The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Wallenburg]

That's what I said. You have constructed a system in which you can justify further demeaning Natapoc no matter what they say on the matter.

When natapoc acknowledges the data, and at least admits its legitimacy, then I will forgive her.

Until then, she's supporting a sexist narrative and trying to protect rapists and domestic abusers that happen to be female, no matter how much "sympathy" she has.

She's like those republicans who feel so sorry for women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy and work tirelessly to cut off her access to abortion.

Yeah, we don't buy your tears. Shape up your actions, and your tears will be respected.

Well, then that is different. I can accept that.

[Fin Dovah Junaar]

- Snip -

Okay, so I don't know if you're bullshitting, or what since I just got in here.

But does she have any evidence, is this going to a court? Etc?

Whats the run down.

[Des-Bal]

Okay, so I don't know if you're bullshitting, or what since I just got in here.

But does she have any evidence, is this going to a court? Etc?

Whats the run down.

Trial's over, probation officials suggested 6 months was an appropriate sentence and the judge agreed.

[Galloism]

When natapoc acknowledges the data, and at least admits its legitimacy, then I will forgive her.

Until then, she's supporting a sexist narrative and trying to protect rapists and domestic abusers that happen to be female, no matter how much "sympathy" she has.

She's like those republicans who feel so sorry for women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy and work tirelessly to cut off her access to abortion.

Yeah, we don't buy your tears. Shape up your actions, and your tears will be respected.

Well, then that is different. I can accept that.

Look, no one holds XYZ position from birth. We all learn.

I didn't think women raped men ever. I thought female on male domestic violence was something so rare you'd likely get kidnapped by aliens first before coming across it.

I believed this because this is what I was taught - as a police officer. This was our education regarding rape and domestic violence that we received.

I've studied and I've learned since then. So can anybody else.

[Romakivila]

Holy shit that story is fucked up. A blatant fucking fail in our justice system.

[Des-Bal]

Holy shit that story is fucked up. A blatant fucking fail in our justice system.

How?

[Ganonsyoni]

If I was his parent, I wouldn't let him back to my house. Practically disown him. The american justice system isn't made for rehabilitation and even if it was, 6 months isn't enough and just shows to him that he can get off light for his terrible actions along with the knowledge that people in power and the system is biased in his favor in cases like this. I'll have serious trust issues with him and wouldn't allow him back until he learns he recognizes that he was wrong and apologizes to the woman.

Of course, I'm not a parent. But when I am, I'm definitely not gonna raise him like how that shitstain of a father did. I'm gonna taech him about consent and bodily sovereignty as soon as he is old enough to learn his ABC's

I wouldn't disown my own child over this. He would be treated to my shit list side though. I'll just say it's not pretty, and he would regret ever setting foot in a courtroom. He'd be scared of touching a woman ever again, I tell you that much.

It's not so much that the justice system is biased in his favor in cases like this, is that money rules the justice system. If you have an excellent attorney you paid literally thousands of dollars to defend your case, you played the game well, you get out more lenient than someone who doesn't have the money to do that. In this case, you're teaching them that money can get you out of any tight spot, which is not entirely false.

All I'm saying is that I'm not paying for a rapist's defense nor gonna comfort him for a vile action HE DID on another PERSON. He's on his own. And if he truly regrets his actions and apologizes to his victim, then I'll consider letting them in my good graces. But if he starts talking about "drunk sex" and "drunken mistakes" and "alcohol" like this shit head is doing, they'll remain on my shit list. Because they are dodging their responsibility on raping another person.

And I don't think this is just money. Wealth is a factor in our justice system, but its not the only one. Racism, classism, and sexism plays big roles as well. Read her letter again and you'll see she talked about the "perfect victim" about being not too emotional but emotional enough so as to not appear stoic but not too much to appear "too emotional". If you are stoic, you might be faking it. If you are too much, you might be faking it. Its disgusting. Its why a lot of women don't go to court because its too hard, too traumatizing (because you are basically recalling your rape over and over again with people doubting the truth of you), too expensive and takes a long time (which adds to the trauma). Add all that to the media who keeps on repeating your rapist as an "accomplished swimmer with goals in his life" while your identity remains "rape victim". Its an incredibly difficult and traumatizing thing to go through when it shouldn't be. Of course, if the perpetrator was black and poor, he would be getting 15 years at a minimum, not this 6 months and probation bullshit.

[Natapoc]

When natapoc acknowledges the data, and at least admits its legitimacy, then I will forgive her.

Until then, she's supporting a sexist narrative and trying to protect rapists and domestic abusers that happen to be female, no matter how much "sympathy" she has.

She's like those republicans who feel so sorry for women who are facing an unplanned pregnancy and work tirelessly to cut off her access to abortion.

Yeah, we don't buy your tears. Shape up your actions, and your tears will be respected.

Well, then that is different. I can accept that.

Galloism is substantially misrepresenting my past statements as well as my viewpoint. I did not want to respond to him because this thread is not about me. But since he seems to have persuaded you, let me explain:


I do not support a sexist narrative, nor do I wish to protect female abusers or rapists.

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

Galloism prefers to engage in proof by bullying. That is, if you have some reason to doubt his specific understanding of facts, than he tries to bully you into agreeing. I try to ignore him most of the time but I just wanted to clarify here that his statements are false.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

[Romakivila]

Holy shit that story is fucked up. A blatant fucking fail in our justice system.

How?

The man quite violently raped the woman, and got off 6 months in jail. People who've smoked pot have gone to jail for longer than that.

[Ostroeuropa]

Well, then that is different. I can accept that.

Galloism is substantially misrepresenting my past statements as well as my viewpoint. I did not want to respond to him because this thread is not about me. But since he seems to have persuaded you, let me explain:


I do not support a sexist narrative, nor do I wish to protect female abusers or rapists.

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

Galloism prefers to engage in proof by bullying. That is, if you have some reason to doubt his specific understanding of facts, than he tries to bully you into agreeing. I try to ignore him most of the time but I just wanted to clarify here that his statements are false.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

The reason the percentage is important is that the rarity of male rape and domestic violence victims is used as an excuse to dominate the conversation with discussions of female victims, to the exclusion of male ones in many cases.
I can almost guarantee you Gallo wouldn't give as much of a shit if you consistently brought up both men and women victims every time you addressed the topic. Maybe he would, I dunno, but I doubt it.
But if you focus on women, then how do you justify that?
Why, by the percentages, ofcourse, since you aren't prepared to say "I merely advocate for women, not equality.", you have to maintain the impression that a conversation disproportionately focused on women is because of disproportionate needs. That makes your rejection of the stats, in combination with your refusal to say "My advocacy is about women, not equality", a part of the cultural system which oppresses men, by denying them a platform with which to advocate for their rights.

That's how I see it. I expect gallos experience with the justifications for disproportionate focus will probably be similar.

[Des-Bal]

Galloism is substantially misrepresenting my past statements as well as my viewpoint. I did not want to respond to him because this thread is not about me. But since he seems to have persuaded you, let me explain:


I do not support a sexist narrative, nor do I wish to protect female abusers or rapists.

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

Galloism prefers to engage in proof by bullying. That is, if you have some reason to doubt his specific understanding of facts, than he tries to bully you into agreeing. I try to ignore him most of the time but I just wanted to clarify here that his statements are false.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

Don't fucking act like this is an issue of conflicting reports. You were presented with sources and you refused to believe them. You didn't counter them, you said they went against what you thought should be true and as a result you dismissed them out of hand.

What you're calling "proof bullying" is trying to paint yourself as a victim for ignoring facts and data in favor of clinging to your own beliefs.

The man quite violently raped the woman, and got off 6 months in jail. People who've smoked pot have gone to jail for longer than that.

The judge followed the recommendation of probation officials based on several concerns including the fact he was unlikely to reoffend. Depending on your view of what the courts should do it's totally possible he should have gotten more but characterizing it is a fail on the part of the justice system is a bit much.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I wouldn't disown my own child over this. He would be treated to my shit list side though. I'll just say it's not pretty, and he would regret ever setting foot in a courtroom. He'd be scared of touching a woman ever again, I tell you that much.

It's not so much that the justice system is biased in his favor in cases like this, is that money rules the justice system. If you have an excellent attorney you paid literally thousands of dollars to defend your case, you played the game well, you get out more lenient than someone who doesn't have the money to do that. In this case, you're teaching them that money can get you out of any tight spot, which is not entirely false.

All I'm saying is that I'm not paying for a rapist's defense nor gonna comfort him for a vile action HE DID on another PERSON. He's on his own. And if he truly regrets his actions and apologizes to his victim, then I'll consider letting them in my good graces. But if he starts talking about "drunk sex" and "drunken mistakes" and "alcohol" like this shit head is doing, they'll remain on my shit list. Because they are dodging their responsibility on raping another person.

And I don't think this is just money. Wealth is a factor in our justice system, but its not the only one. Racism, classism, and sexism plays big roles as well. Read her letter again and you'll see she talked about the "perfect victim" about being not too emotional but emotional enough so as to not appear stoic but not too much to appear "too emotional". If you are stoic, you might be faking it. If you are too much, you might be faking it. Its disgusting. Its why a lot of women don't go to court because its too hard, too traumatizing (because you are basically recalling your rape over and over again with people doubting the truth of you), too expensive and takes a long time (which adds to the trauma). Add all that to the media who keeps on repeating your rapist as an "accomplished swimmer with goals in his life" while your identity remains "rape victim". Its an incredibly difficult and traumatizing thing to go through when it shouldn't be. Of course, if the perpetrator was black and poor, he would be getting 15 years at a minimum, not this 6 months and probation bullshit.

See, you're probably more lenient than I am. I'd make them apologize to their victim, whether they want to or not. As a parent, his fuck ups are a reflection of how I raised them. Fuck me if I let a child of mine get away with it that easy just by running him out of the house and cutting off all support from him. That, to me, is the easy way out. I have said I wouldn't disown them, I never said I am not a mean son of a bitch when pissed. If he would start talking about drunk sex and rape culture, "drunken mistakes", "alcohol culture" and shit, forgive me for saying this, but I would probably jab him a good one on the jaw for being an idiot.

Also, true, but remember now that your attorney does play a big part, and the best defense attorneys are paid high dollar to do this shit. They're already paying for the best appellate lawyer they can find in San Francisco.

[Galloism]

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

You're missing the point. Again.

When you go around trumpeting that male victims of rape by females are approximately as common as unicorns, you set an obscenely high level of proof in the mind of the police who will hear the case, prosecutors who will try the case, and especially juries who will reach a verdict on the case.

These statistics are a slam dunk and cover decades of studies. You refuse to accept them because of ideological blindness.

This kind of thinking - that you promote - is why men who are victims of rape by women are often threatened with arrest for filing a false report when they go to police. This is why prosecutors often refuse to take the case. This is why juries overwhelmingly vote to acquit if they do. This is why judges give female sexual offenders extremely low sentences or probation. They don't believe it really happened because they're told it almost never does. If you're told something almost never happens, you'll approach it with double the skepticism of things you hear happen commonly.

You may not desire to support rapists. You may not even think you are supporting rapists. However, it doesn't change the fact that are supporting rapists.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

Then stop working so hard to deny them justice.

You may not think you are, but you are.

[Kelinfort]

Six months is light, I would've given him 2 or 3 years.

[Natapoc]

Six months is light, I would've given him 2 or 3 years.

If he was black or poor he'd be lucky to get twice that.

[Romakivila]

Galloism is substantially misrepresenting my past statements as well as my viewpoint. I did not want to respond to him because this thread is not about me. But since he seems to have persuaded you, let me explain:


I do not support a sexist narrative, nor do I wish to protect female abusers or rapists.

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

Galloism prefers to engage in proof by bullying. That is, if you have some reason to doubt his specific understanding of facts, than he tries to bully you into agreeing. I try to ignore him most of the time but I just wanted to clarify here that his statements are false.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

Don't fucking act like this is an issue of conflicting reports. You were presented with sources and you refused to believe them. You didn't counter them, you said they went against what you thought should be true and as a result you dismissed them out of hand.

What you're calling "proof bullying" is trying to paint yourself as a victim for ignoring facts and data in favor of clinging to your own beliefs.

The man quite violently raped the woman, and got off 6 months in jail. People who've smoked pot have gone to jail for longer than that.

The judge followed the recommendation of probation officials based on several concerns including the fact he was unlikely to reoffend. Depending on your view of what the courts should do it's totally possible he should have gotten more but characterizing it is a fail on the part of the justice system is a bit much.

I suppose that's true, but still the sheer perversion, and lack of apology as well as any true acceptance of responsibility or guilt is despicable. I'm not a judge, or expert on law by any sort of stretch of the term so I've no clue what the proper action would be in that case. I suppose it would be useless, a waste of money, and potentially harmful if they kept him in prison longer than necessary.

[The balkens]

Six months is light, I would've given him 2 or 3 years.

If he was black or poor he'd be lucky to get twice that.

or dead.

but thats not the discussion here, is it?

[Romakivila]

Six months is light, I would've given him 2 or 3 years.

If he was black or poor he'd be lucky to get twice that.

Why did race have to be pulled into this? However true it may or may not be it seems rather off topic to do so.

[Galloism]

Galloism is substantially misrepresenting my past statements as well as my viewpoint. I did not want to respond to him because this thread is not about me. But since he seems to have persuaded you, let me explain:


I do not support a sexist narrative, nor do I wish to protect female abusers or rapists.

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

Galloism prefers to engage in proof by bullying. That is, if you have some reason to doubt his specific understanding of facts, than he tries to bully you into agreeing. I try to ignore him most of the time but I just wanted to clarify here that his statements are false.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

The reason the percentage is important is that the rarity of male rape and domestic violence victims is used as an excuse to dominate the conversation with discussions of female victims, to the exclusion of male ones in many cases.
I can almost guarantee you Gallo wouldn't give as much of a shit if you consistently brought up both men and women victims every time you addressed the topic. Maybe he would, I dunno, but I doubt it.
But if you focus on women, then how do you justify that?
Why, by the percentages, ofcourse, since you aren't prepared to say "I merely advocate for women, not equality.", you have to maintain the impression that a conversation disproportionately focused on women is because of disproportionate needs. That makes your rejection of the stats, in combination with your refusal to say "My advocacy is about women, not equality", a part of the cultural system which oppresses men, by denying them a platform with which to advocate for their rights.

That's how I see it. I expect gallos experience with the justifications for disproportionate focus will probably be similar.

Actually no. It's more about legal justice.

I mean, imagine you were told from birth that it's more likely to come across gremlin riding a unicorn passing out free Donald trump figurines than for a white person to steal from a black person.

You truly believe this. It never happens or almost never happens.

You're put on a jury where a white person stole from a black person. What level of proof would you need to convict?

[Wallenburg]

Six months is light, I would've given him 2 or 3 years.

I highly support rehabilitation, but I don't see how he should have received a sentence any lower than 2 years. I'm not sure you could get this kid to learn anything to keep him from attacking again by giving him just six months.

[Ostroeuropa]

His primary anger with me is due to the fact that I would not accept his statistics on the percent of rape victims who are male because his statistics go against quite a bit of previously released information.

However, as I have said many times, it does not matter whose statistics are correct: Even one rape victim, regardless of gender, is one too many.

You're missing the point. Again.

When you go around trumpeting that male victims of rape by females are approximately as common as unicorns, you set an obscenely high level of proof in the mind of the police who will hear the case, prosecutors who will try the case, and especially juries who will reach a verdict on the case.

These statistics are a slam dunk and cover decades of studies. You refuse to accept them because of ideological blindness.

This kind of thinking - that you promote - is why men who are victims of rape by women are often threatened with arrest for filing a false report when they go to police. This is why prosecutors often refuse to take the case. This is why juries overwhelmingly vote to acquit if they do. This is why judges give female sexual offenders extremely low sentences or probation. They don't believe it really happened because they're told it almost never does. If you're told something almost never happens, you'll approach it with double the skepticism of things you hear happen commonly.

You may not desire to support rapists. You may not even think you are supporting rapists. However, it doesn't change the fact that are supporting rapists.

I do care about male rape victims regardless of the percent of rape victims they make up.

Then stop working so hard to deny them justice.

You may not think you are, but you are.

I guessed wrong. Your reason is also a good one though. Do you think this would be mitigated by consistently talking about male victims without emphasis on statistics?
For instance, even if someone were to say "1/5 women are raped, and 1/100 men are raped.", if they were to then go on to describe the difficulties the victims experience, the problems they encounter, the sexist responses etc, do you think this would help conviction rates by making more concrete in peoples minds that while a rare possibility, it's a possibility where they know how it often happens and such?

i agree with you that the stats are far more equal than many want to admit for ideological reasons. But i'm just curious. If people can visualize the process and the victims are humanized, then while statistically they may understand its skewed (It isn't, but bare with me.), mentally, their conception of the acts is equal because you've sat down and talked to them about "There's a guy named johnny and this is what happens to him." "There's a girl named debra." and such.

Actually no. It's more about legal justice.

I mean, imagine you were told from birth that it's more likely to come across gremlin riding a unicorn passing out free Donald trump figurines than for a white person to steal from a black person.

You truly believe this. It never happens or almost never happens.

You're put on a jury where a white person stole from a black person. What level of proof would you need to convict?

I see your point.

[Natapoc]

If he was black or poor he'd be lucky to get twice that.

Why did race have to be pulled into this? However true it may or may not be it seems rather off topic to do so.

Because his sense of entitlement to women's bodies did not happen in a vacuum. Factors ranging from white privilege to male privilege to class privilege and rape culture all merged together to permit this obscene narrative of perpetrator as innocent victim.

[Ganonsyoni]

All I'm saying is that I'm not paying for a rapist's defense nor gonna comfort him for a vile action HE DID on another PERSON. He's on his own. And if he truly regrets his actions and apologizes to his victim, then I'll consider letting them in my good graces. But if he starts talking about "drunk sex" and "drunken mistakes" and "alcohol" like this shit head is doing, they'll remain on my shit list. Because they are dodging their responsibility on raping another person.

And I don't think this is just money. Wealth is a factor in our justice system, but its not the only one. Racism, classism, and sexism plays big roles as well. Read her letter again and you'll see she talked about the "perfect victim" about being not too emotional but emotional enough so as to not appear stoic but not too much to appear "too emotional". If you are stoic, you might be faking it. If you are too much, you might be faking it. Its disgusting. Its why a lot of women don't go to court because its too hard, too traumatizing (because you are basically recalling your rape over and over again with people doubting the truth of you), too expensive and takes a long time (which adds to the trauma). Add all that to the media who keeps on repeating your rapist as an "accomplished swimmer with goals in his life" while your identity remains "rape victim". Its an incredibly difficult and traumatizing thing to go through when it shouldn't be. Of course, if the perpetrator was black and poor, he would be getting 15 years at a minimum, not this 6 months and probation bullshit.

See, you're probably more lenient than I am. I'd make them apologize to their victim, whether they want to or not. As a parent, his fuck ups are a reflection of how I raised them. Fuck me if I let a child of mine get away with it that easy just by running him out of the house and cutting off all support from him. That, to me, is the easy way out. I have said I wouldn't disown them, I never said I am not a mean son of a bitch when pissed. If he would start talking about drunk sex and rape culture, "drunken mistakes", "alcohol culture" and shit, forgive me for saying this, but I would probably jab him a good one on the jaw for being an idiot.

Also, true, but remember now that your attorney does play a big part, and the best defense attorneys are paid high dollar to do this shit. They're already paying for the best appellate lawyer they can find in San Francisco.

Again, I'm no parent. If they turn out that way, its partly my responsibility for what they have become. But then again, I can't control what they become fully, especially when they grow older (which is why I'm gonna ingrain it in them earlier). All I can do is show my disapproval and that it won't be gone until they show regret for their actions and forgive. I can't force them to apologize either, but I don't have to support them either.

I wouldn't get violent though, prolly hang up the phone and ignore them for a long time.

[Des-Bal]

I highly support rehabilitation, but I don't see how he should have received a sentence any lower than 2 years. I'm not sure you could get this kid to learn anything to keep him from attacking again by giving him just six months.

He is specifically considered unlikely to reoffend.

[ZOITZZLANDER]

hi uummm I'm the president of zoitzzlander did like a say in this