'feminists are too extreme', followed by 'feminists are anti-men' (18%). 11% of non-feminists are not feminists because they believe men and women are not equal

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/c ... inism3.png

I consider myself a traditionalist personally; I believe that men and women are not equal -- not that one is superior or inferior to the other, just that we are different. I think women should have the same opportunities as men, i believe women are capable and intelligent.

But i believe in the traditional idea that a woman is naturally inclined to be the creator of life and the caretaker, that the man is supposed to be the provider. I believe that women do have a place in our country, a very, very important place. Creating new life, educating and raising the children, and taking care of the home. I believe that this is the role that society and culture should expect and encourage in the young men and women of our country.

This modern-day feminism is nothing but anti-man radicalism that reject human nature, rejects human sexuality and tries to promote non-traditional and fringe sexual identities and ideologies. Not to mention it ties a lot into political correctness, merely expressing your sexual desire in a woman is seen as a negative thing by some of these feminists. They describe small things as 'rape' which is absurd. They view women are superior and white cis-gender men as oppressive and subjugative.

[Senkaku]

You say they're less and less common, but only 25% of women themselves identify as feminist.

According to your poll, perhaps.

Infact, more women than men by a two-to-one margin see women as not equal to men.

You're making the mistake that not self-identifying as actively feminist means that someone must automatically share your archaic fetish for keeping women in the kitchen and popping out babies.

I don't think women having children and being good wives makes them less intelligent or capable than men. They are very important, what would America do without it's mothers? Without the love and affection only a mother can give?

No, but you think that's all women should be permitted or encouraged to do, and that all men should be encouraged to do is have and provide for a family. I hate to tell you, but it's not 1951 any more! Times have changed, so I'd suggest moving out of Nostalgiastan.

and in any case, children are better off with a man and woman raising them, married and loving.

*thread swiftly derails into gay marriage debate*

[New Edom]

3rd Wave feminism is a mess. It blends intersectionality, radical feminism, sex positivism, identity politics and a mess of other things. Who is a feminist, who leads it, who teaches it is all confused.

Take consent. Nearly all feminists agree on the issue of consent, but what about affirmative/enthusiastic consent? How should it be taught? Many feminist leaders insist that ti SHOULD be taught, but how, and by whom? It's a mess.

[Vassenor]

Are people assuming that tumblr is representative again?

And most of the accounts there are poes any way.

[Senkaku]

Are people assuming that tumblr is representative again?

Well I mean how else do you make the argument that the idea that women and men are equal is unreasonable and mean, except by misrepresenting the idea itself using a bunch of bullshit dredged out of one of the Internet's most cancerous places?

[New Edom]

Are people assuming that tumblr is representative again?

And most of the accounts there are poes any way.

He also mentioned youtube and twitter. Since celebrities, officials and public figures post trhere along with educators, those are hardly without influence. Feminism has advocates such as President Obama, Vice-President Biden, Prime Minister Trudeau, Emma Watson and other figures of importance who have openly insisted that people suppoert this ideological movement.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

But i believe in the traditional idea that a woman is naturally inclined to be the creator of life and the caretaker, that the man is supposed to be the provider. I believe that women do have a place in our country, a very, very important place. Creating new life, educating and raising the children, and taking care of the home. I believe that this is the role that society and culture should expect and encourage in the young men and women of our country.

This modern-day feminism is nothing but anti-man radicalism that reject human nature, rejects human sexuality and tries to promote non-traditional and fringe sexual identities and ideologies. Not to mention it ties a lot into political correctness, merely expressing your sexual desire in a woman is seen as a negative thing by some of these feminists. They describe small things as 'rape' which is absurd. They view women are superior and white cis-gender men as oppressive and subjugative.

I don't think women having children and being good wives makes them less intelligent or capable than men. They are very important, what would America do without it's mothers? Without the love and affection only a mother can give?

Not all women are good caretakers. And not all women want to have children and be good wives.

From personal experience, I can tell you some women are not fit to be mothers, and are not fit to care for another human being or give their hypothetical children "the love and affection only a mother can give".

Also "expressing sexual desire in a woman" has always been inappropriate in one way or another throughout the ages. What some feminists are saying is not new, in fact it is a conservative point of view. If you think you should be able to express your sexual desire in a woman, then good news! You might be a liberal in that respect. Those who are old-fashioned however tend to not disclose their sexual desire to a woman blatantly.

[Minzerland II]

Are people assuming that tumblr is representative again?

Well I mean how else do you make the argument that the idea that women and men are equal is unreasonable and mean, except by misrepresenting the idea itself using a bunch of bullshit dredged out of one of the Internet's most cancerous places?

Feminism isn't an idea.

[Imperial Union of America]

But i believe in the traditional idea that a woman is naturally inclined to be the creator of life and the caretaker, that the man is supposed to be the provider. I believe that women do have a place in our country, a very, very important place. Creating new life, educating and raising the children, and taking care of the home. I believe that this is the role that society and culture should expect and encourage in the young men and women of our country.

This modern-day feminism is nothing but anti-man radicalism that reject human nature, rejects human sexuality and tries to promote non-traditional and fringe sexual identities and ideologies. Not to mention it ties a lot into political correctness, merely expressing your sexual desire in a woman is seen as a negative thing by some of these feminists. They describe small things as 'rape' which is absurd. They view women are superior and white cis-gender men as oppressive and subjugative.

I don't think women having children and being good wives makes them less intelligent or capable than men. They are very important, what would America do without it's mothers? Without the love and affection only a mother can give?

Not all women are good caretakers. And not all women want to have children and be good wives.

From personal experience, I can tell you some women are not fit to be mothers, and are not fit to care for another human being or give their hypothetical children "the love and affection only a mother can give".

Also "expressing sexual desire in a woman" has always been inappropriate in one way or another throughout the ages. What some feminists are saying is not new, in fact it is a conservative point of view.

What is the appropriate way to show sexual interest, in your opinion? Out of curiosity.

Also, I agree. There are some fucked up women out there, and men, too. But we have to make generalizations in these matters, but of course, that's against the rules.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

What is the appropriate way to show sexual interest, in your opinion? Out of curiosity.

Also, I agree. There are some fucked up women out there, and men, too. But we have to make generalizations in these matters, but of course, that's against the rules.

Well, I am probably a lot more old fashioned than other people in that particular regard, but to be fair, I've found out that the appropriate way to show sexual interest is however the girl feels comfortable expressing herself about sex.

Some women like for you to be direct and go "hey, I know this may sound crazy, but you wanna fuck?" and some women take like for you to be more reserved and wait for them to be ready, meaning that if you talk like you would to the former girl they might plain out reject your advances from that point on and gently drop you. My best advice for anyone would be: do not generalize a woman, try go gauge how she likes to be treated, and express yourself accordingly. If a woman likes for people to be blunt to them, be blunt, if they like for you to be polite but also be subtle in your sexual desire, be subtle in your sexual desire.

Tailoring your approach makes people feel like they matter and they will be more receptive to whatever it is you have to say. Also, if a woman rejects you and says no, move on. Don't whine, don't act insulted. Just move on. Rejection is normal.

There is no single approach to it. Women are people, so they all have their own tastes when it comes to men approaching them. In particular, everyone loves to be listened to, and listening is important when either looking out to have sex, or just looking out to make friends or pursuing a woman for a relationship. Being a good listener will get you farther than trying to play a game.

[Costa Fierro]

Are people assuming that tumblr is representative again?

I don't see why it isn't, given the majority of mainstream feminists are radical in their ideas and views.

[New Edom]

What is the appropriate way to show sexual interest, in your opinion? Out of curiosity.

Also, I agree. There are some fucked up women out there, and men, too. But we have to make generalizations in these matters, but of course, that's against the rules.

Well, I am probably a lot more old fashioned than other people in that particular regard, but to be fair, I've found out that the appropriate way to show sexual interest is however the girl feels comfortable expressing herself about sex.

Some women like for you to be direct and go "hey, I know this may sound crazy, but you wanna fuck?" and some women take like for you to be more reserved and wait for them to be ready, meaning that if you talk like you would to the former girl they might plain out reject your advances from that point on and gently drop you. My best advice for anyone would be: do not generalize a woman, try go gauge how they like to be treated, and express yourself accordingly. If a woman likes for people to be blunt to them, be blunt, if they like for you to be polite but also be subtle in your sexual desire, be subtle in your sexual desire.

There is no single approach to it. Women are people, so they all have their own tastes when it comes to men approaching them. In particular, everyone loves to be listened to, and listening is important when either looking out to have sex, or just looking out to make friends or pursuing a woman for a relationship.

That would be great if this was 1975, but it's not. Today there are all kinds of people bringing up not merely what is socially appropriate but what is legally true. Some people are attacked openly for even expressing attraction to women of a general type. So women having their own tastes as to how they want to be approached is not really helpful. This is unfortunate because I suspect the average woman doesn't necessarily want things to be this way. I've tried to speak many times around here about how the push for affirmative consent creates confusion, but people who believe in the idea only hear the words and don't consider the application.

[Costa Fierro]

What is the appropriate way to show sexual interest, in your opinion? Out of curiosity.

Also, I agree. There are some fucked up women out there, and men, too. But we have to make generalizations in these matters, but of course, that's against the rules.

Well, I am probably a lot more old fashioned than other people in that particular regard, but to be fair, I've found out that the appropriate way to show sexual interest is however the girl feels comfortable expressing herself about sex.

Some women like for you to be direct and go "hey, I know this may sound crazy, but you wanna fuck?" and some women take like for you to be more reserved and wait for them to be ready, meaning that if you talk like you would to the former girl they might plain out reject your advances from that point on and gently drop you. My best advice for anyone would be: do not generalize a woman, try go gauge how she likes to be treated, and express yourself accordingly. If a woman likes for people to be blunt to them, be blunt, if they like for you to be polite but also be subtle in your sexual desire, be subtle in your sexual desire.

Tailoring your approach makes people feel like they matter and they will be more receptive to whatever it is you have to say. Also, if a woman rejects you and says no, move on. Don't whine, don't act insulted. Just move on. Rejection is normal.

There is no single approach to it. Women are people, so they all have their own tastes when it comes to men approaching them. In particular, everyone loves to be listened to, and listening is important when either looking out to have sex, or just looking out to make friends or pursuing a woman for a relationship. Being a good listener will get you farther than trying to play a game.

And relationship "advice" is related to feminism how?