The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Swith Witherward]

It's really not misinformation when it's scientifically studied and verified. Did you read the source?

Alex is a rape victim. You got on the subject of DV. Your article supports male domestic violence victim claims (regarding hotlines) but is not specific to male victims of sexual assault. That's where the misinformation comes in. Not in your article, Gallo. In fact, your reply is accurate with regard to DV hotline issues.

While I have no answers regarding male DV victims call center treatment, and I have always acknowledged that we need to make drastic changes to address the fact that men can be and often are victims of DV. That said, Alex can rest assured that male SA victims do have a means to reach out on a national level with reputable SA victim groups instead of being mistreated on a local or state level by barking spiders.

This is a sad fact: you're one of exactly three feminists I've encountered online who responds with more than platituds about this sort of thing. I sent him private information including three links I found led to helpful resources, which I hope helped, along with explanations. He thanked me for that. But I appreciate you writing this.

I don't blame Gallo though. We often get really hostile responses. In fact I think for me personally and I suspect for him and others, it is what led us away from supporting feminism, this lack of sympathy and hostility.

I have a lot of respect for RAINN even where I disagree with them on some particular anlyses of issues or some data, but I generally rspect heir methods and approach. But this issue is controversial within feminism and it does need to be recognized as such.

I suspect most feminists that share my viewpoint on this subject usually don't bother speaking out online. We get tired of being lumped with the fuctards. We also realize that we can't solve anything by sitting on our asses and spouting our beliefs. Instead, most of us are active in our community to some degree. "Be the change you want to see."

If you get a really hostile response from anyone (feminist, MRA, civil rights supporter, whatever), don't feed that troll. Seriously, I sometimes watch this thread explode into bullshittery when all that's necessary is not giving the troublemaker any attention.

I don't think we should focus on the trolls that believe men can't be raped or abused. Instead, we need to focus on the fact that rape and abuse does happen, and that we need to establish ways for victims of both genders to cope with it, escape it, heal from it. By making the public more aware of it, we make the community better for men and women alike. It's a joint effort. Men can't do it alone. Women can't do it alone.

[The Alexanderians]

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

This isn't telling me anything I don't already know. I'm aware of the stats and facts Gallo. I wasn't trying to make myself look unique or be a special snowflake with it I was simply scared by a new blade on an old wound.

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

Fuck, no. That's the sort of misinformation that hinders male callers from reaching out. Gallo, damnit! You're basically saying, "Don't reach out for help. Typically, you'll reach an uncaring feminist." That mentality is what keeps men feeling abandoned with nowhere to turn.

Granted, you don't want to call a hotline set up specifically for women. Those aren't geared to help men. Yes, many of them are run by feminists but, if they're worth anything, they'll refer the male victim to the NSAH for sexual assault, or to a national domestic violence agency for DV.

RAINN's governing body, advisors, and other particulars are gender inclusive. It was founded by a man. Its focus is on preventing violence against people, not just against women. It supports male victims as well as female victims. It provides the National Sexual Assault Hotline number (which is not run by feminists) and a live chat.

We need more men volunteering.

Volunteers are essential to operating the National Sexual Assault Hotline, both online and over the phone.

You can volunteer to help survivors of sexual violence by lending your time and skills to a local sexual assault service provider in your area. Whether you’re answering calls to the National Sexual Assault Hotline or providing critical office support, you can make a big difference for survivors in your community.

You can also join a national team of volunteers who provide immediate support to those in need on the National Sexual Assault Online Hotline. To become a support specialist, volunteers go through an extensive training program that is currently offered in Washington, D.C. or NYC.

To learn more about becoming a rape crisis counselor, reach out to a local sexual assault provider in your area.

Finally, to any man who has been the victim of a sexual assault... you are not alone. You can find some information here. If you were abused or raped as a young person, 1in6 is a potent organization set up to help men recover. They provide a free and anonymous Online Online Peer Support Group which meets every Monday and Wednesday.

Followup to that:
The National Domestic Violence Hotline has "highly-trained advocates available 24/7 to talk confidentially with anyone experiencing domestic violence, seeking resources or information, or questioning unhealthy aspects of their relationship". This is one of the agencies we referred men and boys to, and we have not heard anything negative about their experiences with them. Those numbers are: 1-800-799-7233 and 1-800-787-3224 (TTY). If anyone does have a documented negative experience with them, please let me know. We'll cease to refer people there.

I'm more inclined to believe these hotlines' own behavior is what hinders people calling. It also doesn't help that the vast majority of them are set up for women. The ones I called at the time were a mix because I didn't know what to do and I at the time was more receptive of femmies so I figured if the generic ones weren't helpful I'll go to the feminist ones. They're all about equality of the sexes they should help right? Never thought I'd be the set up to a good joke but eh we all get a chance.

EDIT: Also why are people suddenly bringing this up again?

[New Edom]

It's really not misinformation when it's scientifically studied and verified. Did you read the source?

Alex is a rape victim. You got on the subject of DV. Your article supports male domestic violence victim claims (regarding hotlines) but is not specific to male victims of sexual assault. That's where the misinformation comes in. Not in your article, Gallo. In fact, your reply is accurate with regard to DV hotline issues.

While I have no answers regarding male DV victims call center treatment, and I have always acknowledged that we need to make drastic changes to address the fact that men can be and often are victims of DV. That said, Alex can rest assured that male SA victims do have a means to reach out on a national level with reputable SA victim groups instead of being mistreated on a local or state level by barking spiders.

This is a sad fact: you're one of exactly three feminists I've encountered online who responds with more than platituds about this sort of thing. I sent him private information including three links I found led to helpful resources, which I hope helped, along with explanations. He thanked me for that. But I appreciate you writing this.

I don't blame Gallo though. We often get really hostile responses. In fact I think for me personally and I suspect for him and others, it is what led us away from supporting feminism, this lack of sympathy and hostility.

I have a lot of respect for RAINN even where I disagree with them on some particular anlyses of issues or some data, but I generally rspect heir methods and approach. But this issue is controversial within feminism and it does need to be recognized as such.

I suspect most feminists that share my viewpoint on this subject usually don't bother speaking out online. We get tired of being lumped with the fuctards. We also realize that we can't solve anything by sitting on our asses and spouting our beliefs. Instead, most of us are active in our community to some degree. "Be the change you want to see."

If you get a really hostile response from anyone (feminist, MRA, civil rights supporter, whatever), don't feed that troll. Seriously, I sometimes watch this thread explode into bullshittery when all that's necessary is not giving the troublemaker any attention.

I don't think we should focus on the trolls that believe men can't be raped or abused. Instead, we need to focus on the fact that rape and abuse does happen, and that we need to establish ways for victims of both genders to cope with it, escape it, heal from it. By making the public more aware of it, we make the community better for men and women alike. It's a joint effort. Men can't do it alone. Women can't do it alone.

You know, I'm tired of you and others complaining when I raise the issues. You're not the majority, or if you are, it's a pretty damned silent one. The public conversation is almost entirely third wave patriarchy theory focused people who dismiss male issues or pigeon hole them. These are the people who get quoted by prime ministers and presidents, get commissions focusing on their issues in the UN, and yet people like you are the true feminists and we should just pretend there is no issue? At least acknowledge the actual problems that this creates and don't pretend that it's not an issue. Calling them trolls doesn't cut it.

Take that incident in Toronto, where people were gathered to talk about male suicide and issues and education--and are blocked from entering and have to have the police force their way in because a gang of feminists and socialists don't want the speaker--Warren Farrell--to be heard. We get told 'it's just protest, don't worry about it'. But that's just trolling? Don't tell me this sort of thing doesn't need to be fought.

Common ground? What common ground? Feminists allow people like Jessica Valenti to represent them and do nothing about it and allow Title IX to bully people at universities, and then insist that they be seen as moderates? To hell with that. Do a better job.

[Galloism]

It's really not misinformation when it's scientifically studied and verified. Did you read the source?

Alex is a rape victim. You got on the subject of DV. Your article supports male domestic violence victim claims (regarding hotlines) but is not specific to male victims of sexual assault. That's where the misinformation comes in. Not in your article, Gallo. In fact, your reply is accurate with regard to DV hotline issues.

While I have no answers regarding male DV victims call center treatment, and I have always acknowledged that we need to make drastic changes to address the fact that men can be and often are victims of DV. That said, Alex can rest assured that male SA victims do have a means to reach out on a national level with reputable SA victim groups instead of being mistreated on a local or state level by barking spiders.

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

[Swith Witherward]

You know, I'm tired of you and others complaining when I raise the issues. You're not the majority, or if you are, it's a pretty damned silent one. The public conversation is almost entirely third wave patriarchy theory focused people who dismiss male issues or pigeon hole them. These are the people who get quoted by prime ministers and presidents, get commissions focusing on their issues in the UN, and yet people like you are the true feminists and we should just pretend there is no issue? At least acknowledge the actual problems that this creates and don't pretend that it's not an issue. Calling them trolls doesn't cut it.

Take that incident in Toronto, where people were gathered to talk about male suicide and issues and education--and are blocked from entering and have to have the police force their way in because a gang of feminists and socialists don't want the speaker--Warren Farrell--to be heard. We get told 'it's just protest, don't worry about it'. But that's just trolling? Don't tell me this sort of thing doesn't need to be fought.

Common ground? What common ground? Feminists allow people like Jessica Valenti to represent them and do nothing about it and allow Title IX to bully people at universities, and then insist that they be seen as moderates? To hell with that. Do a better job.

I'm not complaining.

I'm also not a "true feminist". NO feminist is a "true feminist". If you look at my OP for this thread, you'll see a "more than 31 flavors" spoiler. Feminism is diverse ergo there is no one "true" approach. My flavor of feminism deals with empowering young people, especially girls, in math and sciences. I am true to that cause.

The radical feminist you mentioned (Toronto) is Chanty Binx. She doesn't represent mainstream feminism any more than Fred Phelps represents mainstream Christianity. She is a bitter little special snowflake. Her big mouth knocks back our movement as a whole. She needs to crawl back under the rock she came from. Had I been at that protest, I would have lost my temper and whacked her with a chair. I will not mourn her passing when she dies. In fact, Toronto is only six hours away. I might drive up to piss on her grave.

Do all blacks support Black Lives Matter? No. Does that make them less black or less supportive of civil rights issues or anti-discrimination policy? No. But BLM has a loud voice. Everyone assumes all blacks support BLM. Likewise, not all feminists agree with the bullshit going on on campuses. It angers me to no end when I see my male friends discriminated against. We didn't fight for equality for generations only to have some rad fem TA grade all male students lower. We didn't fight to have a voice only to watch leadership rob us of the right to vote on important feminist issues. As for Jessica Valenti... you seem to think the average woman has some sort of super power. We can instantly fly anywhere to personally take her down. You also forget that she represents one facet of feminism, not all of feminism. She doesn't speak for me nor does she represent me. Until you accept that, you'll labor under the misconception that she speaks for all feminists.

No, Edom, we pick our battles. I choose to contribute to young people rather than take on people half way across the country. My feminist approach is all about empowerment through knowledge. My enemy isn't patriarchy. My enemy is poverty, and gender role reinforcement whereby girls are told they are naturally "dumb at math" and boys are told they aren't any good unless they're good at [fill in the stereotype]. I am only one facet of modern feminism.

As for trolls? That comment is in relation to the people that troll these threads.

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

[The Alexanderians]

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

Certainly not to femmies. Those are usually "nope there's no male rapes EVR" and the feminists that oppose that first line of thought has a great counter argument of "...". Not a lto of the reasonable ones think there's any issue so they don't stick up for the rest. We need more that actually try to fix shit Like Christian Hoff Summers

[Greater Amerikan Reich]

As an anti feminist I believe that we don't need feminism in first world countries (America, Britain, etc.) Feminists need to start focusing on actual problems women face all over the world but mainly in third world countries

[Spartosa]

As an anti feminist I believe that we don't need feminism in first world countries (America, Britain, etc.) Feminists need to start focusing on actual problems women face all over the world but mainly in third world countries

If only that kind of common sense could be bought at the supermarket.

[Galloism]

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

You can largely thank feminists like Mary Koss for this.

Powerful feminists - of which Mary Koss is probably a key component - have deliberately manipulated the data to try and present that men are almost never raped by women, even though rape of men by women is the most common type of rape men suffer. Squirrely definitions have been used to prevent that from being recognized as rape.

If you drill down into the data and really analyze it, you can see that, although there might be a disparity, it is so small it's hard to detect even which direction it's in. However, people don't normally drill all the way down into the data - they take the summary information which says "hey, basically all women are raped by men, and all men are raped by men", unaware that this does not include men who are raped by women in the most common way men are raped by women.

RAINN employees are not immune to this data manipulation.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You know, I'm tired of you and others complaining when I raise the issues. You're not the majority, or if you are, it's a pretty damned silent one. The public conversation is almost entirely third wave patriarchy theory focused people who dismiss male issues or pigeon hole them. These are the people who get quoted by prime ministers and presidents, get commissions focusing on their issues in the UN, and yet people like you are the true feminists and we should just pretend there is no issue? At least acknowledge the actual problems that this creates and don't pretend that it's not an issue. Calling them trolls doesn't cut it.

Take that incident in Toronto, where people were gathered to talk about male suicide and issues and education--and are blocked from entering and have to have the police force their way in because a gang of feminists and socialists don't want the speaker--Warren Farrell--to be heard. We get told 'it's just protest, don't worry about it'. But that's just trolling? Don't tell me this sort of thing doesn't need to be fought.

Common ground? What common ground? Feminists allow people like Jessica Valenti to represent them and do nothing about it and allow Title IX to bully people at universities, and then insist that they be seen as moderates? To hell with that. Do a better job.

I'm not complaining.

I'm also not a "true feminist". NO feminist is a "true feminist". If you look at my OP for this thread, you'll see a "more than 31 flavors" spoiler. Feminism is diverse ergo there is no one "true" approach. My flavor of feminism deals with empowering young people, especially girls, in math and sciences. I am true to that cause.

The radical feminist you mentioned (Toronto) is Chanty Binx. She doesn't represent mainstream feminism any more than Fred Phelps represents mainstream Christianity. She is a bitter little special snowflake. Her big mouth knocks back our movement as a whole. She needs to crawl back under the rock she came from. Had I been at that protest, I would have lost my temper and whacked her with a chair. I will not mourn her passing when she dies. In fact, Toronto is only six hours away. I might drive up to piss on her grave.

Do all blacks support Black Lives Matter? No. Does that make them less black or less supportive of civil rights issues or anti-discrimination policy? No. But BLM has a loud voice. Everyone assumes all blacks support BLM. Likewise, not all feminists agree with the bullshit going on on campuses. It angers me to no end when I see my male friends discriminated against. We didn't fight for equality for generations only to have some rad fem TA grade all male students lower. We didn't fight to have a voice only to watch leadership rob us of the right to vote on important feminist issues. As for Jessica Valenti... you seem to think the average woman has some sort of super power. We can instantly fly anywhere to personally take her down. You also forget that she represents one facet of feminism, not all of feminism. She doesn't speak for me nor does she represent me. Until you accept that, you'll labor under the misconception that she speaks for all feminists.

No, Edom, we pick our battles. I choose to contribute to young people rather than take on people half way across the country. My feminist approach is all about empowerment through knowledge. My enemy isn't patriarchy. My enemy is poverty, and gender role reinforcement whereby girls are told they are naturally "dumb at math" and boys are told they aren't any good unless they're good at [fill in the stereotype]. I am only one facet of modern feminism.

As for trolls? That comment is in relation to the people that troll these threads.

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

As a feminist I cringe every time I see this because it is just turning the tables and victim blaming men when they're raped. I have seen testimony that these victims get mocked by the authorities, or turned away from these lines, or are referred to batterer's programs. It's sickening. Sickening that, as a movement that was supposed to seek equality, many feminists just turn a blind eye to victims just because they happen to be men. We can't, as a society now, ignore this. We cannot make these men invisible. We need to reach out and help.

[New Edom]

You know, I'm tired of you and others complaining when I raise the issues. You're not the majority, or if you are, it's a pretty damned silent one. The public conversation is almost entirely third wave patriarchy theory focused people who dismiss male issues or pigeon hole them. These are the people who get quoted by prime ministers and presidents, get commissions focusing on their issues in the UN, and yet people like you are the true feminists and we should just pretend there is no issue? At least acknowledge the actual problems that this creates and don't pretend that it's not an issue. Calling them trolls doesn't cut it.

Take that incident in Toronto, where people were gathered to talk about male suicide and issues and education--and are blocked from entering and have to have the police force their way in because a gang of feminists and socialists don't want the speaker--Warren Farrell--to be heard. We get told 'it's just protest, don't worry about it'. But that's just trolling? Don't tell me this sort of thing doesn't need to be fought.

Common ground? What common ground? Feminists allow people like Jessica Valenti to represent them and do nothing about it and allow Title IX to bully people at universities, and then insist that they be seen as moderates? To hell with that. Do a better job.

I'm not complaining.

I'm also not a "true feminist". NO feminist is a "true feminist". If you look at my OP for this thread, you'll see a "more than 31 flavors" spoiler. Feminism is diverse ergo there is no one "true" approach. My flavor of feminism deals with empowering young people, especially girls, in math and sciences. I am true to that cause.

The radical feminist you mentioned (Toronto) is Chanty Binx. She doesn't represent mainstream feminism any more than Fred Phelps represents mainstream Christianity. She is a bitter little special snowflake. Her big mouth knocks back our movement as a whole. She needs to crawl back under the rock she came from. Had I been at that protest, I would have lost my temper and whacked her with a chair. I will not mourn her passing when she dies. In fact, Toronto is only six hours away. I might drive up to piss on her grave.

Do all blacks support Black Lives Matter? No. Does that make them less black or less supportive of civil rights issues or anti-discrimination policy? No. But BLM has a loud voice. Everyone assumes all blacks support BLM. Likewise, not all feminists agree with the bullshit going on on campuses. It angers me to no end when I see my male friends discriminated against. We didn't fight for equality for generations only to have some rad fem TA grade all male students lower. We didn't fight to have a voice only to watch leadership rob us of the right to vote on important feminist issues. As for Jessica Valenti... you seem to think the average woman has some sort of super power. We can instantly fly anywhere to personally take her down. You also forget that she represents one facet of feminism, not all of feminism. She doesn't speak for me nor does she represent me. Until you accept that, you'll labor under the misconception that she speaks for all feminists.

No, Edom, we pick our battles. I choose to contribute to young people rather than take on people half way across the country. My feminist approach is all about empowerment through knowledge. My enemy isn't patriarchy. My enemy is poverty, and gender role reinforcement whereby girls are told they are naturally "dumb at math" and boys are told they aren't any good unless they're good at [fill in the stereotype]. I am only one facet of modern feminism.

As for trolls? That comment is in relation to the people that troll these threads.

Eh, maybe. I help men who are victims of rape and DV, primarily grown men who are victims of rape and DV.

Even from RAINN, the response is... mixed at best. If you're a child or teen calling you almost always get a good response, so I've been told by such. However, if you're a grown man you seem to often get met with skepticism.

Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

I think that your position is very fair. Chanty Binx is just one example, you see a lot of that stuff--Jessica Valenti and her co-authors of Yes Means Yes only telling one side of the stsory which==however valid is still only one side, Gloria Steinem and Emma Watson feeding the idea that no one can possibly have any beef with modern femnism, all these 'educational' websites that present only their side of feminism being the true one. it's like dealign with a religion where every denomination pretends the other doesn't exist or is insane. I very rarely encounter feminists who are broad minded, so I think my position on it is also very fair.

Which brings me to my real concern. All this started for me when I was trying to raise awareness for abused boys. I wanted to have public service announcements profile women as possible abusers alongside men, and have boys as well as girls be profiled as possible victims. I made it clear I would even settle for ten percent representation. However I got such mystification and rejection as a result of it that I began to question how well feminists generally were responding. At many universities I find that people who are talking about these issues are talking patriarchy theory in the sense that females are victims, males are perps. It's slightly better int he last year or so, but I see that as very recent changes.

There is one shelter and counseling center in my city for men and boys, one place where they can get counseling otherwise they're paying through the nose for it. Like many boys who tried to report their abuse, I found that I was instead accused of being an abuser.

I know that there are feminists who are strongly opposed to that and who want all victims to be treated equally, but I see this as a minority voice which I hope will get stronger, but in the meantime it is an uphill battle.

[New Edom]

I'm not complaining.

I'm also not a "true feminist". NO feminist is a "true feminist". If you look at my OP for this thread, you'll see a "more than 31 flavors" spoiler. Feminism is diverse ergo there is no one "true" approach. My flavor of feminism deals with empowering young people, especially girls, in math and sciences. I am true to that cause.

The radical feminist you mentioned (Toronto) is Chanty Binx. She doesn't represent mainstream feminism any more than Fred Phelps represents mainstream Christianity. She is a bitter little special snowflake. Her big mouth knocks back our movement as a whole. She needs to crawl back under the rock she came from. Had I been at that protest, I would have lost my temper and whacked her with a chair. I will not mourn her passing when she dies. In fact, Toronto is only six hours away. I might drive up to piss on her grave.

Do all blacks support Black Lives Matter? No. Does that make them less black or less supportive of civil rights issues or anti-discrimination policy? No. But BLM has a loud voice. Everyone assumes all blacks support BLM. Likewise, not all feminists agree with the bullshit going on on campuses. It angers me to no end when I see my male friends discriminated against. We didn't fight for equality for generations only to have some rad fem TA grade all male students lower. We didn't fight to have a voice only to watch leadership rob us of the right to vote on important feminist issues. As for Jessica Valenti... you seem to think the average woman has some sort of super power. We can instantly fly anywhere to personally take her down. You also forget that she represents one facet of feminism, not all of feminism. She doesn't speak for me nor does she represent me. Until you accept that, you'll labor under the misconception that she speaks for all feminists.

No, Edom, we pick our battles. I choose to contribute to young people rather than take on people half way across the country. My feminist approach is all about empowerment through knowledge. My enemy isn't patriarchy. My enemy is poverty, and gender role reinforcement whereby girls are told they are naturally "dumb at math" and boys are told they aren't any good unless they're good at [fill in the stereotype]. I am only one facet of modern feminism.

As for trolls? That comment is in relation to the people that troll these threads.


Now that outright pisses me off. Grown men are coming from a generation that didn't want to hear about male rape victims. Where the hell are these men supposed to turn now?

As a feminist I cringe every time I see this because it is just turning the tables and victim blaming men when they're raped. I have seen testimony that these victims get mocked by the authorities, or turned away from these lines, or are referred to batterer's programs. It's sickening. Sickening that, as a movement that was supposed to seek equality, many feminists just turn a blind eye to victims just because they happen to be men. We can't, as a society now, ignore this. We cannot make these men invisible. We need to reach out and help.

This is why many men's rights activists and others are bitter and angry at feminists, really. They were told to drop their defenses an be vulnerable--and then got kicked in the balls. In a way the worst offenders are the male feminists who are only concerned about helping women and are frequently heard to say "men have no comparable issues". Among the very worst of these is Michael Kimmel who appears only concerndd with tough men giving up privilege.

It is also true for women who have come to loathe feminism--they cared about their male relatives and friends and are outraged on their behalf, and feel betrayed that they were accused of being anti-feminist merelyf or doubting feminist policies or education.

So for both, this is really why they have become anti-feminist. And since many moderate, liberal or other non-radicals don't seem to really care about this, they don't trust them and don't feel they can count on them. I don't think that the extent of this is really understood. Warren Farrell has tried to talk about these issues and present the issue of gender roels as being more nuanced and complex than 3rd Wave popular feminism depicts, but has received a lot of hatred from feminists for it. This is a shame, because the reality is that people are actually trying to accept equality but aren't sure how and cannot swallow a purely ideological message that has at times little to no practicality.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As a feminist I cringe every time I see this because it is just turning the tables and victim blaming men when they're raped. I have seen testimony that these victims get mocked by the authorities, or turned away from these lines, or are referred to batterer's programs. It's sickening. Sickening that, as a movement that was supposed to seek equality, many feminists just turn a blind eye to victims just because they happen to be men. We can't, as a society now, ignore this. We cannot make these men invisible. We need to reach out and help.

This is why many men's rights activists and others are bitter and angry at feminists, really. They were told to drop their defenses an be vulnerable--and then got kicked in the balls. In a way the worst offenders are the male feminists who are only concerned about helping women and are frequently heard to say "men have no comparable issues". Among the very worst of these is Michael Kimmel who appears only concerndd with tough men giving up privilege.

It is also true for women who have come to loathe feminism--they cared about their male relatives and friends and are outraged on their behalf, and feel betrayed that they were accused of being anti-feminist merelyf or doubting feminist policies or education.

So for both, this is really why they have become anti-feminist. And since many moderate, liberal or other non-radicals don't seem to really care about this, they don't trust them and don't feel they can count on them. I don't think that the extent of this is really understood. Warren Farrell has tried to talk about these issues and present the issue of gender roels as being more nuanced and complex than 3rd Wave popular feminism depicts, but has received a lot of hatred from feminists for it. This is a shame, because the reality is that people are actually trying to accept equality but aren't sure how and cannot swallow a purely ideological message that has at times little to no practicality.

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

[Frenline Delpha]

This is why many men's rights activists and others are bitter and angry at feminists, really. They were told to drop their defenses an be vulnerable--and then got kicked in the balls. In a way the worst offenders are the male feminists who are only concerned about helping women and are frequently heard to say "men have no comparable issues". Among the very worst of these is Michael Kimmel who appears only concerndd with tough men giving up privilege.

It is also true for women who have come to loathe feminism--they cared about their male relatives and friends and are outraged on their behalf, and feel betrayed that they were accused of being anti-feminist merelyf or doubting feminist policies or education.

So for both, this is really why they have become anti-feminist. And since many moderate, liberal or other non-radicals don't seem to really care about this, they don't trust them and don't feel they can count on them. I don't think that the extent of this is really understood. Warren Farrell has tried to talk about these issues and present the issue of gender roels as being more nuanced and complex than 3rd Wave popular feminism depicts, but has received a lot of hatred from feminists for it. This is a shame, because the reality is that people are actually trying to accept equality but aren't sure how and cannot swallow a purely ideological message that has at times little to no practicality.

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

I wish I heard this from more feminists. You're quite the breath of fresh air.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

I wish I heard this from more feminists. You're quite the breath of fresh air.

I just think this is a misconception that needs to die a fiery death right now.

[The balkens]

This is why many men's rights activists and others are bitter and angry at feminists, really. They were told to drop their defenses an be vulnerable--and then got kicked in the balls. In a way the worst offenders are the male feminists who are only concerned about helping women and are frequently heard to say "men have no comparable issues". Among the very worst of these is Michael Kimmel who appears only concerndd with tough men giving up privilege.

It is also true for women who have come to loathe feminism--they cared about their male relatives and friends and are outraged on their behalf, and feel betrayed that they were accused of being anti-feminist merelyf or doubting feminist policies or education.

So for both, this is really why they have become anti-feminist. And since many moderate, liberal or other non-radicals don't seem to really care about this, they don't trust them and don't feel they can count on them. I don't think that the extent of this is really understood. Warren Farrell has tried to talk about these issues and present the issue of gender roels as being more nuanced and complex than 3rd Wave popular feminism depicts, but has received a lot of hatred from feminists for it. This is a shame, because the reality is that people are actually trying to accept equality but aren't sure how and cannot swallow a purely ideological message that has at times little to no practicality.

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

ill drink to that.

[New Edom]

This is why many men's rights activists and others are bitter and angry at feminists, really. They were told to drop their defenses an be vulnerable--and then got kicked in the balls. In a way the worst offenders are the male feminists who are only concerned about helping women and are frequently heard to say "men have no comparable issues". Among the very worst of these is Michael Kimmel who appears only concerndd with tough men giving up privilege.

It is also true for women who have come to loathe feminism--they cared about their male relatives and friends and are outraged on their behalf, and feel betrayed that they were accused of being anti-feminist merelyf or doubting feminist policies or education.

So for both, this is really why they have become anti-feminist. And since many moderate, liberal or other non-radicals don't seem to really care about this, they don't trust them and don't feel they can count on them. I don't think that the extent of this is really understood. Warren Farrell has tried to talk about these issues and present the issue of gender roels as being more nuanced and complex than 3rd Wave popular feminism depicts, but has received a lot of hatred from feminists for it. This is a shame, because the reality is that people are actually trying to accept equality but aren't sure how and cannot swallow a purely ideological message that has at times little to no practicality.

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

Yes, I believe that too, but it's become popular in some circles to laugh at people and say "oh you agree with equality for men and women? Then you're a femnist!" and then refuse to deal with any of the ideological stuff that automatically gets tacked on. And popular feminist leaders insist on mocking and rolling their eyes at people who say that sort of thing like saying you are an egalitarian but not a feminist is an oxymoron.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

Yes, I believe that too, but it's become popular in some circles to laugh at people and say "oh you agree with equality for men and women? Then you're a femnist!" and then refuse to deal with any of the ideological stuff that automatically gets tacked on. And popular feminist leaders insist on mocking and rolling their eyes at people who say that sort of thing like saying you are an egalitarian but not a feminist is an oxymoron.

Oh, I know. I've been called a funfem for believing what I believe by several other feminists. Or a traitor. I just don't permit brainwashing, you know. If you allow yourself to talk to people, and really listen to what they have to say regarding why they believe what they do regarding their particular ideology, you do end up learning many things.

A person who doesn't subscribe to feminism isn't automatically a women hater. To think otherwise is rather silly.

[Swith Witherward]

You can largely thank feminists like Mary Koss for this.

Powerful feminists - of which Mary Koss is probably a key component - have deliberately manipulated the data to try and present that men are almost never raped by women, even though rape of men by women is the most common type of rape men suffer. Squirrely definitions have been used to prevent that from being recognized as rape.

If you drill down into the data and really analyze it, you can see that, although there might be a disparity, it is so small it's hard to detect even which direction it's in. However, people don't normally drill all the way down into the data - they take the summary information which says "hey, basically all women are raped by men, and all men are raped by men", unaware that this does not include men who are raped by women in the most common way men are raped by women.

RAINN employees are not immune to this data manipulation.

Don't even get me started on Mary Koss. It was her "Incorporating Feminist Theory and Insights Into a Restorative Justice Response to Sex Offenses" that first left a bad taste in my mouth. It eventually fostered dialog regarding non-penetrative vs penetrative when assessing rape, IIRC, which of course would eventually exclude men from the victim lists. "You can't be raped. You don't have a vagina. You were hard."

I don't disagree with everything she's published during her career but I do feel she's now doing far more harm than good.

As a feminist I cringe every time I see this because it is just turning the tables and victim blaming men when they're raped. I have seen testimony that these victims get mocked by the authorities, or turned away from these lines, or are referred to batterer's programs. It's sickening. Sickening that, as a movement that was supposed to seek equality, many feminists just turn a blind eye to victims just because they happen to be men. We can't, as a society now, ignore this. We cannot make these men invisible. We need to reach out and help.

I absolutely agree.

I think that your position is very fair. Chanty Binx is just one example, you see a lot of that stuff--Jessica Valenti and her co-authors of Yes Means Yes only telling one side of the stsory which==however valid is still only one side, Gloria Steinem and Emma Watson feeding the idea that no one can possibly have any beef with modern femnism, all these 'educational' websites that present only their side of feminism being the true one. it's like dealign with a religion where every denomination pretends the other doesn't exist or is insane. I very rarely encounter feminists who are broad minded, so I think my position on it is also very fair.

Which brings me to my real concern. All this started for me when I was trying to raise awareness for abused boys. I wanted to have public service announcements profile women as possible abusers alongside men, and have boys as well as girls be profiled as possible victims. I made it clear I would even settle for ten percent representation. However I got such mystification and rejection as a result of it that I began to question how well feminists generally were responding. At many universities I find that people who are talking about these issues are talking patriarchy theory in the sense that females are victims, males are perps. It's slightly better int he last year or so, but I see that as very recent changes.

There is one shelter and counseling center in my city for men and boys, one place where they can get counseling otherwise they're paying through the nose for it. Like many boys who tried to report their abuse, I found that I was instead accused of being an abuser.

I know that there are feminists who are strongly opposed to that and who want all victims to be treated equally, but I see this as a minority voice which I hope will get stronger, but in the meantime it is an uphill battle.

There were some PSAs a while back that cast a light on female-on-male DV. They were actually quite good.

A CBS movie a long while ago put a spotlight on what abused men endure (and society's perceptions of them and the situation). It's titled "Men Don't Tell" and starred Peter Strauss and Judith Light. You can read the plot overview here on wiki.

Edit: this might be a slightly better copy of the movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_gLDF2dGLY

[New Edom]

You can largely thank feminists like Mary Koss for this.

Powerful feminists - of which Mary Koss is probably a key component - have deliberately manipulated the data to try and present that men are almost never raped by women, even though rape of men by women is the most common type of rape men suffer. Squirrely definitions have been used to prevent that from being recognized as rape.

If you drill down into the data and really analyze it, you can see that, although there might be a disparity, it is so small it's hard to detect even which direction it's in. However, people don't normally drill all the way down into the data - they take the summary information which says "hey, basically all women are raped by men, and all men are raped by men", unaware that this does not include men who are raped by women in the most common way men are raped by women.

RAINN employees are not immune to this data manipulation.

Don't even get me started on Mary Koss. It was her "Incorporating Feminist Theory and Insights Into a Restorative Justice Response to Sex Offenses" that first left a bad taste in my mouth. It eventually fostered dialog regarding non-penetrative vs penetrative when assessing rape, IIRC, which of course would eventually exclude men from the victim lists. "You can't be raped. You don't have a vagina. You were hard."

I don't disagree with everything she's published during her career but I do feel she's now doing far more harm than good.

As a feminist I cringe every time I see this because it is just turning the tables and victim blaming men when they're raped. I have seen testimony that these victims get mocked by the authorities, or turned away from these lines, or are referred to batterer's programs. It's sickening. Sickening that, as a movement that was supposed to seek equality, many feminists just turn a blind eye to victims just because they happen to be men. We can't, as a society now, ignore this. We cannot make these men invisible. We need to reach out and help.

I absolutely agree.

I think that your position is very fair. Chanty Binx is just one example, you see a lot of that stuff--Jessica Valenti and her co-authors of Yes Means Yes only telling one side of the stsory which==however valid is still only one side, Gloria Steinem and Emma Watson feeding the idea that no one can possibly have any beef with modern femnism, all these 'educational' websites that present only their side of feminism being the true one. it's like dealign with a religion where every denomination pretends the other doesn't exist or is insane. I very rarely encounter feminists who are broad minded, so I think my position on it is also very fair.

Which brings me to my real concern. All this started for me when I was trying to raise awareness for abused boys. I wanted to have public service announcements profile women as possible abusers alongside men, and have boys as well as girls be profiled as possible victims. I made it clear I would even settle for ten percent representation. However I got such mystification and rejection as a result of it that I began to question how well feminists generally were responding. At many universities I find that people who are talking about these issues are talking patriarchy theory in the sense that females are victims, males are perps. It's slightly better int he last year or so, but I see that as very recent changes.

There is one shelter and counseling center in my city for men and boys, one place where they can get counseling otherwise they're paying through the nose for it. Like many boys who tried to report their abuse, I found that I was instead accused of being an abuser.

I know that there are feminists who are strongly opposed to that and who want all victims to be treated equally, but I see this as a minority voice which I hope will get stronger, but in the meantime it is an uphill battle.

There were some PSAs a while back that cast a light on female-on-male DV. They were actually quite good.

A CBS movie a long while ago put a spotlight on what abused men endure (and society's perceptions of them and the situation). It's titled "Men Don't Tell" and starred Peter Strauss and Judith Light. You can read the plot overview here on wiki.

Edit: this might be a slightly better copy of the movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_gLDF2dGLY

Thanks, I'll check it out.

What do you think of the fact that gender studies programs, particularly in the anglosphere, are feeding the victim narrative? Do you think it would be better to stop funding them and to instead just make sure that subjects are taught fairly? (for example the role of early feminists in shaping Canadian social history was focused on in my Canadian history class last year.)

[New Edom]

Yes, I believe that too, but it's become popular in some circles to laugh at people and say "oh you agree with equality for men and women? Then you're a femnist!" and then refuse to deal with any of the ideological stuff that automatically gets tacked on. And popular feminist leaders insist on mocking and rolling their eyes at people who say that sort of thing like saying you are an egalitarian but not a feminist is an oxymoron.

Oh, I know. I've been called a funfem for believing what I believe by several other feminists. Or a traitor. I just don't permit brainwashing, you know. If you allow yourself to talk to people, and really listen to what they have to say regarding why they believe what they do regarding their particular ideology, you do end up learning many things.

A person who doesn't subscribe to feminism isn't automatically a women hater. To think otherwise is rather silly.

If more feminists in the media and on the internet and in education responded this way--with trying to find common ground about equality rather than focusing on ideological puritanism, it would be a lot better. If more feminists acknowledged that there are problems and controversies and that men's issues need to be approached with fairness, there would be a lot less anti-feminism, because there would appear to be real choices about it. I also think if the few well known liberal feminists who do care about fairness were supported more visibly it would also help feminism's case. I think until that hapens more people will continue to become wary if not hostile towards feminist ideas and will if they care about equality find other ways to talk about it and deal with it.

[Costa Fierro]

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

This is the problem with Natapoc I had on the other thread. She's pretty much said if you're not a feminist, you aren't for equality. It's hard to convince people who are so far gone in terms of radicalism that this simply is a load of bullshit.

Why? Because it's this concept of "privilege". A fictional social construct conceived by feminists and other left-wing lunatics who think that certain groups of people are afforded certain "privileges" in society and who think society will only be equal if these "privileges" are done away with. And because men are inherently "privileged" in society, it means that they do not suffer from discrimination or inequalities, both social and legal, in the same way women do. Hence why men cannot be legally seen as rape victims is because men are "privileged". Women are not, and hence why only women should be seen as victims.

It's a dangerous and sexist outlook on society and quite frankly, I hope it's eradicated.

[The Alexanderians]

I've said this before, and I think my husband has too, but something that needs to be understood is that just because you do not agree with feminism doesn't mean you're against equality or a misogynist. I've met many people who do not subscribe to feminism and are egalitarian and believe that both men and women should be equal. They just do not identify as feminists.

This is the problem with Natapoc I had on the other thread. She's pretty much said if you're not a feminist, you aren't for equality. It's hard to convince people who are so far gone in terms of radicalism that this simply is a load of bullshit.

Why? Because it's this concept of "privilege". A fictional social construct conceived by feminists and other left-wing lunatics who think that certain groups of people are afforded certain "privileges" in society and who think society will only be equal if these "privileges" are done away with. And because men are inherently "privileged" in society, it means that they do not suffer from discrimination or inequalities, both social and legal, in the same way women do. Hence why men cannot be legally seen as rape victims is because men are "privileged". Women are not, and hence why only women should be seen as victims.

It's a dangerous and sexist outlook on society and quite frankly, I hope it's eradicated.

With us or against us is to blame too, but I hope it is too

[Xadufell]

While personally I believe that Third Wave Feminism is just the ultimate victimizer of women, there still are issues that plague both genders. Rape happens to both men and women, as much as these feminists think only women can be raped. I have never been raped but I know several who have and it isn't easy for them. I know I'm a "Privileged Cis-White Male" but most issues that women have had have been solved. There is no pay gap, but there is a wage gap because the women don't work as much (Not saying they can't, it's because of maternal duties such as taking care of kids etc.) so you can't say "Oh men get payed more than women no matter what." Another thing that takes down the "pay gap" is the Equal Pay Act of 1963 which insures that everyone is paid equally no matter what gender or race, etc. I think feminism should stop worrying about "Microagressions" and "Triggering" and start worrying about the women in the Middle East who experience much sexism and abuse. The first world third wave feminists know nothing of the true hardships some women experience and I think they should start focusing on that more.

That's just my two cents on the matter.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, I know. I've been called a funfem for believing what I believe by several other feminists. Or a traitor. I just don't permit brainwashing, you know. If you allow yourself to talk to people, and really listen to what they have to say regarding why they believe what they do regarding their particular ideology, you do end up learning many things.

A person who doesn't subscribe to feminism isn't automatically a women hater. To think otherwise is rather silly.

If more feminists in the media and on the internet and in education responded this way--with trying to find common ground about equality rather than focusing on ideological puritanism, it would be a lot better. If more feminists acknowledged that there are problems and controversies and that men's issues need to be approached with fairness, there would be a lot less anti-feminism, because there would appear to be real choices about it. I also think if the few well known liberal feminists who do care about fairness were supported more visibly it would also help feminism's case. I think until that hapens more people will continue to become wary if not hostile towards feminist ideas and will if they care about equality find other ways to talk about it and deal with it.

To be fair, it takes a concerted effort to break with the herd mentality one sometimes finds among feminist circles. Let me stress, not all feminists think the same way. But there seems to be, at times, a pervading status quo (ex: men can't be raped, or, men can't be victims of abuse by women) that can be rather infuriating.