The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Costa Fierro]

Here is the problem. All it takes is a high-priced lawyer to persuade an overworked judge that ones rich client can be rehabilitated...

And suddenly you have an interesting pattern: Rich people are perpetually rehabilitateable whereas the poor can never be rehabilitated.

What does a high priced lawyer do?

Charge more for fees so they can convince the judge to grant the criminal a lesser sentence.

[Romakivila]

Possibly, but I'd suggest that if someone cannot be rehabilitated, indefinite incarceration should be an option.

Here is the problem. All it takes is a high-priced lawyer to persuade an overworked judge that ones rich client can be rehabilitated...

And suddenly you have an interesting pattern: Rich people are perpetually rehabilitateable whereas the poor can never be rehabilitated.

Stop with the An-syn/com/soc crap. Believe it or not rich people can go to jail too, mind blowing I know. I'm a case such as his, were he had a prior conviction of 3 charges of felony rape, he wouldn't be getting out of the court with a slap on the wrist. His actions were despicable, but it'd be a waste of money to keep him in jail if he is unlikely to offend again.

[Natapoc]

This was NOT a drunken hookup. This is not part of "party culture". This is rape culture and you are perpetuating it by repeating the narrative of the rapist. Have you read her perspective on what happened yet?

She made it very clear that this was NOT consensual in any way.

Here is her side of the story:

You could at least read it before repeating the rapists lawyer approved narrative.
*snips heart-wrenching tragedy*

I read that and it broke my heart. Even worse is the rapist's father trying to cover his sons ass. We all know where the kid learned his entitlement from.

But I suggest abandoning this thread pernamently. The MRA's, antifeminists, gamergaters, and "egalitarians" have made this thread hostile to feminist discussion and turned it into a platform to angrily shout at the clouds and their straw feminists. Honestly, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked as it hasn't served its purpose in months (heck, I haven't had an actual discussion here in forever).

Its best to not post in this thread for your own sanity and to not cater to these people.

You are right, and I usually don't check here. I just could not stand everyone here repeating the rapist's cover story as if it was fact without a response. Luckily there are still some people on this forum who have not baught in to the hate.

[New Edom]

Holy shit that story is fucked up. A blatant fucking fail in our justice system.

Plea bargains for first time offenses are not uncommon. Especially in cases like this where the irresponsible conduct is in the context of a possible misunderstanding. The problem is that in this sort of case it's his word against hers about the context, so it's really down to the fact that at a certain point while they were making out according to him, he crossed a line. It's very hard to say in this case how much intent there was, etc.

[New Edom]

This was NOT a drunken hookup. This is not part of "party culture". This is rape culture and you are perpetuating it by repeating the narrative of the rapist. Have you read her perspective on what happened yet?

She made it very clear that this was NOT consensual in any way.

Here is her side of the story:

You could at least read it before repeating the rapists lawyer approved narrative.
*snips heart-wrenching tragedy*

I read that and it broke my heart. Even worse is the rapist's father trying to cover his sons ass. We all know where the kid learned his entitlement from.

But I suggest abandoning this thread pernamently. The MRA's, antifeminists, gamergaters, and "egalitarians" have made this thread hostile to feminist discussion and turned it into a platform to angrily shout at the clouds and their straw feminists. Honestly, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked as it hasn't served its purpose in months (heck, I haven't had an actual discussion here in forever).

Its best to not post in this thread for your own sanity and to not cater to these people.

A few things Natopoc.

1. I did read her testimony. What I did not read was every detail said by the lawyers, probation officers, the evidence, etc.

2. I had actually said that drunken hook ups make non consenting sex more likely. Drink will increase poor judgement, misinterpretation of events, and confusion.

3. I had said that rape trials of this kind are difficult because it is one person's word against another's.

Like Galloism, I got no justice myself, in fact got the opposite. I've talked to guys who have been arrested or beaten up--because they were counter-accused by their abusers or by others around them. I dont' have any sympathy for all this self righteousness. I do not know the woman, was not a witness, have no idea how much of her story is really true because I don't give women a free pass on anything they say with tears in their eyes. However I think that the rules are clear: the guy was having sex with her while she was unconscious, regardless of what happened before that. That's good enough for me. It will stain the man's record for the rest of his life. It's a real consequence.

[Wallenburg]

Holy shit that story is fucked up. A blatant fucking fail in our justice system.

Plea bargains for first time offenses are not uncommon. Especially in cases like this where the irresponsible conduct is in the context of a possible misunderstanding. The problem is that in this sort of case it's his word against hers about the context, so it's really down to the fact that at a certain point while they were making out according to him, he crossed a line. It's very hard to say in this case how much intent there was, etc.

There was no plea bargain.

[Gauthier]

Now they should monitor this guy and his dad to see if they pull an Ethan Couch.

[New Edom]

Now they should monitor this guy and his dad to see if they pull an Ethan Couch.

The Couch family had a criminal history. It's kind of different.

[Philjia]

I read that and it broke my heart. Even worse is the rapist's father trying to cover his sons ass. We all know where the kid learned his entitlement from.

But I suggest abandoning this thread pernamently. The MRA's, antifeminists, gamergaters, and "egalitarians" have made this thread hostile to feminist discussion and turned it into a platform to angrily shout at the clouds and their straw feminists. Honestly, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked as it hasn't served its purpose in months (heck, I haven't had an actual discussion here in forever).

Its best to not post in this thread for your own sanity and to not cater to these people.

A few things Natopoc.

1. I did read her testimony. What I did not read was every detail said by the lawyers, probation officers, the evidence, etc.

2. I had actually said that drunken hook ups make non consenting sex more likely. Drink will increase poor judgement, misinterpretation of events, and confusion.

3. I had said that rape trials of this kind are difficult because it is one person's word against another's.

Like Galloism, I got no justice myself, in fact got the opposite. I've talked to guys who have been arrested or beaten up--because they were counter-accused by their abusers or by others around them. I dont' have any sympathy for all this self righteousness. I do not know the woman, was not a witness, have no idea how much of her story is really true because I don't give women a free pass on anything they say with tears in their eyes. However I think that the rules are clear: the guy was having sex with her while she was unconscious, regardless of what happened before that. That's good enough for me. It will stain the man's record for the rest of his life. It's a real consequence.

So is a custodial sentente. The case is cut and dry, he broke the law, and his liberty should be forfeit.

[Philjia]

I read that and it broke my heart. Even worse is the rapist's father trying to cover his sons ass. We all know where the kid learned his entitlement from.

But I suggest abandoning this thread pernamently. The MRA's, antifeminists, gamergaters, and "egalitarians" have made this thread hostile to feminist discussion and turned it into a platform to angrily shout at the clouds and their straw feminists. Honestly, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked as it hasn't served its purpose in months (heck, I haven't had an actual discussion here in forever).

Its best to not post in this thread for your own sanity and to not cater to these people.

You are right, and I usually don't check here. I just could not stand everyone here repeating the rapist's cover story as if it was fact without a response. Luckily there are still some people on this forum who have not baught in to the hate.

I don't buy into any hate. I don't think there's anything wrong with feminism. I think women are still subject to negative discrimination in many areas. What I don't buy into is your blatantly false "victim" narrative. Society is unequal. That needs to be fixed, with an even handed, liberal, and just approach, and not reactionary authoritarianism as you and other feminists propose.

[Iridencia]

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

You're missing the point. Again.

When you go around trumpeting that male victims of rape by females are approximately as common as unicorns, you set an obscenely high level of proof in the mind of the police who will hear the case, prosecutors who will try the case, and especially juries who will reach a verdict on the case.

These statistics are a slam dunk and cover decades of studies. You refuse to accept them because of ideological blindness.

This kind of thinking - that you promote - is why men who are victims of rape by women are often threatened with arrest for filing a false report when they go to police. This is why prosecutors often refuse to take the case. This is why juries overwhelmingly vote to acquit if they do. This is why judges give female sexual offenders extremely low sentences or probation. They don't believe it really happened because they're told it almost never does. If you're told something almost never happens, you'll approach it with double the skepticism of things you hear happen commonly.

You may not desire to support rapists. You may not even think you are supporting rapists. However, it doesn't change the fact that are supporting rapists.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

Then stop working so hard to deny them justice.

You may not think you are, but you are.

This I think is one of the more important posts here.

Nata, when you say things like, "I totally support male rape victims, I just think that they're extremely rare and you're making up numbers for how high it is," I don't see that as any better than someone saying, "I totally support female rape victims, so long as they weren't doing anything stupid like wearing a short skirt or walking alone at night" or "I don't think all women lie about being raped, just most." One of the very core concepts on the hypothesis of "rape culture" that you and similar feminists are so concerned about is that rape need not necessarily be explicitly condoned but that unreasonable excuses are constantly made on behalf of minimizing the seriousness of the crime and making it more difficult for victims to get justice. There is little you can do to belittle and minimize a crime more than to act as if it is less common than it actually is - if a crime is seen as less common, less is done to fix it, and it becomes worse.

I understand why you might feel insulted over someone doubting where your heart is regarding an issue, nobody takes kindly to being told that they condone something terrible, but words are cheap. You've got to step back and see whether or not you're doing the very same things you've been decrying this whole time. If somebody presents evidence of a claim, either demonstrate why the evidence does not point to that conclusion, or accept that the evidence is sound and change your worldview. "I just can't see it being like that," is not a counterpoint. If you really do have legitimate reasons for doubting the number given for the amount of female-on-male rape, by all means, present them. Not this, "Oh, this thread is full of a bunch of bullies who just hate feminism and refuse to listen to me! If you won't see it my way, I'm not even going to bother!" nonsense: This is the attitude that has gotten feminism it's recent bad reputation in the first place. As women, where exactly would you and I be if instead of her famous, "Ain't I A Woman?" speech, Sojourner Truth's response was to storm off stage ranting about how the immature sexists in the crowd will never listen to reason so why bother giving it? When you refuse to give answers, the only logical conclusion is that you don't have answers.

Enough with the, "You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong!" Give us the, "You're wrong, here's why with some objective data..." You've just done it right now with this recent rape case, I have zero doubt you should be able to do it when it comes to this male rape # issue if it's within the realm of truth.

[New Edom]

A few things Natopoc.

1. I did read her testimony. What I did not read was every detail said by the lawyers, probation officers, the evidence, etc.

2. I had actually said that drunken hook ups make non consenting sex more likely. Drink will increase poor judgement, misinterpretation of events, and confusion.

3. I had said that rape trials of this kind are difficult because it is one person's word against another's.

Like Galloism, I got no justice myself, in fact got the opposite. I've talked to guys who have been arrested or beaten up--because they were counter-accused by their abusers or by others around them. I dont' have any sympathy for all this self righteousness. I do not know the woman, was not a witness, have no idea how much of her story is really true because I don't give women a free pass on anything they say with tears in their eyes. However I think that the rules are clear: the guy was having sex with her while she was unconscious, regardless of what happened before that. That's good enough for me. It will stain the man's record for the rest of his life. It's a real consequence.

So is a custodial sentence. The case is cut and dry, he broke the law, and his liberty should be forfeit.

And he has been.

[Philjia]

Social reforms I would pass to improve gender equality:

1. On the control and reduction of prostitution
I don't like prostitution, and would like to see it made as rare as possible. However, I'm also realistic, and so accept that regardless of what the government does the laws of supply and demand will still operate and prostitutes will exist. However, if we control it as follows, negative effects can be mitigated:

a) Introduce licensing, inspection, health checks, mandatory condom use etc. Basically, we make sure prostitution conforms to certain standards.
b) Massive expansion of social welfare to reduce instances of prostitution, especially unlicensed prostitution.
c) Crack down on unlicensed and trafficked prostitution, and provide any assistance necessary to the prostitutes.
d) Add prostitution and prostitution law to sex education, and impress on students the importance of buying their sex from a reputable dealer, as well as why being a prostitute is not an attractive career choice. Not exactly savoury, but neither is legalising prostitution in the first place.

2. On rape and sexual assault
This is difficult, as there's no particularly good way to please everyone; that is, one cannot protect the alleged victim, perpetrator, and the interests of the police and prosecution service at the same time. Conviction rates are clearly far too low, but without compromising the rule of law I have no idea what can be done about that. The best I can do is mandate that certain support services be tendered to victims unless the defense can prove beyond all doubt that no rape took place. In the event of any ambiguity, services will not be withdrawn. Education is always nice, but given that consent is generally at the center of sex education anyway I doubt much can be done there.

3. On wage inequality
Given the laws that already exist, creating any other legislation at employment level is unlikely to do much good. What needs to change is the education system and the culture around parenting, but even if this happens there will probably still be wage inequality. In education, we still need a more gender neutral approach to employment, at an early level. Pupils should be allowed to decide their career path based on what they like. In regard to parental leave, there needs to be a set level of parental leave to be divided between parents as desired. Another little idea I have is encouraging increased anonymity in job applications; employers will only find out candidates race and sex at the final interview stage. Thus, discrimination, positive or negative, can be reduced, although not entirely.

[Costa Fierro]

Social reforms I would pass to improve gender equality:

1. On the control and reduction of prostitution
I don't like prostitution, and would like to see it made as rare as possible. However, I'm also realistic, and so accept that regardless of what the government does the laws of supply and demand will still operate and prostitutes will exist. However, if we control it as follows, negative effects can be mitigated:

a) Introduce licensing, inspection, health checks, mandatory condom use etc. Basically, we make sure prostitution conforms to certain standards.
b) Massive expansion of social welfare to reduce instances of prostitution, especially unlicensed prostitution.
c) Crack down on unlicensed and trafficked prostitution, and provide any assistance necessary to the prostitutes.
d) Add prostitution and prostitution law to sex education, and impress on students the importance of buying their sex from a reputable dealer, as well as why being a prostitute is not an attractive career choice. Not exactly savoury, but neither is legalising prostitution in the first place.

So basically this is "well I don't like it, therefore I'd like it as close to banned as possible".

What needs to change is the education system and the culture around parenting, but even if this happens there will probably still be wage inequality.

What aspects of the culture around parenting need to change?

In education, we still need a more gender neutral approach to employment, at an early level.

So hiring more male teachers?

Pupils should be allowed to decide their career path based on what they like.

They don't do that anyway?

In regard to parental leave, there needs to be a set level of parental leave to be divided between parents as desired.

Already happens where I live, as parental leave can be split between the mother and father.

Another little idea I have is encouraging increased anonymity in job applications; employers will only find out candidates race and sex at the final interview stage. Thus, discrimination, positive or negative, can be reduced, although not entirely.

I think most employers would get a general idea of who is what race or sex based on the names, not to mention that employers could get to the final interview stage and still deny employment there.

[Philjia]

Social reforms I would pass to improve gender equality:

1. On the control and reduction of prostitution
I don't like prostitution, and would like to see it made as rare as possible. However, I'm also realistic, and so accept that regardless of what the government does the laws of supply and demand will still operate and prostitutes will exist. However, if we control it as follows, negative effects can be mitigated:

a) Introduce licensing, inspection, health checks, mandatory condom use etc. Basically, we make sure prostitution conforms to certain standards.
b) Massive expansion of social welfare to reduce instances of prostitution, especially unlicensed prostitution.
c) Crack down on unlicensed and trafficked prostitution, and provide any assistance necessary to the prostitutes.
d) Add prostitution and prostitution law to sex education, and impress on students the importance of buying their sex from a reputable dealer, as well as why being a prostitute is not an attractive career choice. Not exactly savoury, but neither is legalising prostitution in the first place.

So basically this is "well I don't like it, therefore I'd like it as close to banned as possible".

With good reason. It's often exploitative and dangerous. I want to target those aspects specifically. You can't just ban prostitution, as many feminists seem to think.

What needs to change is the education system and the culture around parenting, but even if this happens there will probably still be wage inequality.

What aspects of the culture around parenting need to change?

Parents will still treat boys and girls differently from a fairly early age. Not that I have any idea how we can ethically encourage them not to.

In education, we still need a more gender neutral approach to employment, at an early level.

So hiring more male teachers?

Certainly at a primary level, although this does have the circular issue of not many men wanting to go into primary education precisely because it's not especially seen as a man's job.

Pupils should be allowed to decide their career path based on what they like.

They don't do that anyway?

Theoretically. I meant more in the sense of the reasons that mean the people who studied construction at my school were all boys and the ones who studied child development were all girls.

In regard to parental leave, there needs to be a set level of parental leave to be divided between parents as desired.

Already happens where I live, as parental leave can be split between the mother and father.

Good. It should exist in more places.

Another little idea I have is encouraging increased anonymity in job applications; employers will only find out candidates race and sex at the final interview stage. Thus, discrimination, positive or negative, can be reduced, although not entirely.

I think most employers would get a general idea of who is what race or sex based on the names, not to mention that employers could get to the final interview stage and still deny employment there.

The point was taking the names off the personal statements and CVs. Not going to help at final interview stage, but that's not the point.

[Iridencia]

When it comes to actually helping women that may be disadvantaged in the Western world, my primary concerns come from certain minority cultures and communities that are more prone to enforcing harsh gender roles than the rest of the larger society. Nobody replied this post I made some time ago, but I reiterate the overall point: What can be done to encourage better social progress for girls in certain minority groups in ways that avoiding coming across as trying to disrespect culture out of sheer xenophobia?

Anecdotally, I have first-hand experienced the rather jarring differences that can occur between the way "majority" groups teach their girls versus "minority" groups. Obviously there are no absolutes and we should avoid stereotyping, but one of the more infuriating memories I have from growing up is visiting my dad's house and having one of his female friends boldly telling me that because of "Adam and Eve" women will never be equal to men (which she demonstrate by simply pointing to my dad and saying, "I'll never be equal to that!" with zero elaboration as to just what "that" was) but "what [they] have to offer is equal." She thought what she was saying was empowering, but given everything I had been taught by my mother's side of the family ("men and women are equal, and every individual has their own strengths and weaknesses"), to me it just came across as a sickening display of simultaneous self-loathing and denial.

In my eyes, the most blatant of true sexism against women comes typically not from "the system," but from the home, which is a significantly stickier environment to try and meddle with.

[Costa Fierro]

With good reason. It's often exploitative and dangerous. I want to target those aspects specifically. You can't just ban prostitution, as many feminists seem to think.

It's only exploitative and dangerous when it's illegal.

Parents will still treat boys and girls differently from a fairly early age. Not that I have any idea how we can ethically encourage them not to.

And? At an early age, children basically shit themselves constantly and don't even have a vague concept of the world around them until they reach, at the very least, school age. So who gives a shit if parents give them gender appropriate toys and clothing? I don't, and I doubt that someone who doesn't have children of their own should either.

Certainly at a primary level, although this does have the circular issue of not many men wanting to go into primary education precisely because it's not especially seen as a man's job.

So increase pay and benefits. Make teaching the respectable profession it should be.

Theoretically. I meant more in the sense of the reasons that mean the people who studied construction at my school were all boys and the ones who studied child development were all girls.

And what's the problem with that? One caters to the natural body abilities of males and the other to the nurturing qualities of females.

The point was taking the names off the personal statements and CVs. Not going to help at final interview stage, but that's not the point.

So your plan is to simply shift discrimination further down the employment process?

[Ostroeuropa]

When it comes to actually helping women that may be disadvantaged in the Western world, my primary concerns come from certain minority cultures and communities that are more prone to enforcing harsh gender roles than the rest of the larger society. Nobody replied this post I made some time ago, but I reiterate the overall point: What can be done to encourage better social progress for girls in certain minority groups in ways that avoiding coming across as trying to disrespect culture out of sheer xenophobia?

Anecdotally, I have first-hand experienced the rather jarring differences that can occur between the way "majority" groups teach their girls versus "minority" groups. Obviously there are no absolutes and we should avoid stereotyping, but one of the more infuriating memories I have from growing up is visiting my dad's house and having one of his female friends boldly telling me that because of "Adam and Eve" women will never be equal to men (which she demonstrate by simply pointing to my dad and saying, "I'll never be equal to that!" with zero elaboration as to just what "that" was) but "what [they] have to offer is equal." She thought what she was saying was empowering, but given everything I had been taught by my mother's side of the family ("men and women are equal, and every individual has their own strengths and weaknesses"), to me it just came across as a sickening display of simultaneous self-loathing and denial.

In my eyes, the most blatant of true sexism against women comes typically not from "the system," but from the home, which is a significantly stickier environment to try and meddle with.

From an Mens Rights standpoint, i'd say the problem is potentially tied into mass incarceration, and to demonstrate why i'll ask you to try and consider the world from a minority womans perspective.
She'll have grown up with the two sexes being roughly equal in number at the start.
The cull begins and men begin being carted off or dropping like flies. Her friends and her will have got with men over time, hopefully ones they love, and started families, the guys will be working (Usuallly the women too.) and providing and such, but over time she'll see more and more of her community lose more and more of their partners.

What happens when one of them goes to jail?
What does she see?

She now sees a woman without a man who starts struggling, struggling more so than normal, because of economies of scale, two incomes being better than one, etc.

This isn't just once or twice, but a disproportionately large amount of the community. There's less men to go around and the women who do have a man are, from their perspective and from the perspective of those who have lost their man, leagues ahead in terms of quality of life and stress levels.

The mere presence of the man (A second income) is enough to make things seem magnitudes easier, and the consistent impression is given that women cannot handle this alone. (Despite the truth being that anyone alone would struggle under poverty as a minority single parent, it isn't seen as much for single males to raise the kids while mom is in jail, for instance.)

The fact her man has managed to avoid getting shot, going to jail, and kept a job, makes him a godsend. Without him she couldn't cope. (She probably could. I find people tend to underestimate their tenacity in poverty, but it won't change her impression of him.)

None of this need play out consciously. But she'll notice that in her community, a woman without a man doesn't seem to have her shit together as well as one with a man. Her gratitude to him will also influence the power dynamic of the relationship.
The minority men who are dead or in jail aren't as visible to her, and won't influence her view as much except in the sense of "My man is great compared to those ones." which further ingratiates her to him. If she sees herself as average, and her man as above average, it's no surprise she views herself as inferior, and almost definitionally her man will be above average to her, because women aren't being culled in a similar manner, and because she's aware of lots of other single women and not as many single men.

Add these pressures to good old divorce rates and the picture will be painted clear as day. Women without men = struggling and not coping so well.

I'd say the most immediate remedy is to end mass incarceration, followed by stronger anti-poverty measures.
While just the mass incarceration might alleviate the sexist attitudes by getting rid of this picture she paints herself, the anti-poverty measures will also help in outlier cases.

Alternatively, if your goal was just gender equality of any kind, begin the mass incarceration of women, and make them more culturally acceptable targets for violence and crime, and I expect you'd see the dynamics balance out. But that would be dumb.

She thinks men are superior in part because their pay packet has disproportionate effects.
A woman can earn 10 bucks, but she's less than half as cosey as a man and a woman earning 20, and its noticable.

Throw on top of the mere "struggling to survive" shit the element of danger in the community and mens physical strength compared to women, and the (Not guaranteed, but noticable) fact that children without a father will end up more prone to crime/failing school/problems etc (Which she will attribute to "The fathers influence." rather than "A second set of eyes and hands.") and you've got plenty to account for the mentality being more prevalent.

But basically, it's cos poverty.

[Tahar Joblis]

This is difficult, as there's no particularly good way to please everyone; that is, one cannot protect the alleged victim, perpetrator, and the interests of the police and prosecution service at the same time. Conviction rates are clearly far too low, but without compromising the rule of law I have no idea what can be done about that. The best I can do is mandate that certain support services be tendered to victims unless the defense can prove beyond all doubt that no rape took place. In the event of any ambiguity, services will not be withdrawn. Education is always nice, but given that consent is generally at the center of sex education anyway I doubt much can be done there.

Conviction rates for rape are not actually low, and claiming that they are low is harmful.

The conviction rates for rape and other sex crimes are not appreciably low compared to anything else. The attrition from report to prosecution are also not appreciably low compared to other crimes. The reporting rate for female victims is also not unusually low. Most crimes of any kind are not reported, and do not lead to a conviction.

In the case of male victims of female perpetrators, the official reporting rate is close to zero for non-statutory forms of rape, with male victims generally being dismissed by police immediately and relatively few statutory rape cases with male victims and female perpetrators being prosecuted or leading to convictions.

Traditional feminist narratives about how rape is treated by the criminal justice system are generally false, but become true if we invert the genders used in those narratives.

To the recent conversation of the Stanford case...

It is very ironic to look at the outrage circulating over the six month sentence in the context of the currently active "women's prisons" thread, where the feminist side of the argument is saying a lot of things like:

I agree, we should abolish the conventional prison system. The current "justice" system is arbitrary, ineffective, classist, and racist. No one of any gender should be in prison.

What happened in this case was not that a rapist got off the hook. What happened was that a man who fingered a passed-out woman was convicted for that act, and given a sentence that would be not all unusual for the rare cases in which a female rapist is actually convicted of anything, for reasons that are applied by judges in deciding sentences for non-sexual crimes.

[Tahar Joblis]

The point was taking the names off the personal statements and CVs. Not going to help at final interview stage, but that's not the point.

So your plan is to simply shift discrimination further down the employment process?

Discrimination eliminated at one step of the process is not necessarily going to be re-introduced later.

I think if people have 10 units of bias in the interview step, and the CV step of filtration is changed to eliminate 10 units of bias, you're not going to see a sudden jump to 20 units of bias in the interview step.

TBH, I think having the first meaningful filtration step being carried out on anonymized CVs / resumes is going to help - with more than just sexism (of any variety). It also helps with a number of other forms of discrimination - racism, xenophobia (ethnism if you will), even to some degree classism, as names / pictures carry weak class indicators in addition to ethnic, racial, and gender identity markers.

[The balkens]

This was NOT a drunken hookup. This is not part of "party culture". This is rape culture and you are perpetuating it by repeating the narrative of the rapist. Have you read her perspective on what happened yet?

She made it very clear that this was NOT consensual in any way.

Here is her side of the story:

You could at least read it before repeating the rapists lawyer approved narrative.
*snips heart-wrenching tragedy*

I read that and it broke my heart. Even worse is the rapist's father trying to cover his sons ass. We all know where the kid learned his entitlement from.

But I suggest abandoning this thread pernamently. The MRA's, antifeminists, gamergaters, and "egalitarians" have made this thread hostile to feminist discussion and turned it into a platform to angrily shout at the clouds and their straw feminists. Honestly, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked as it hasn't served its purpose in months (heck, I haven't had an actual discussion here in forever).

Its best to not post in this thread for your own sanity and to not cater to these people.

If those are insults then surely you can do better.

[Natapoc]

Because his sense of entitlement to women's bodies did not happen in a vacuum. Factors ranging from white privilege to male privilege to class privilege and rape culture all merged together to permit this obscene narrative of perpetrator as innocent victim.

Oh, oh God...

Please don't go full SJW, Natapoc.

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

[New Edom]

Oh, oh God...

Please don't go full SJW, Natapoc.

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

You know, over two pages of responses to your previous article which included some addressing of legal concerns, and you haven't really responded with anything other than emotional reations. Will you actually respond to a discussion, or do you just want people to share your outrage?

[Costa Fierro]

You know, over two pages of responses to your previous article which included some addressing of legal concerns, and you haven't really responded with anything other than emotional reations. Will you actually respond to a discussion, or do you just want people to share your outrage?

The latter. Because appeal to emotion is easier to engage in than a reasoned and logical discussion.

[Philjia]

Oh, oh God...

Please don't go full SJW, Natapoc.

Call me an SJW all you like, it's the truth.

Here is an example: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2664945


Two very similar cases. Being rich and white was a huge advantage for this rapist.


From the article:

"When Cory Batey was a 19-year-old standout football player at Vanderbilt, he raped an unconscious woman. The ample evidence, including security cameras showing the unconscious woman being carried into a dorm room and cellphone photos and videos of the sexual assault, was clear — Cory Batey sexually assaulted the woman. In April, a jury found Batey guilty of three felony counts including aggravated rape and two counts of aggravated sexual battery.

He was immediately remanded into custody and must serve a mandatory minimum sentence of 15 to 25 years in prison."

"That's what makes the case of Brock Turner, a 19-year-old standout swimmer at Stanford who raped an unconscious woman, all the more infuriating. As was the case with Batey, ample evidence existed that Turner was guilty. Eyewitnesses actually caught him in the act as he sexually assaulted an unconscious woman behind a dumpster. A jury agreed and Turner was found guilty of multiple felony rape charges. Turner, though, was given a six-month jail sentence and told he could be released on good behavior in as little as three months. He won't even go to an actual prison, but will remain in the local jail during that time."

This illustrates my point about the intersection of rape culture and white male privileged.

It's not white male privilege, at least not primarily. It's class privilege. Regardless, women get shorter sentences on average for the same crimes as men.