The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Tahar Joblis]

Oh, oh God...

Please don't go full SJW, Natapoc.

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

Arguing from two cases is a hasty generalization. There is a significant difference between black and white sentencing, but it is not as large as those two selected cases would suggest.

Unsurprisingly, there are numerous differences other than the sentence between those two cases.

See here for one summary.

So. What happened in Case 2? He was convicted of doing seven things. From the above article:

• Count 1: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with fingers; guilty of aggravated sexual battery
• Count 2: aggravated rape, penetration of anus with fingers; guilty
• Count 3: aggravated rape, fellatio on mouth; guilty of attempted aggravated rape
• Count 4: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with penis; guilty of attempted aggravated rape
• Count 5: criminal responsibility for Brandon E. Banks penetrating anus with object; guilty of facilitation of aggravated rape
• Count 6: aggravated sexual battery, criminal responsibility for Banks touching genital area; guilty
• Count 7: aggravated sexual battery, Batey placing his buttocks on face; guilty

In the Stanford case, we have a conviction on only three charges (names taken from the Wiki article):

• assault with intent to rape an intoxicated woman
• sexually penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object
• sexually penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object.

Second, in the Vanderbilt case, there were four men involved with abusing the unconscious woman in question. This was a group activity. That makes for a very different case.

Third, the primary evidence was very different. In the Vanderbilt case, video evidence and photographic evidence (some taken deliberately by one of the assailants) was involved. In the Stanford case, you had witnesses stumbling across a murky scene in progress at night and taking action.

Fourth, California and Tennesee are different states with different specific laws applicable as charges, and different sentencing practices.

This is not to say that race is not a factor, but there were a number of very large key differences here in addition to race. An additional unfair pair of factors are social class and (very likely) quality of lawyer.

To call this male privilege is completely absurd. A woman who did the same thing would probably not have even been arrested, much less charged and convicted.

[Frenline Delpha]

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

Arguing from two cases is a hasty generalization. There is a significant difference between black and white sentencing, but it is not as large as those two selected cases would suggest.

Unsurprisingly, there are numerous differences other than the sentence between those two cases.

See here for one summary.

So. What happened in Case 2? He was convicted of doing seven things. From the above article:

• Count 1: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with fingers; guilty of aggravated sexual battery
• Count 2: aggravated rape, penetration of anus with fingers; guilty
• Count 3: aggravated rape, fellatio on mouth; guilty of attempted aggravated rape
• Count 4: aggravated rape, penetration of vagina with penis; guilty of attempted aggravated rape
• Count 5: criminal responsibility for Brandon E. Banks penetrating anus with object; guilty of facilitation of aggravated rape
• Count 6: aggravated sexual battery, criminal responsibility for Banks touching genital area; guilty
• Count 7: aggravated sexual battery, Batey placing his buttocks on face; guilty

In the Stanford case, we have a conviction on only three charges (names taken from the Wiki article):

• assault with intent to rape an intoxicated woman
• sexually penetrating an intoxicated person with a foreign object
• sexually penetrating an unconscious person with a foreign object.

Second, in the Vanderbilt case, there were four men involved with abusing the unconscious woman in question. This was a group activity. That makes for a very different case.

Third, the primary evidence was very different. In the Vanderbilt case, video evidence and photographic evidence (some taken deliberately by one of the assailants) was involved. In the Stanford case, you had witnesses stumbling across a murky scene in progress at night and taking action.

Fourth, California and Tennesee are different states with different specific laws applicable as charges, and different sentencing practices.

This is not to say that race is not a factor, but there were a number of very large key differences here in addition to race. An additional unfair pair of factors are social class and (very likely) quality of lawyer.

To call this male privilege is completely absurd. A woman who did the same thing would probably not have even been arrested, much less charged and convicted.

Remember, it isn't rape if a woman does it. Right? Right?

[The Alexanderians]

I don't want to come of as sounding self indulged or trying to seek attention or anything like that but...
I'll just say it.
I can't ever tell my family I've been raped. I don't know what to do I can't call a help line I did that after it happened and that backfired immensely. I felt I had had moved on from it happening over a year ago but I never got around to telling my family. Aside from telling my father I was sexually assaulted but I skipped the details. The only person I've talk to about it was my priest but this development of finding out I can never tell my family...is unsetttling and bring back some bad vibes. I don't know what to do.

[New Edom]

I don't want to come of as sounding self indulged or trying to seek attention or anything like that but...
I'll just say it.
I can't ever tell my family I've been raped. I don't know what to do I can't call a help line I did that after it happened and that backfired immensely. I felt I had had moved on from it happening over a year ago but I never got around to telling my family. Aside from telling my father I was sexually assaulted but I skipped the details. The only person I've talk to about it was my priest but this development of finding out I can never tell my family...is unsetttling and bring back some bad vibes. I don't know what to do.

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

[The Alexanderians]

I don't want to come of as sounding self indulged or trying to seek attention or anything like that but...
I'll just say it.
I can't ever tell my family I've been raped. I don't know what to do I can't call a help line I did that after it happened and that backfired immensely. I felt I had had moved on from it happening over a year ago but I never got around to telling my family. Aside from telling my father I was sexually assaulted but I skipped the details. The only person I've talk to about it was my priest but this development of finding out I can never tell my family...is unsetttling and bring back some bad vibes. I don't know what to do.

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

[Frenline Delpha]

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

Wow.

[New Edom]

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

There are very few resources usually for men to deal with in this regard.

Frankly I don't want to link you to anything on the main forum, so I'll send you a telegram.

[Grande Republic of Arcadia]

I need
feminism
Because i need something to laugh at.

This pertains to 3rd wave feminism

[Iridencia]

I need
feminism
Because i need something to laugh at.

This pertains to 3rd wave feminism

Oh look, yet another someone who decided to crash in here and start proverbially throwing tables, beating his chest, and screaming "COME AT ME BRO!!!" in expectation for an epic battle with a swarm of rabid tumblr-feminist backlash because he's never read the thread or seen the discussions that take place here and only knows that the word "feminist" is in the title.

Funny how that never gets old.

[Hirota]

Oh, oh God...

Please don't go full SJW, Natapoc.

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

I guess you couldn't have used Sam Ukwuachu as your comparison could you. That would undermine the narrative.

[Tokuopolis]

Hello. I am a male feminist.

You know what I think might be part of the reason female characters have less diverse body shapes and types in things like comic books, video games and cartoons? I think it's partially because of a lack of how to draw guides for that sort of thing. It's kind of a self-reinforcing thing, I guess.

Almost every how to draw guide I've read though my life, whether superhero, manga, or cartooning, gives a wide variety of body types for men and male characters but far fewer for female characters.

A few of them do cover different female body types, but they're never that diverse or unusual, and some of them only mention the idea in passing, with little on how to draw these different body types. Most of the ones that do have suggestions on how to draw more muscular/athletic women say to just keep it downplayed, but this never made sense to me, even as a kid. Men can be anywhere to athletic to hyper-muscular hulks, whereas women can only be slightly muscular? What the heck???

While they may be useful in other areas, this area is one where they really made a mistake. But I feel I can help to correct this mistake.

Not all heterosexual or bisexual (etc.) men have the same taste in women, or the same 'sexual fetishes'.

Are there any how to guides for drawing big beautiful women, she-hulks and the like that aren't online?

I might ask some people at college about this.
Sources:
how to draw women example one
Disney Pixar females same face and body
PBS Game Show Why Are Videogame Bodies So Extreme?
Body shapes for women
Bogleech post

[New Edom]

Hello. I am a male feminist.

You know what I think might be part of the reason female characters have less diverse body shapes and types in things like comic books, video games and cartoons? I think it's partially because of a lack of how to draw guides for that sort of thing. It's kind of a self-reinforcing thing, I guess.

Almost every how to draw guide I've read though my life, whether superhero, manga, or cartooning, gives a wide variety of body types for men and male characters but far fewer for female characters.

A few of them do cover different female body types, but they're never that diverse or unusual, and some of them only mention the idea in passing, with little on how to draw these different body types. Most of the ones that do have suggestions on how to draw more muscular/athletic women say to just keep it downplayed, but this never made sense to me, even as a kid. Men can be anywhere to athletic to hyper-muscular hulks, whereas women can only be slightly muscular? What the heck???

While they may be useful in other areas, this area is one where they really made a mistake. But I feel I can help to correct this mistake.

Not all heterosexual or bisexual (etc.) men have the same taste in women, or the same 'sexual fetishes'.

Are there any how to guides for drawing big beautiful women, she-hulks and the like that aren't online?

I might ask some people at college about this.
Sources:
how to draw women example one
Disney Pixar females same face and body
PBS Game Show Why Are Videogame Bodies So Extreme?
Body shapes for women
[url=http://bogleech.tumblr.com/post/137492748598/its-not-like-i-dont-know-where-people-are-coming[/url]

What varieties exist for men? Comic book heroes are slight variations on the same body shape and you can only tell them apart by their clothes, hair colour, skin colour, etc. There's basically a handful of body shapes men usually have in animation and cartoons:
- athletic
- standard slim guy
- fat guy

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't want to come of as sounding self indulged or trying to seek attention or anything like that but...
I'll just say it.
I can't ever tell my family I've been raped. I don't know what to do I can't call a help line I did that after it happened and that backfired immensely. I felt I had had moved on from it happening over a year ago but I never got around to telling my family. Aside from telling my father I was sexually assaulted but I skipped the details. The only person I've talk to about it was my priest but this development of finding out I can never tell my family...is unsetttling and bring back some bad vibes. I don't know what to do.

Seek counseling, as Edom said. Also, if you feel you can confide in your family, tell them.

Asides that, I'm sorry that happened to you. If you need to talk about it, my TG box is open.

[Tokuopolis]

Hello. I am a male feminist.

You know what I think might be part of the reason female characters have less diverse body shapes and types in things like comic books, video games and cartoons? I think it's partially because of a lack of how to draw guides for that sort of thing. It's kind of a self-reinforcing thing, I guess.

Almost every how to draw guide I've read though my life, whether superhero, manga, or cartooning, gives a wide variety of body types for men and male characters but far fewer for female characters.

A few of them do cover different female body types, but they're never that diverse or unusual, and some of them only mention the idea in passing, with little on how to draw these different body types. Most of the ones that do have suggestions on how to draw more muscular/athletic women say to just keep it downplayed, but this never made sense to me, even as a kid. Men can be anywhere to athletic to hyper-muscular hulks, whereas women can only be slightly muscular? What the heck???

While they may be useful in other areas, this area is one where they really made a mistake. But I feel I can help to correct this mistake.

Not all heterosexual or bisexual (etc.) men have the same taste in women, or the same 'sexual fetishes'.

Are there any how to guides for drawing big beautiful women, she-hulks and the like that aren't online?

I might ask some people at college about this.
Sources:
how to draw women example one
Disney Pixar females same face and body
PBS Game Show Why Are Videogame Bodies So Extreme?
Body shapes for women
[url=http://bogleech.tumblr.com/post/137492748598/its-not-like-i-dont-know-where-people-are-coming[/url]

What varieties exist for men? Comic book heroes are slight variations on the same body shape and you can only tell them apart by their clothes, hair colour, skin colour, etc. There's basically a handful of body shapes men usually have in animation and cartoons:
- athletic
- standard slim guy
- fat guy

It was just something I noticed in how to draw books, and with the debate and discourse over lack of female body diversity in things like video games, cartoons, comics etc. recently, I decided to talk about it.

In how to draw comic-books/superhero (and others for similar, related genres) guides, there usually aren't that many different body types for women, meaning budding cartoonists often actually lack the right sort of training to draw and create women with different body types.

For example, In the book "Creating Superheroes and Comic Book Characters" by Jim Hansen and John Burns (2005), which covers three separate art styles (2000s Thick-outline cartoon style, action cartoon superhero and Manga). In the first "chapter", there are several different designs for male characters (a chiseled superman parody, a "generously girthed sidekick", "a tall thin villain" and "a short guy"), but only one female (the "shapely sidekick" of the superman parody). Second "chapter" has several different designs for adult men (hulking, overweight or just athletic) but just one for adult women ("petite and fast"). It also includes one design for a teenage male, one design for a teenage female, one design for a preteen female and one design for a preteen male. The Manga chapter features one design each for men and women. In Cartooning (QED Learn Art) (2004), there are many more male cartoon characters than female ones. In "Awesome things to draw: Heroes and Villains" (2008), there is one female character (a Lara Croft-esque adventurer), but all the rest are male (the gladiator, greek warrior, knight, ninja, musketeer, outlaw, pirate, mad scientist, samurai, superhero, secret agent, sheriff, and Robin Hood). In the how to draw book "Superhero Madness" (2005), it mentions extreme proportions but only for male characters (a stretchy guy, a stocky dwarf and an ape-like "big guy"). It does feature non-superheroine female characters, in the form of a policewoman and an old lady, which many other superhero how to draw books lack.

I remember reading one a few years ago. It said "features and figures frequently remain the same..." and "not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones", which are some good points. When it got to how to draw a muscular woman though, it was titled "strong but sexy" and included the sentence "don't make your superheroine into a massively muscled female bodybuilder". That annoyed me. Some of the others I've seen also make similar sentences about drawing "hyper-muscular women". If (some) male superheroes get to be massively muscled male bodybuilders, why can't (some) superheroines be massively muscled female bodybuilders? It's that kind of thinking that means "features and figures frequently remain the same...", because artists struggle to draw women outside of these very specific and arbitrary standards. "Not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones" and not all straight(or bisexual) men have the same sexual fetishes or fantasies, so you should remember the diversity of your audience, and who you're including and excluding. Why couldn't the chapter have been titled Strong AND Sexy? Why can't these books show us how to draw hyper-muscular women? To paraphrase Rowdy C Moore "Check the internet, people. There are fetishes for everything. You will find more than a few people who find massively muscled female bodybuilders attractive"

This is not to say these books are bad, or intentionally sexist, as I believe something can contain sexist elements without being sexist as a whole. Most of these books are from a while ago, and I read them before I was fully aware of things like feminism. But in 2016, such attitudes about female character design need to fade away, and "all female characters MUST BE X" must do to. A lot of this language and lack of different designs for female characters plays into the wider societal idea that a woman/girl's worth is in her appearance, which can be seen almost everywhere.

And loads of them say the female characters in superhero fiction must always be attractive, even if she's a villain. But by whose standards are these female superheroes attractive or unattractive? There are many different sexual fetishes and standards of attractiveness across the world and across history, and even within individual countries.

You'd expect a character with a name like "She-Hulk" to look like this

. But instead she usually looks like this

(slightly athletic and muscular but not as much as the hulk himself

)

Quotes about the muscular She-Hulk fanart I showed you (and other work by the same artist):

When She-Hulk first appeared (YEARS ago), I read about the first issue in the checklist in another comic and it said "Savage She-Hulk". My puberty soaked imagination instantly envisioned something like this, but when the first issue came out...well, let's just say I was a little disappointed. Sure, she was big, but mostly just tall and well developed. Still, she's remained one of my major comic heroine crushes to this day.

Now, all these years later, I find this. The size...the power...the beauty...the majesty. It's what I had dreamed of so long ago.

If Hulk is a massive, hulking man, why would She-Hulk be any different?

It p*sses me off that mainstream pop culture persists in mandating that all women be skinny and soft. To see that extended into the comic book franchise bothers me still, and to make a character and call her She Hulk merits a bit more alteration to the standard skinny female physique than to just make her a little bit taller. Pathetic of the comic books. . .truly pathetic.

She Hulk in General:

Evan Snow-Wolf said:
"All of these scientific answers are complete B.S. There is no scientific reason She Hulk has no muscle. None. Zero. She Hulk has no muscle because Marvel doesn't MAKE muscular women. Period. No matter how much Strength the female is supposed to have, they will never draw them REGULARLY with larger than 14" biceps and maybe some abs. Make yourself a list of Superstrength females. Now do a muscle check. EXACTLY. There is ONE exception. And that is Titania, a bad guy. Good guy females do not get muscle. There is a sexist attitude that muscles are a man only trait. I stand by my long time belief that if you were to take a picture of She Hulk that was not wearing a uniform, copy it and save it as a Black and White image, no one would ever be able to tell you which Marvel character you were showing them. Its a lazy tactic where any picture of Jennifer GREEN is She-Hulk. Characters like Bishop and Cyclops are drawn with more more muscle, despite having no special strength powers, then female characters listed as capable of lifting double digits in terms of tonnage. Its sexist, pure and simple to sell comics. And I really don't think its too much to ask for 5 - 10 females to be drawn accurately with upper limit bodybuilder style muscles when the other 3,000 Marvel women are drawn like they came out of MAXIM magazine. "

We've seen the well-established gamma radiation that causes Jennifer Walters to hulk out into the iconic and voluptuous She Hulk. Thanks to us, the admirers of muscular women, we've gone so far as to depict She Hulk in the way that many of us, not all mind you, believe she should be seen: as nearly massive as the Hulk himself. But to each his own, and there are no doubt many others who prefer her the way she's officially seen in established media.

Women protagonists are almost always hot. For example, geeks/dorks/scientists that actually look like geeks/dorks/scientists are almost always men, whereas the Invisible Woman will be played by Jessica Alba. Nonhumans that actually look like nonhumans skew heavily towards male. If there is a woman that looks like a nonhuman, she’ll probably have the ability to alter her appearance and is much more likely to use that power often (e.g. contrast Mystique with the Martian Manhunter). Also, compare Vixen (a supermodel that sometimes gets as strong or as fast as a particular animal) to Beast Boy (a green guy who turns into animals). She-Hulk looks like a supermodel that is green, whereas the Hulk is green and ugly. Please note that comic book guys tend to be a lot more attractive than actual guys as well. The difference here is that the few unattractive heroes grossly outnumber any unattractive heroines. As for villainesses, I think most are hot and several are ugly, but in-between is exceptionally rare.

About female body type Diversity in General:

When people say that sexualized female characters are a little out of hand or that there’s not enough racial diversity in video games, they’re not trying to inflict censorship or just being too sensitive or go back to the comics code.

They’re pointing out that things went too far in an opposite extreme that isn’t necessary anymore. It’s been long enough that the novelty of hyper-sexual ultraviolence should be wearing out, shouldn’t it?

Nobody wants it ELIMINATED, audiences are just being honest that it’s getting old, that a lot of them have interests and tastes beyond that. That maybe they also like buff, hulking female characters and slender, half-naked male characters too. People just want this stuff to even out and developers to consider the more varied demographics buying their products.

Men can be hulking, agile, stocky, lanky, attractive, ugly, or just your average non-descript dude. But unless the women is the antagonist or the mother figure, they're almost always beautiful, unscarred, thin, blemish-free and makeuped

Feminism in General quote:

“Sexual violence, female genital mutilation, sex trafficking and the impact of laws that discriminate on the basis of sex are the issues that I believe suffragettes would be working on today. Feminism is now less of a fight and more about fixing the imbalances in the world, so that all of us benefit. A more gender-equal world would result in solving many of the current problems, including poverty, conflict and terrorism. To get there, a good starting point is challenging the sex stereotypes that we encounter in our daily lives.”

Male muscularity in comic book art and how to draw books varies anywhere athletic to realistically muscular to exaggeratedly hulking. Women can only seem to fall on the lower half of the scale, according to these how to draw books.

I know cartoons and comic books etc. aren't perfect reflections of real life, nor should they try to be. But if they want to be fantastical, surely the body types of their heroes and heroines can be just as varied and diverse as their powers and abilities. There are many different art styles for superhero comics, but almost all the superhero (and manga) art books I've read tend to make all the women the same body type in different art styles.

I feel it's more than just the unconscious biases of the creators themselves, and/or the societies they live in, it's also due to a lack of body diversity in guides for drawing women, or drawing female characters in 'genres' like Science fiction, fantasy, superhero and manga. It's difficult to draw women of different body types in part due to a lack of resources for drawing those kinds of characters.

Paraphrase from PBS Game Show: "Ultimately, Rethinking how we represent body standards isn't about depriving or censoring fiction. It's about adding to their variety and creativity to make fiction better for everyone". It'll be a slow and gradual change, yes, but we could at least try to not pass on sexist assumptions to younger generations (in this case, budding teenage/college age artists or even younger). I believe that until cartoonists have a wider and more mainstream pool of resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes (and ethnicities, religions, etc.), I think it'll be difficult for artists to draw different kinds of women. I know the internet has resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes, but throughout the past 2 decades (the 1990s and 2000s) How to Draw books were the standard, and what I read and bought to teach myself drawing skills. They're still made today, so shouldn't they reflect today's standards?

Feminism must be fought on all fronts. And in teaching young, budding artists how to draw, can we teach them how to draw all sorts of women and men, rather than just one kind of woman and dozens of kinds of men? I say yes. In 2016, there's no need for all superheroines and manga heroines to have more or less the same body type.

But what do you think? Do you think teaching budding comic book artists and cartoonists how to draw different kinds of female characters will allow change in mediums like comics, video games and cartoons to happen? It'll be interesting to see what you think.

Thank you.

[url=http://www.lettoysbetoys.org.uk/faqs/]Let toys be Toys FAQ[/url]
Pinkstinks FAQ
Extra Credits: True Female Characters
EC: Art Is not the opposite of Fun
EC: No Gendered Mechanics
How is Ms. Marvel Changing Media for the Better?
Men Are Generic Women Are Special
Perceptions of perfection across 18 countries
What The ‘Ideal’ Woman’s Body Looks Like In 18 Countries
Analysis of men are strong, women are pretty
ON BODY IMAGE, DIVERSITY, AND COMICS’ OUTDATED STANDARD OF BEAUTY
21st Century Suffragettes
Muscular Model MAC cosmetics
Muscular Model Mac Cosmetics Buzzfeed
Gender Stereotypes Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/04/sports-illustrated-cover-barbie-sexualisation-arguments-feminism-body-image
10 stupid arguments people use to defend comic book Sexism
Superhero Nation Talks about Superhero cliches, including designs of superheroines/female protagonists
Female Muscle sizes chart
Female Muscle Ideal Proportion
How to Draw a plus size figure

[New Edom]

What varieties exist for men? Comic book heroes are slight variations on the same body shape and you can only tell them apart by their clothes, hair colour, skin colour, etc. There's basically a handful of body shapes men usually have in animation and cartoons:
- athletic
- standard slim guy
- fat guy

It was just something I noticed in how to draw books, and with the debate and discourse over lack of female body diversity in things like video games, cartoons, comics etc. recently, I decided to talk about it.

In how to draw comic-books/superhero (and others for similar, related genres) guides, there usually aren't that many different body types for women, meaning budding cartoonists often actually lack the right sort of training to draw and create women with different body types.

For example, In the book "Creating Superheroes and Comic Book Characters" by Jim Hansen and John Burns (2005), which covers three separate art styles (2000s Thick-outline cartoon style, action cartoon superhero and Manga). In the first "chapter", there are several different designs for male characters (a chiseled superman parody, a "generously girthed sidekick", "a tall thin villain" and "a short guy"), but only one female (the "shapely sidekick" of the superman parody). Second "chapter" has several different designs for adult men (hulking, overweight or just athletic) but just one for adult women ("petite and fast"). It also includes one design for a teenage male, one design for a teenage female, one design for a preteen female and one design for a preteen male. The Manga chapter features one design each for men and women. In Cartooning (QED Learn Art) (2004), there are many more male cartoon characters than female ones. In "Awesome things to draw: Heroes and Villains" (2008), there is one female character (a Lara Croft-esque adventurer), but all the rest are male (the gladiator, greek warrior, knight, ninja, musketeer, outlaw, pirate, mad scientist, samurai, superhero, secret agent, sheriff, and Robin Hood). In the how to draw book "Superhero Madness" (2005), it mentions extreme proportions but only for male characters (a stretchy guy, a stocky dwarf and an ape-like "big guy"). It does feature non-superheroine female characters, in the form of a policewoman and an old lady, which many other superhero how to draw books lack.

I remember reading one a few years ago. It said "features and figures frequently remain the same..." and "not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones", which are some good points. When it got to how to draw a muscular woman though, it was titled "strong but sexy" and included the sentence "don't make your superheroine into a massively muscled female bodybuilder". That annoyed me. Some of the others I've seen also make similar sentences about drawing "hyper-muscular women". If (some) male superheroes get to be massively muscled male bodybuilders, why can't (some) superheroines be massively muscled female bodybuilders? It's that kind of thinking that means "features and figures frequently remain the same...", because artists struggle to draw women outside of these very specific and arbitrary standards. "Not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones" and not all straight(or bisexual) men have the same sexual fetishes or fantasies, so you should remember the diversity of your audience, and who you're including and excluding. Why couldn't the chapter have been titled Strong AND Sexy? Why can't these books show us how to draw hyper-muscular women? To paraphrase Rowdy C Moore "Check the internet, people. There are fetishes for everything. You will find more than a few people who find massively muscled female bodybuilders attractive"

This is not to say these books are bad, or intentionally sexist, as I believe something can contain sexist elements without being sexist as a whole. Most of these books are from a while ago, and I read them before I was fully aware of things like feminism. But in 2016, such attitudes about female character design need to fade away, and "all female characters MUST BE X" must do to. A lot of this language and lack of different designs for female characters plays into the wider societal idea that a woman/girl's worth is in her appearance, which can be seen almost everywhere.

And loads of them say the female characters in superhero fiction must always be attractive, even if she's a villain. But by whose standards are these female superheroes attractive or unattractive? There are many different sexual fetishes and standards of attractiveness across the world and across history, and even within individual countries.

You'd expect a character with a name like "She-Hulk" to look like this

. But instead she usually looks like this

(slightly athletic and muscular but not as much as the hulk himself

)

Quotes about the muscular She-Hulk fanart I showed you (and other work by the same artist):

When She-Hulk first appeared (YEARS ago), I read about the first issue in the checklist in another comic and it said "Savage She-Hulk". My puberty soaked imagination instantly envisioned something like this, but when the first issue came out...well, let's just say I was a little disappointed. Sure, she was big, but mostly just tall and well developed. Still, she's remained one of my major comic heroine crushes to this day.

Now, all these years later, I find this. The size...the power...the beauty...the majesty. It's what I had dreamed of so long ago.

If Hulk is a massive, hulking man, why would She-Hulk be any different?

It p*sses me off that mainstream pop culture persists in mandating that all women be skinny and soft. To see that extended into the comic book franchise bothers me still, and to make a character and call her She Hulk merits a bit more alteration to the standard skinny female physique than to just make her a little bit taller. Pathetic of the comic books. . .truly pathetic.

She Hulk in General:

We've seen the well-established gamma radiation that causes Jennifer Walters to hulk out into the iconic and voluptuous She Hulk. Thanks to us, the admirers of muscular women, we've gone so far as to depict She Hulk in the way that many of us, not all mind you, believe she should be seen: as nearly massive as the Hulk himself. But to each his own, and there are no doubt many others who prefer her the way she's officially seen in established media.

Women protagonists are almost always hot. For example, geeks/dorks/scientists that actually look like geeks/dorks/scientists are almost always men, whereas the Invisible Woman will be played by Jessica Alba. Nonhumans that actually look like nonhumans skew heavily towards male. If there is a woman that looks like a nonhuman, she’ll probably have the ability to alter her appearance and is much more likely to use that power often (e.g. contrast Mystique with the Martian Manhunter). Also, compare Vixen (a supermodel that sometimes gets as strong or as fast as a particular animal) to Beast Boy (a green guy who turns into animals). She-Hulk looks like a supermodel that is green, whereas the Hulk is green and ugly. Please note that comic book guys tend to be a lot more attractive than actual guys as well. The difference here is that the few unattractive heroes grossly outnumber any unattractive heroines. As for villainesses, I think most are hot and several are ugly, but in-between is exceptionally rare.

About female body type Diversity in General:

When people say that sexualized female characters are a little out of hand or that there’s not enough racial diversity in video games, they’re not trying to inflict censorship or just being too sensitive or go back to the comics code.

They’re pointing out that things went too far in an opposite extreme that isn’t necessary anymore. It’s been long enough that the novelty of hyper-sexual ultraviolence should be wearing out, shouldn’t it?

Nobody wants it ELIMINATED, audiences are just being honest that it’s getting old, that a lot of them have interests and tastes beyond that. That maybe they also like buff, hulking female characters and slender, half-naked male characters too. People just want this stuff to even out and developers to consider the more varied demographics buying their products.

Men can be hulking, agile, stocky, lanky, attractive, ugly, or just your average non-descript dude. But unless the women is the antagonist or the mother figure, they're almost always beautiful, unscarred, thin, blemish-free and makeuped

Feminism in General quote:

“Sexual violence, female genital mutilation, sex trafficking and the impact of laws that discriminate on the basis of sex are the issues that I believe suffragettes would be working on today. Feminism is now less of a fight and more about fixing the imbalances in the world, so that all of us benefit. A more gender-equal world would result in solving many of the current problems, including poverty, conflict and terrorism. To get there, a good starting point is challenging the sex stereotypes that we encounter in our daily lives.”

Male muscularity in comic book art and how to draw books varies anywhere athletic to realistically muscular to exaggeratedly hulking. Women can only seem to fall on the lower half of the scale, according to these how to draw books.

I know cartoons and comic books etc. aren't perfect reflections of real life, nor should they try to be. But if they want to be fantastical, surely the body types of their heroes and heroines can be just as varied and diverse as their powers and abilities. There are many different art styles for superhero comics, but almost all the superhero (and manga) art books I've read tend to make all the women the same body type in different art styles.

I feel it's more than just the unconscious biases of the creators themselves, and/or the societies they live in, it's also due to a lack of body diversity in guides for drawing women, or drawing female characters in 'genres' like Science fiction, fantasy, superhero and manga. It's difficult to draw women of different body types in part due to a lack of resources for drawing those kinds of characters.

Paraphrase from PBS Game Show: "Ultimately, Rethinking how we represent body standards isn't about depriving or censoring fiction. It's about adding to their variety and creativity to make fiction better for everyone". It'll be a slow and gradual change, yes, but we could at least try to not pass on sexist assumptions to younger generations (in this case, budding teenage/college age artists or even younger). I believe that until cartoonists have a wider and more mainstream pool of resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes (and ethnicities, religions, etc.), I think it'll be difficult for artists to draw different kinds of women. I know the internet has resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes, but throughout the past 2 decades (the 1990s and 2000s) How to Draw books were the standard, and what I read and bought to teach myself drawing skills. They're still made today, so shouldn't they reflect today's standards?

Feminism must be fought on all fronts. And in teaching young, budding artists how to draw, can we teach them how to draw all sorts of women and men, rather than just one kind of woman and dozens of kinds of men? I say yes. In 2016, there's no need for all superheroines and manga heroines to have more or less the same body type.

But what do you think? Do you think teaching budding comic book artists and cartoonists how to draw different kinds of female characters will allow change in mediums like comics, video games and cartoons to happen? It'll be interesting to see what you think.

Thank you.

Let toys be Toys FAQ
Pinkstinks FAQ
Extra Credits: True Female Characters
EC: Art Is not the opposite of Fun
EC: No Gendered Mechanics
How is Ms. Marvel Changing Media for the Better?
Men Are Generic Women Are Special
Perceptions of perfection across 18 countries
What The ‘Ideal’ Woman’s Body Looks Like In 18 Countries
Analysis of men are strong, women are pretty
ON BODY IMAGE, DIVERSITY, AND COMICS’ OUTDATED STANDARD OF BEAUTY
21st Century Suffragettes
Muscular Model MAC cosmetics
Muscular Model Mac Cosmetics Buzzfeed
Gender Stereotypes Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/04/sports-illustrated-cover-barbie-sexualisation-arguments-feminism-body-image
10 stupid arguments people use to defend comic book Sexism
Superhero Nation Talks about Superhero cliches, including designs of superheroines/female protagonists
Female Muscle sizes chart
Female Muscle Ideal Proportion
How to Draw a plus size figure

I'd be a lot more interested in all this if there was any indication that feminists might be willing to have a fair and open conversation about female abusers of children, but I haven't sen it. A few feminist organizations or websites or authors raise the issue now and then, to a response of defeaning silence from the community at large. But then we get told that ultimately dealing with issues from the point of view of helping women will ultimately help men. I don't se it. The proxy benefits of helping men by helping women are things like paternity leave, where really the purpose is helping women and it kinda helps men too.

As far as She Hulk goes, my view is, 'eh.

Here is an image of Rhonda Roussey, the kickboxing champ: Rhonda

Now here is an image of Linda Hamilton, looking realistically ripped in Terminator 2

And finally here is Demi Moore in G.I. Jane

I think that's as realistic as it gets, and whether people like the movies or not, I think they show women being very tough and effective. There are lots of examples of this, and they continue to grow. Yet this comic book and movie thing is a crisis while feminists for the most part ignore children abused at he hands of women and do not engage publicly in much analysis of it, do not address it in talks or education on abuse and when confronted on it avoid taking any responsibility. So I will care about this comic issue when I see feminists live up to their words about insisting on justice for all abuse victims.

[Tokuopolis]

It was just something I noticed in how to draw books, and with the debate and discourse over lack of female body diversity in things like video games, cartoons, comics etc. recently, I decided to talk about it.

In how to draw comic-books/superhero (and others for similar, related genres) guides, there usually aren't that many different body types for women, meaning budding cartoonists often actually lack the right sort of training to draw and create women with different body types.

For example, In the book "Creating Superheroes and Comic Book Characters" by Jim Hansen and John Burns (2005), which covers three separate art styles (2000s Thick-outline cartoon style, action cartoon superhero and Manga). In the first "chapter", there are several different designs for male characters (a chiseled superman parody, a "generously girthed sidekick", "a tall thin villain" and "a short guy"), but only one female (the "shapely sidekick" of the superman parody). Second "chapter" has several different designs for adult men (hulking, overweight or just athletic) but just one for adult women ("petite and fast"). It also includes one design for a teenage male, one design for a teenage female, one design for a preteen female and one design for a preteen male. The Manga chapter features one design each for men and women. In Cartooning (QED Learn Art) (2004), there are many more male cartoon characters than female ones. In "Awesome things to draw: Heroes and Villains" (2008), there is one female character (a Lara Croft-esque adventurer), but all the rest are male (the gladiator, greek warrior, knight, ninja, musketeer, outlaw, pirate, mad scientist, samurai, superhero, secret agent, sheriff, and Robin Hood). In the how to draw book "Superhero Madness" (2005), it mentions extreme proportions but only for male characters (a stretchy guy, a stocky dwarf and an ape-like "big guy"). It does feature non-superheroine female characters, in the form of a policewoman and an old lady, which many other superhero how to draw books lack.

I remember reading one a few years ago. It said "features and figures frequently remain the same..." and "not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones", which are some good points. When it got to how to draw a muscular woman though, it was titled "strong but sexy" and included the sentence "don't make your superheroine into a massively muscled female bodybuilder". That annoyed me. Some of the others I've seen also make similar sentences about drawing "hyper-muscular women". If (some) male superheroes get to be massively muscled male bodybuilders, why can't (some) superheroines be massively muscled female bodybuilders? It's that kind of thinking that means "features and figures frequently remain the same...", because artists struggle to draw women outside of these very specific and arbitrary standards. "Not all "gorgeous babes" are cookie cutter barbie doll clones" and not all straight(or bisexual) men have the same sexual fetishes or fantasies, so you should remember the diversity of your audience, and who you're including and excluding. Why couldn't the chapter have been titled Strong AND Sexy? Why can't these books show us how to draw hyper-muscular women? To paraphrase Rowdy C Moore "Check the internet, people. There are fetishes for everything. You will find more than a few people who find massively muscled female bodybuilders attractive"

This is not to say these books are bad, or intentionally sexist, as I believe something can contain sexist elements without being sexist as a whole. Most of these books are from a while ago, and I read them before I was fully aware of things like feminism. But in 2016, such attitudes about female character design need to fade away, and "all female characters MUST BE X" must do to. A lot of this language and lack of different designs for female characters plays into the wider societal idea that a woman/girl's worth is in her appearance, which can be seen almost everywhere.

And loads of them say the female characters in superhero fiction must always be attractive, even if she's a villain. But by whose standards are these female superheroes attractive or unattractive? There are many different sexual fetishes and standards of attractiveness across the world and across history, and even within individual countries.

You'd expect a character with a name like "She-Hulk" to look like this

(Image)

. But instead she usually looks like this

(Image)

(slightly athletic and muscular but not as much as the hulk himself

(Image)

)

Quotes about the muscular She-Hulk fanart I showed you (and other work by the same artist):




She Hulk in General:




About female body type Diversity in General:




Feminism in General quote:


Male muscularity in comic book art and how to draw books varies anywhere athletic to realistically muscular to exaggeratedly hulking. Women can only seem to fall on the lower half of the scale, according to these how to draw books.

I know cartoons and comic books etc. aren't perfect reflections of real life, nor should they try to be. But if they want to be fantastical, surely the body types of their heroes and heroines can be just as varied and diverse as their powers and abilities. There are many different art styles for superhero comics, but almost all the superhero (and manga) art books I've read tend to make all the women the same body type in different art styles.

I feel it's more than just the unconscious biases of the creators themselves, and/or the societies they live in, it's also due to a lack of body diversity in guides for drawing women, or drawing female characters in 'genres' like Science fiction, fantasy, superhero and manga. It's difficult to draw women of different body types in part due to a lack of resources for drawing those kinds of characters.

Paraphrase from PBS Game Show: "Ultimately, Rethinking how we represent body standards isn't about depriving or censoring fiction. It's about adding to their variety and creativity to make fiction better for everyone". It'll be a slow and gradual change, yes, but we could at least try to not pass on sexist assumptions to younger generations (in this case, budding teenage/college age artists or even younger). I believe that until cartoonists have a wider and more mainstream pool of resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes (and ethnicities, religions, etc.), I think it'll be difficult for artists to draw different kinds of women. I know the internet has resources for drawing women of different body types and shapes, but throughout the past 2 decades (the 1990s and 2000s) How to Draw books were the standard, and what I read and bought to teach myself drawing skills. They're still made today, so shouldn't they reflect today's standards?

Feminism must be fought on all fronts. And in teaching young, budding artists how to draw, can we teach them how to draw all sorts of women and men, rather than just one kind of woman and dozens of kinds of men? I say yes. In 2016, there's no need for all superheroines and manga heroines to have more or less the same body type.

But what do you think? Do you think teaching budding comic book artists and cartoonists how to draw different kinds of female characters will allow change in mediums like comics, video games and cartoons to happen? It'll be interesting to see what you think.

Thank you.

Let toys be Toys FAQ
Pinkstinks FAQ
Extra Credits: True Female Characters
EC: Art Is not the opposite of Fun
EC: No Gendered Mechanics
How is Ms. Marvel Changing Media for the Better?
Men Are Generic Women Are Special
Perceptions of perfection across 18 countries
What The ‘Ideal’ Woman’s Body Looks Like In 18 Countries
Analysis of men are strong, women are pretty
ON BODY IMAGE, DIVERSITY, AND COMICS’ OUTDATED STANDARD OF BEAUTY
21st Century Suffragettes
Muscular Model MAC cosmetics
Muscular Model Mac Cosmetics Buzzfeed
Gender Stereotypes Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/may/04/sports-illustrated-cover-barbie-sexualisation-arguments-feminism-body-image
10 stupid arguments people use to defend comic book Sexism
Superhero Nation Talks about Superhero cliches, including designs of superheroines/female protagonists
Female Muscle sizes chart
Female Muscle Ideal Proportion
How to Draw a plus size figure

I'd be a lot more interested in all this if there was any indication that feminists might be willing to have a fair and open conversation about female abusers of children, but I haven't sen it. A few feminist organizations or websites or authors raise the issue now and then, to a response of defeaning silence from the community at large. But then we get told that ultimately dealing with issues from the point of view of helping women will ultimately help men. I don't se it. The proxy benefits of helping men by helping women are things like paternity leave, where really the purpose is helping women and it kinda helps men too.

I'm a media analyst, aspiring comic book artist and writer and a feminist, not an expert on child abuse. I do think female abusers and the horrible things they do should be taken more seriously though.

As a comic book artist and cartoonist, I feel we can do more to educated younger artists on different body shapes and types for women. That aren't many tutorials for drawing hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women or other diverse kinds of women that the comics of the future could feature as far as I know. Some of the say you must know the rules before you break the rules, and that's very true. But surely some of these how to draw books can tell us how to break the rules when drawing women and other female characters. There are plenty of ultra-thin attractive superheroines, and hundreds of books on how to draw them. There are very few on drawing superheroines (and other fantastical characters) of other body types.

As far as She Hulk goes, my view is, 'eh.

Here is an image of Rhonda Roussey, the kickboxing champ: Rhonda

Now here is an image of Linda Hamilton, looking realistically ripped in Terminator 2

And finally here is Demi Moore in G.I. Jane

Yes, I know it's very difficult for women to get as muscular as men in real life. But Comics, video games and Cartoons and other related media are unique, their bodies aren't created by the laws of nature but by human beings. And In a comic book or cartoon, you can draw men, women, aliens, robots, and anything else you want in almost any different shape or art style.

While it would be bad if every woman in comic books was as buff and hulking as this

, it's eqaully bad in my opinion to encourage artists to draw all women as ultra-thin, tall and attractive. I always get frustrated and slightly confused when looking at mainstream "Amazonian beauties" in comics like the 'Image Comics retrospect' in the comic heroes superhero special (2013). Maybe I've been looking at female muscle fetish material too long, but you could draw women a lot more muscular than that. They say the 'image babes' are all 'boobs and biceps', but when I hear that phrase I think of a character like David C Matthew's Tetsuko

rather than 1990s Image Comics Glory

(although the new version is much more muscular

)

And I'm not the only one who thinks female body types in comics (and related mediums) could be more diverse:

From TVTropes: So You Want To Write a Superhero Comic

Superhero stories by their nature generally provide highly-idealised versions of both the male and female physique, to be fair, but there's no shortage of overly-busty superwomen out there, and showing a few different physique types (both male and female) couldn't hurt.

From the Archived Version of David C Matthews Website-FAQ "So how come your characters are all muscular women?"

comics, movies and TV are already well-supplied with women that fit that narrow fashion-model/Playboy-playmate definition of female beauty, while women that sport bodybuilder-quality muscle get short shrift.

From PBS Game/Show Why Are Video Game Bodies So Extreme

Zarya shows us that fantastical representations and diverse body types are not mutually exclusive, because what I'm asking for isn't necessarily realism. It's about scope. We have to remember whose fantasies we're including and who we're excluding

From the Bogleech Tumblr: It’s not like I don’t know where people are coming from...

A female character could now be “sexy” but also cool, intimidating and tough.
The problem is, this all basically asserted itself as the new status quo, and very rigidly. It became almost unheard of to see main female characters who weren’t thin-waisted, busty and half naked, and male characters were almost grotesque parodies of masculinity with way more muscles than actually exist in the human anatomy. Some of these trends, especially the portrayal of women, carried over into video games as they grew more life-like and intense, and became increasingly repetitive and predictable once marketing departments agreed on what “sells”....
Nobody wants it ELIMINATED, audiences are just being honest that it’s getting old, that a lot of them have interests and tastes beyond that. That maybe they also like buff, hulking female characters and slender, half-naked male characters too. People just want this stuff to even out and developers to consider the more varied demographics buying their products...
....Games and comics are THE mainstream now, they’re not a niche that has anything to fear from doddering old church groups.All fans have the right to pick apart, criticize and analyze whatever they want. If you disagree with a creator’s compliance with that, well, you can pick that apart too…but you have to accept that you’re sharing the same right to free speech and as long as fans exist, industries will keep evolving according to their ideas and feelings.

Since Superhero comics, cartoons, video games, manga, anime and other related media are escapist fiction and fantasy, surely they can show us fantasies and fictions of all kinds. There can be hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women, and other women of diverse body types and shapes within fantastic fiction..

I think that's as realistic as it gets, and whether people like the movies or not, I think they show women being very tough and effective. There are lots of examples of this, and they continue to grow. Yet this comic book and movie thing is a crisis while feminists for the most part ignore children abused at he hands of women and do not engage publicly in much analysis of it, do not address it in talks or education on abuse and when confronted on it avoid taking any responsibility. So I will care about this comic issue when I see feminists live up to their words about insisting on justice for all abuse victims.

I refer you to my first response. I wasn't talking about live-action movies with 'action girls' off which there are many (which is a good thing IMHO, keep making them), I was talking about comics, cartoons, video games and other related media, and the way we teach younger generations to draw in those kind of art-styles. I feel that (unintentionally) this restraint on not presenting ways to draw women of different body types and shapes has held us back, and prevented female characters from being as varied in body types and shapes as male ones.

actresses like Linda Hamilton are given excited coverage of the workout regimens that allow them to get a little bit "buffed" for an action-movie role like "Sarah Connor" in Terminator 2: Judgement Day, while women like six-time Ms. Olympia winner Cory Everson, with acting credits like "Atalanta" in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys are ignored by the same entertainment reporters.) And when a true muscle-woman does get a movie or TV role, it's usually as an unsavory character: a villain's henchwoman (Cory Everson again, in the Jean-Claude Van Damme vehicle Double Impact), killer android, "ex-girlfriend from hell", that sort of thing.

Of course some people feel more muscular women should get more credit and make more appearances in live-action media too:

From the Archived Version of David C Matthews Website-FAQ "So how come your characters are all muscular women?"
[To my mind, the best role a woman bodybuilder has ever had in movies or TV is Raye Hollitt's "Lonnie Jones" in Blake Edward's movie Skin Deep starring John Ritter as "Zach". Lonnie was one of Zach's lovers, and one of the few women in the movie that wasn't trying to either kill or ruin him (quite the opposite, in fact). (The movie itself plays like it was supposed to be a sequel to 10, but got rewritten because they couldn't get Dudley Moore or Bo Derek to reprise their roles. For me, Raye Hollitt was one of the few reasons I'd want to watch Skin Deep again.]

But that's just his opinion.

So, all I want is for their to be more guides on drawing different kinds of women in guides like "how to draw superhero" type books. That's all I want. Fortunately, with characters like Faith and online guides to drawing women of all kinds, that's changing.

http://www.themarysue.com/even-teenage- ... -in-games/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... characters
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ideo-games
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... th/478386/
http://web.archive.org/web/200012062035 ... nline.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200101240435 ... m/fbb.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250637 ... tream.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250656 ... ial01.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/com ... 52649650/1

[New Edom]

I'd be a lot more interested in all this if there was any indication that feminists might be willing to have a fair and open conversation about female abusers of children, but I haven't sen it. A few feminist organizations or websites or authors raise the issue now and then, to a response of defeaning silence from the community at large. But then we get told that ultimately dealing with issues from the point of view of helping women will ultimately help men. I don't se it. The proxy benefits of helping men by helping women are things like paternity leave, where really the purpose is helping women and it kinda helps men too.

I'm a media analyst, aspiring comic book artist and writer and a feminist, not an expert on child abuse. I do think female abusers and the horrible things they do should be taken more seriously though.

As a comic book artist and cartoonist, I feel we can do more to educated younger artists on different body shapes and types for women. That aren't many tutorials for drawing hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women or other diverse kinds of women that the comics of the future could feature as far as I know. Some of the say you must know the rules before you break the rules, and that's very true. But surely some of these how to draw books can tell us how to break the rules when drawing women and other female characters. There are plenty of ultra-thin attractive superheroines, and hundreds of books on how to draw them. There are very few on drawing superheroines (and other fantastical characters) of other body types.

As far as She Hulk goes, my view is, 'eh.

Here is an image of Rhonda Roussey, the kickboxing champ: Rhonda

Now here is an image of Linda Hamilton, looking realistically ripped in Terminator 2

And finally here is Demi Moore in G.I. Jane

Yes, I know it's very difficult for women to get as muscular as men in real life. But Comics, video games and Cartoons and other related media are unique, their bodies aren't created by the laws of nature but by human beings. And In a comic book or cartoon, you can draw men, women, aliens, robots, and anything else you want in almost any different shape or art style.

While it would be bad if every woman in comic books was as buff and hulking as this

, it's eqaully bad in my opinion to encourage artists to draw all women as ultra-thin, tall and attractive. I always get frustrated and slightly confused when looking at mainstream "Amazonian beauties" in comics like the 'Image Comics retrospect' in the comic heroes superhero special (2013). Maybe I've been looking at female muscle fetish material too long, but you could draw women a lot more muscular than that. They say the 'image babes' are all 'boobs and biceps', but when I hear that phrase I think of a character like David C Matthew's Tetsuko

rather than 1990s Image Comics Glory

(although the new version is much more muscular

)

And I'm not the only one who thinks female body types in comics (and related mediums) could be more diverse:

From TVTropes: So You Want To Write a Superhero Comic

Superhero stories by their nature generally provide highly-idealised versions of both the male and female physique, to be fair, but there's no shortage of overly-busty superwomen out there, and showing a few different physique types (both male and female) couldn't hurt.

From the Archived Version of David C Matthews Website-FAQ "So how come your characters are all muscular women?"

comics, movies and TV are already well-supplied with women that fit that narrow fashion-model/Playboy-playmate definition of female beauty, while women that sport bodybuilder-quality muscle get short shrift.

From PBS Game/Show Why Are Video Game Bodies So Extreme

Zarya shows us that fantastical representations and diverse body types are not mutually exclusive, because what I'm asking for isn't necessarily realism. It's about scope. We have to remember whose fantasies we're including and who we're excluding

From the Bogleech Tumblr: It’s not like I don’t know where people are coming from...

A female character could now be “sexy” but also cool, intimidating and tough.
The problem is, this all basically asserted itself as the new status quo, and very rigidly. It became almost unheard of to see main female characters who weren’t thin-waisted, busty and half naked, and male characters were almost grotesque parodies of masculinity with way more muscles than actually exist in the human anatomy. Some of these trends, especially the portrayal of women, carried over into video games as they grew more life-like and intense, and became increasingly repetitive and predictable once marketing departments agreed on what “sells”....
Nobody wants it ELIMINATED, audiences are just being honest that it’s getting old, that a lot of them have interests and tastes beyond that. That maybe they also like buff, hulking female characters and slender, half-naked male characters too. People just want this stuff to even out and developers to consider the more varied demographics buying their products...
....Games and comics are THE mainstream now, they’re not a niche that has anything to fear from doddering old church groups.All fans have the right to pick apart, criticize and analyze whatever they want. If you disagree with a creator’s compliance with that, well, you can pick that apart too…but you have to accept that you’re sharing the same right to free speech and as long as fans exist, industries will keep evolving according to their ideas and feelings.

Since Superhero comics, cartoons, video games, manga, anime and other related media are escapist fiction and fantasy, surely they can show us fantasies and fictions of all kinds. There can be hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women, and other women of diverse body types and shapes within fantastic fiction..

I think that's as realistic as it gets, and whether people like the movies or not, I think they show women being very tough and effective. There are lots of examples of this, and they continue to grow. Yet this comic book and movie thing is a crisis while feminists for the most part ignore children abused at he hands of women and do not engage publicly in much analysis of it, do not address it in talks or education on abuse and when confronted on it avoid taking any responsibility. So I will care about this comic issue when I see feminists live up to their words about insisting on justice for all abuse victims.

I refer you to my first response. I wasn't talking about live-action movies with 'action girls' off which there are many (which is a good thing IMHO, keep making them), I was talking about comics, cartoons, video games and other related media, and the way we teach younger generations to draw in those kind of art-styles. I feel that (unintentionally) this restraint on not presenting ways to draw women of different body types and shapes has held us back, and prevented female characters from being as varied in body types and shapes as male ones.

actresses like Linda Hamilton are given excited coverage of the workout regimens that allow them to get a little bit "buffed" for an action-movie role like "Sarah Connor" in Terminator 2: Judgement Day, while women like six-time Ms. Olympia winner Cory Everson, with acting credits like "Atalanta" in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys are ignored by the same entertainment reporters.) And when a true muscle-woman does get a movie or TV role, it's usually as an unsavory character: a villain's henchwoman (Cory Everson again, in the Jean-Claude Van Damme vehicle Double Impact), killer android, "ex-girlfriend from hell", that sort of thing.

Of course some people feel more muscular women should get more credit and make more appearances in live-action media too:

From the Archived Version of David C Matthews Website-FAQ "So how come your characters are all muscular women?"
[To my mind, the best role a woman bodybuilder has ever had in movies or TV is Raye Hollitt's "Lonnie Jones" in Blake Edward's movie Skin Deep starring John Ritter as "Zach". Lonnie was one of Zach's lovers, and one of the few women in the movie that wasn't trying to either kill or ruin him (quite the opposite, in fact). (The movie itself plays like it was supposed to be a sequel to 10, but got rewritten because they couldn't get Dudley Moore or Bo Derek to reprise their roles. For me, Raye Hollitt was one of the few reasons I'd want to watch Skin Deep again.]

But that's just his opinion.

So, all I want is for their to be more guides on drawing different kinds of women in guides like "how to draw superhero" type books. That's all I want. Fortunately, with characters like Faith and online guides to drawing women of all kinds, that's changing.

http://www.themarysue.com/even-teenage- ... -in-games/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... characters
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ideo-games
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... th/478386/
http://web.archive.org/web/200012062035 ... nline.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200101240435 ... m/fbb.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250637 ... tream.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250656 ... ial01.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/com ... 52649650/1

I think wanting to draw different body types is fine, and I would recommend looking at "Guns and Rockets" which shows multiple female body types in an intereting way as well as male. One of my favourite comics actually. Also if you look at "Archer" there is another good example of having a number of different body types for people. It's a reasonable ambition.

I think the feminist arguments about it are bullshit, as though every bloody thing is sexist and it cannot ever just be because some things are iconic and could be dealt with now and then as just artistic challenges rather than "ooooh women get so ojbectified" as some of those articles are bitching about. As though women never choose to be sexy on their own. Objectification theory is nonsense as far as I am concerned.

However I hope you are successful in your endeavors and enjoy success as an artist.

[Swith Witherward]

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

Alex, the best advice is already given... find a group, or go in for good counseling. Often the counselor can help you explain to your family members.

You might also want to report the rape. Many police agencies are taking these reports more seriously now. Every man that comes forward pioneers the way for the next victim. Don't let them brush you off. Unfortunately, a year has passed which means you don't have any physical evidence remaining. However, if you have a counselor, you can use the mental suffering to support it, depending on your jurisdiction.

Best of positive hopes to you. I'm so sorry that you have to endure this horrible ordeal. Nobody should go through this, male or female, and nobody should ever have to cope with it alone.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

I know these feels.
Your best bet is to contact the national mens movement for your country, they will usually have a list of contacts and resources and such.

Like Swift said, contacting the police is also something you should consider.

Friends and family can add more stress if they aren't exactly egalitarian in their outlook. You know them best. Are they likely to be empathetic, or dismissive? etc.

But if you're specifically looking for groups and orgs that'll help you instead of assuming you must be a perp or telling you to get lost, contact the mens rights movement.
National coallition for men in the US, for instance. There's usually a national central organization for each country, if there is a presence there at all.

I eventually stopped trying with other orgs because of similar experiences to you. I did manage to talk to the police at one point due to one being a family friend, but that's obviously not applicable for everyone, and I was still scared to do it in case I was blamed.
The MRM put me in contact with a bunch of people and i've talked to lots of them. Even if you'll only find online groups, it's better than nothing.

The central organization will give you a list of resources and contacts, and may offer advice and counseling directly, though this is less common. They typically operate as a legal firm and administration office for the wider movement. Sometimes they'll personally organize protests, but imo these aren't what they are best suited for compared to decentralized and issue specific organizations.

They may also have a list of personal contacts from people willing to talk to you about it in your area, other survivors usually, but this might require verification of identity and such. It varies country to country how they operate.

If your country lacks a central organization, look for university organizations and contact their chairman, they will usually have similar resources available. If the university organizations have been suppressed out of existence, the next bet is to go to the mensrights reddit and ask there for country specific resources.

If you follow that route, be sure to ask specifically for help with your problem, and not for criticisms of the status quo, arguments, and ideological frameworks.

At the moment you are feeling you can't tell anyone, and that's fairly unhealthy mate. Even if you decide to never tell your family, you should have an outlet through which to talk about it and vent the pressure so thinking about it becomes less of a panic attack.

[Galloism]

I'm sorry that that happened. Not sure NS is the best place ot talk about it, so try not to take others' responses too seriously here. Try to find a group or organization near you, make sure they are respectful of privacy and see if they will give you counseling. it can be a very tough road. it is very important to recognize that this happened and figure out how to deal with it, and the best counselors can only really help you walk through a process that will be your own. I don't know what your family is lie and if you feel safe telling them, so I would not cousnel that unless you confide in them and think it is really worth a shot. What backfired about calling the help line before?

2 lines thought I was crank calling them. Another thought it wasn't an issue, one told me "sir please keep the line open for emergencies" and the last thought I was calling to confess raping a girl.

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

[Tokuopolis]

I'm a media analyst, aspiring comic book artist and writer and a feminist, not an expert on child abuse. I do think female abusers and the horrible things they do should be taken more seriously though.

As a comic book artist and cartoonist, I feel we can do more to educated younger artists on different body shapes and types for women. That aren't many tutorials for drawing hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women or other diverse kinds of women that the comics of the future could feature as far as I know. Some of the say you must know the rules before you break the rules, and that's very true. But surely some of these how to draw books can tell us how to break the rules when drawing women and other female characters. There are plenty of ultra-thin attractive superheroines, and hundreds of books on how to draw them. There are very few on drawing superheroines (and other fantastical characters) of other body types.


Yes, I know it's very difficult for women to get as muscular as men in real life. But Comics, video games and Cartoons and other related media are unique, their bodies aren't created by the laws of nature but by human beings. And In a comic book or cartoon, you can draw men, women, aliens, robots, and anything else you want in almost any different shape or art style.

While it would be bad if every woman in comic books was as buff and hulking as this

(Image)

, it's eqaully bad in my opinion to encourage artists to draw all women as ultra-thin, tall and attractive. I always get frustrated and slightly confused when looking at mainstream "Amazonian beauties" in comics like the 'Image Comics retrospect' in the comic heroes superhero special (2013). Maybe I've been looking at female muscle fetish material too long, but you could draw women a lot more muscular than that. They say the 'image babes' are all 'boobs and biceps', but when I hear that phrase I think of a character like David C Matthew's Tetsuko

(Image)

rather than 1990s Image Comics Glory

(Image)

(although the new version is much more muscular

(Image)

)

And I'm not the only one who thinks female body types in comics (and related mediums) could be more diverse:

From TVTropes: So You Want To Write a Superhero Comic


From the Archived Version of David C Matthews Website-FAQ "So how come your characters are all muscular women?"


From PBS Game/Show Why Are Video Game Bodies So Extreme


From the Bogleech Tumblr: It’s not like I don’t know where people are coming from...


Since Superhero comics, cartoons, video games, manga, anime and other related media are escapist fiction and fantasy, surely they can show us fantasies and fictions of all kinds. There can be hyper-muscular heroines, big beautiful women, and other women of diverse body types and shapes within fantastic fiction..


I refer you to my first response. I wasn't talking about live-action movies with 'action girls' off which there are many (which is a good thing IMHO, keep making them), I was talking about comics, cartoons, video games and other related media, and the way we teach younger generations to draw in those kind of art-styles. I feel that (unintentionally) this restraint on not presenting ways to draw women of different body types and shapes has held us back, and prevented female characters from being as varied in body types and shapes as male ones.


But that's just his opinion.

So, all I want is for their to be more guides on drawing different kinds of women in guides like "how to draw superhero" type books. That's all I want. Fortunately, with characters like Faith and online guides to drawing women of all kinds, that's changing.

http://www.themarysue.com/even-teenage- ... -in-games/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... characters
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... ideo-games
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainmen ... th/478386/
http://web.archive.org/web/200012062035 ... nline.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200101240435 ... m/fbb.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250637 ... tream.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200101250656 ... ial01.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/com ... 52649650/1

I think wanting to draw different body types is fine, and I would recommend looking at "Guns and Rockets" which shows multiple female body types in an intereting way as well as male. One of my favourite comics actually. Also if you look at "Archer" there is another good example of having a number of different body types for people. It's a reasonable ambition.

I think you might mean "Love and Rockets", not "Guns and Rockets". I've heard lots of good things about it, I'll have to have a read of it one day. I've heard good things about Archer too. Thanks for reminding me!

I might get books on specifically drawing women, see what they say or teach an artist to do.

I think the feminist arguments about it are bullshit, as though every bloody thing is sexist and it cannot ever just be because some things are iconic and could be dealt with now and then as just artistic challenges rather than "ooooh women get so ojbectified" as some of those articles are bitching about. As though women never choose to be sexy on their own. Objectification theory is nonsense as far as I am concerned.

You might want to read everyday feminism's comments on sexual empowerment vs objectification.

It's a big problem, but one we can all work to solve. I personally feel that if we taught younger artists how to draw different kinds of women in comic book, manga and cartoon styles (and other related genres and styles), that the comics they make could feature different kinds of women.

However I hope you are successful in your endeavors and enjoy success as an artist.

Thank you!

[New Edom]

I think you might mean "Love and Rockets", not "Guns and Rockets". I've heard lots of good things about it, I'll have to have a read of it one day. I've heard good things about Archer too. Thanks for reminding me!

I might get books on specifically drawing women, see what they say or teach an artist to do.

I think the feminist arguments about it are bullshit, as though every bloody thing is sexist and it cannot ever just be because some things are iconic and could be dealt with now and then as just artistic challenges rather than "ooooh women get so ojbectified" as some of those articles are bitching about. As though women never choose to be sexy on their own. Objectification theory is nonsense as far as I am concerned.

You might want to read everyday feminism's comments on sexual empowerment vs objectification.

It's a big problem, but one we can all work to solve. I personally feel that if we taught younger artists how to draw different kinds of women in comic book, manga and cartoon styles (and other related genres and styles), that the comics they make could feature different kinds of women.

However I hope you are successful in your endeavors and enjoy success as an artist.

Thank you!

I'm planning on addressing objectification in a new thread focused on it next week some time. I'm taking a bit of a break from all the arguing around here and posting only lightly for a few days. (not that yo've been argumentative)
I'm suspicious of it, I'll say that, because I don't think it is nuanced enough when it comes to dealing with attraction, flirtation, and desire versus being treated unfairly. Everyday Feminism seems like a site that is more well intended than most feminist websites and so I'll take a look over the weekend, give it some thought. At other times their talk about privilege and all that makes me irritated--ideological chatter as far as I'm concerned. But I'll give the page you linked its day in court. Like I'm not sure it's a big problem so much as it is just being iconic and being open minded to other possibilities. But I'll let you know after I read the article.

You are right, I meant Love and Rockets. A good example is one of the main characters starting off as a slim young woman at he start of the series and ending up fat later on--(she's what they call a "Big Beautiful Woman" these days) and her cousin is a female wrestler who is atractive but very strong in her build. I liked it because it's a rather gritty realistic comic about people and in some ways reminds me of people I grew up with.

[Swith Witherward]

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

Fuck, no. That's the sort of misinformation that hinders male callers from reaching out. Gallo, damnit! You're basically saying, "Don't reach out for help. Typically, you'll reach an uncaring feminist." That mentality is what keeps men feeling abandoned with nowhere to turn.

Granted, you don't want to call a hotline set up specifically for women. Those aren't geared to help men. Yes, many of them are run by feminists but, if they're worth anything, they'll refer the male victim to the NSAH for sexual assault, or to a national domestic violence agency for DV.

RAINN's governing body, advisors, and other particulars are gender inclusive. It was founded by a man. Its focus is on preventing violence against people, not just against women. It supports male victims as well as female victims. It provides the National Sexual Assault Hotline number (which is not run by feminists) and a live chat.

We need more men volunteering.

Volunteers are essential to operating the National Sexual Assault Hotline, both online and over the phone.

You can volunteer to help survivors of sexual violence by lending your time and skills to a local sexual assault service provider in your area. Whether you’re answering calls to the National Sexual Assault Hotline or providing critical office support, you can make a big difference for survivors in your community.

You can also join a national team of volunteers who provide immediate support to those in need on the National Sexual Assault Online Hotline. To become a support specialist, volunteers go through an extensive training program that is currently offered in Washington, D.C. or NYC.

To learn more about becoming a rape crisis counselor, reach out to a local sexual assault provider in your area.

Finally, to any man who has been the victim of a sexual assault... you are not alone. You can find some information here. If you were abused or raped as a young person, 1in6 is a potent organization set up to help men recover. They provide a free and anonymous Online Online Peer Support Group which meets every Monday and Wednesday.

Followup to that:
The National Domestic Violence Hotline has "highly-trained advocates available 24/7 to talk confidentially with anyone experiencing domestic violence, seeking resources or information, or questioning unhealthy aspects of their relationship". This is one of the agencies we referred men and boys to, and we have not heard anything negative about their experiences with them. Those numbers are: 1-800-799-7233 and 1-800-787-3224 (TTY). If anyone does have a documented negative experience with them, please let me know. We'll cease to refer people there.

[Galloism]

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

Fuck, no. That's the sort of misinformation that hinders male callers from reaching out. Gallo, damnit! You're basically saying, "Don't reach out for help. Typically, you'll reach an uncaring feminist." That mentality is what keeps men feeling abandoned with nowhere to turn.

Granted, you don't want to call a hotline set up specifically for women. Those aren't geared to help men. Yes, many of them are run by feminists but, if they're worth anything, they'll refer the male victim to the NSAH for sexual assault, or to a national domestic violence agency for DV.

RAINN's governing body, advisors, and other particulars are gender inclusive. It was founded by a man. Its focus is on preventing violence against people, not just against women. It supports male victims as well as female victims. It provides the National Sexual Assault Hotline number (which is not run by feminists) and a live chat.

We need more men volunteering.

Volunteers are essential to operating the National Sexual Assault Hotline, both online and over the phone.

You can volunteer to help survivors of sexual violence by lending your time and skills to a local sexual assault service provider in your area. Whether you’re answering calls to the National Sexual Assault Hotline or providing critical office support, you can make a big difference for survivors in your community.

You can also join a national team of volunteers who provide immediate support to those in need on the National Sexual Assault Online Hotline. To become a support specialist, volunteers go through an extensive training program that is currently offered in Washington, D.C. or NYC.

To learn more about becoming a rape crisis counselor, reach out to a local sexual assault provider in your area.

Finally, to any man who has been the victim of a sexual assault... you are not alone. You can find some information here. If you were abused or raped as a young person, 1in6 is a potent organization set up to help men recover. They provide a free and anonymous Online Online Peer Support Group which meets every Monday and Wednesday.

Followup to that:
The National Domestic Violence Hotline has "highly-trained advocates available 24/7 to talk confidentially with anyone experiencing domestic violence, seeking resources or information, or questioning unhealthy aspects of their relationship". This is one of the agencies we referred men and boys to, and we have not heard anything negative about their experiences with them. Those numbers are: 1-800-799-7233 and 1-800-787-3224 (TTY). If anyone does have a documented negative experience with them, please let me know. We'll cease to refer people there.

It's really not misinformation when it's scientifically studied and verified. Did you read the source?

[New Edom]

Your experience is not unique.

For men who suffer DV, typically at a normal helpline, they are either mocked or accused of being an abuser. This is probably doubly true for men who are victims of sexual violence.

Keep in mind, these hotlines are typically run by feminists, whose worldview is somewhat clouded by their sexist approach to rape and domestic violence. I wish I had better answers for you, but unfortunately, I do not.

http://wordpress.clarku.edu/dhines/file ... ictims.pdf

Fuck, no. That's the sort of misinformation that hinders male callers from reaching out. Gallo, damnit! You're basically saying, "Don't reach out for help. Typically, you'll reach an uncaring feminist." That mentality is what keeps men feeling abandoned with nowhere to turn.

Granted, you don't want to call a hotline set up specifically for women. Those aren't geared to help men. Yes, many of them are run by feminists but, if they're worth anything, they'll refer the male victim to the NSAH for sexual assault, or to a national domestic violence agency for DV.

RAINN's governing body, advisors, and other particulars are gender inclusive. It was founded by a man. Its focus is on preventing violence against people, not just against women. It supports male victims as well as female victims. It provides the National Sexual Assault Hotline number (which is not run by feminists) and a live chat.

We need more men volunteering.

Volunteers are essential to operating the National Sexual Assault Hotline, both online and over the phone.

You can volunteer to help survivors of sexual violence by lending your time and skills to a local sexual assault service provider in your area. Whether you’re answering calls to the National Sexual Assault Hotline or providing critical office support, you can make a big difference for survivors in your community.

You can also join a national team of volunteers who provide immediate support to those in need on the National Sexual Assault Online Hotline. To become a support specialist, volunteers go through an extensive training program that is currently offered in Washington, D.C. or NYC.

To learn more about becoming a rape crisis counselor, reach out to a local sexual assault provider in your area.

Finally, to any man who has been the victim of a sexual assault... you are not alone. You can find some information here. If you were abused or raped as a young person, 1in6 is a potent organization set up to help men recover. They provide a free and anonymous Online Online Peer Support Group which meets every Monday and Wednesday.

Followup to that:
The National Domestic Violence Hotline has "highly-trained advocates available 24/7 to talk confidentially with anyone experiencing domestic violence, seeking resources or information, or questioning unhealthy aspects of their relationship". This is one of the agencies we referred men and boys to, and we have not heard anything negative about their experiences with them. Those numbers are: 1-800-799-7233 and 1-800-787-3224 (TTY). If anyone does have a documented negative experience with them, please let me know. We'll cease to refer people there.

This is a sad fact: you're one of exactly three feminists I've encountered online who responds with more than platituds about this sort of thing. I sent him private information including three links I found led to helpful resources, which I hope helped, along with explanations. He thanked me for that. But I appreciate you writing this.

I don't blame Gallo though. We often get really hostile responses. In fact I think for me personally and I suspect for him and others, it is what led us away from supporting feminism, this lack of sympathy and hostility.

I have a lot of respect for RAINN even where I disagree with them on some particular anlyses of issues or some data, but I generally rspect heir methods and approach. But this issue is controversial within feminism and it does need to be recognized as such.