The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Ostroeuropa]

So why do many feminists work so hard to prevent any recognition of violence against men by women, if they recognize it happens?

Okay I had to take a few minutes to skim that. It's an interesting read I'd like to finish it.

I think that the feminist groups that I associate myself with and the feminist ideas and issues that I subscribe to aren't like how any of y'all are describing feminism to be, and maybe it's an ignorance issue within our groups, but feminism is not supposed to be demeaning or degrading of other groups, it's not supposed to be about harming men, and it's not supposed to be about women being better than men.

Well ok, you mind having a pop quiz to see if you're not one of the feminists actively suppressing mens issues?

What's the ratio of domestic violence?
What's the ratio of rape victims by gender?
Can you explain the wage gap?

Because more often than not, it's a case of feminists just repeating shit malicious liars have told them because they can't be bothered to fact check.
You may not think it's about harming men, or women being beter than men, or degrading men, but if you're the kind to continually push misinformation that does all those things because it catered to your preconceived notions of gender dynamics, what's really the difference between active malice and passive?

"Blacks are just more criminal in nature. I blame this on black culture. What, it's not about hating, degrading, etc, i'm merely repeating bullshit that I instantly believed because it catered to my prejudice and I haven't fact checked it!"

[Kelinfort]

And yet they only focus on women. That's the problem of feminism. The woman-centered narrative.

That's like saying "those damn gay rights movement leaders - they're only focusing on themselves. Why don't they start doing something for us straight people for a change?"

Because it's a movement revolving around equality and encouragement of a certain group of people.

Situations aren't analogous and I say this as a feminist. We must work for men's rights as well.

[Wallenburg]

1. Get them to shut the fuck up and mind their own damn business. (Segregation.)
2. Get them to adopt the MRA ideology and identifier when discussing mens issues, perhaps eventually gravitating to a united new movement. (Merger.)
3. If neither of these is possible, the only option left to get them to stop effecting mens issues, is to destroy their power. (Destruction.)

I would very much prefer (2), but the issue would be reconciling the wounds dealt by each one to the other, and purging the two movements of radicals and reactionaries. I think the best we can do is work toward an informal merging of the two movements, with egalitarians openly identifying as members of both at the same time.

[Valystria]

That's like saying "those damn gay rights movement leaders - they're only focusing on themselves. Why don't they start doing something for us straight people for a change?"

Because it's a movement revolving around equality and encouragement of a certain group of people.

Situations aren't analogous and I say this as a feminist. We must work for men's rights as well.

You're one of the helpful adherents of the movement.

[Galloism]

So why do many feminists work so hard to prevent any recognition of violence against men by women, if they recognize it happens?

Okay I had to take a few minutes to skim that. It's an interesting read I'd like to finish it.

I think that the feminist groups that I associate myself with and the feminist ideas and issues that I subscribe to aren't like how any of y'all are describing feminism to be, and maybe it's an ignorance issue within our groups, but feminism is not supposed to be demeaning or degrading of other groups, it's not supposed to be about harming men, and it's not supposed to be about women being better than men.

And yet, this is the reality of establishment feminists. I cited Mary Koss earlier, which I recommend you go back and look at (her definition which excludes male victims made to penetrate women from the definition of rape is used by the CDC continuously to this day, and she has substantial advisory positions with law enforcement as well).

There's also very recently in India, when lawmakers created a nonsexist definition of rape in the legal system - which then feminists protested against until it was made sexist again. That's also earlier in this thread.

[Shellbubalooville]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

[Kelinfort]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

Just as true with feminism and Tumblr, there is a group in the MRM that only insists on whining.

[Ostroeuropa]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

If feminists didn't routinely claim feminism is the movement for solving sexism, MRAs wouldn't have to say this shit to point out you aren't doing it.
As i've said, you are likely going to be accepted by MRAs as a decent feminist, because you have no pretendings to be working on mens issues too as a feminist. You fit the category of a segregationist feminist, which aligns you with the goals of the MRM.

What you have to realize is that lots of feminists pretend feminism is the movement to fix sexism. All of it. Even the bits against men.
This is why MRAs say shit like that, because it demonstrates those feminists are mostly liars, or have absolutely no influence and thus are in denial over what their movement is for.

I've also never heard of the history one. Source?

[Galloism]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

Dunno if I'd use the word "stupid", but if you're going to claim to be the only game in town when it comes to equality, you better approach it from both sides.

They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?

This is actually a very relevant question, given men make up roughly half of domestic violence victims.

Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Never heard anyone ask that ever, except as a tongue-in-cheek sarcasm thing.

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

No, feminism, as a movement, tries to eradicate violence and prejudice against women, while trying to prevent anyone from working on eradicating prejudice and violence against men. That makes it at best neutral, as it comes to eradication of violence and prejudice.

I mean, I understand your little chapter may be egalitarian in principle, and that's nice, but this is arguably the same as talking about libertarian republicans who are truly libertarian and then trying to generalize that to the entire Republican Party.

[Valystria]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

Just as true with feminism and Tumblr, there is a group in the MRM that only insists on whining.

Inequalities should be constantly focused on. It is quite helpful that there are MRAs who don't let the inequalities slide.

[Kelinfort]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

Just as true with feminism and Tumblr, there is a group in the MRM that only insists on whining.

Inequalities should be constantly focused on. It is quite helpful that there are MRAs who don't let the inequalities slide.

And you are correct. The Red Pill, however, does no such thing.

[Ostroeuropa]

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.


Inequalities should be constantly focused on. It is quite helpful that there are MRAs who don't let the inequalities slide.

And you are correct. The Red Pill, however, does no such thing.

And how are they related to the discussion?

[Kelinfort]

And you are correct. The Red Pill, however, does no such thing.

And how are they related to the discussion?

Many consider themselves to be part of the MRM.

[Ostroeuropa]

And how are they related to the discussion?

Many consider themselves to be part of the MRM.

Lol, source? From them, if you would.

[Shellbubalooville]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

If feminists didn't routinely claim feminism is the movement for solving sexism, MRAs wouldn't have to say this shit to point out you aren't doing it.
As i've said, you are likely going to be accepted by MRAs as a decent feminist, because you have no pretendings to be working on mens issues too as a feminist. You fit the category of a segregationist feminist, which aligns you with the goals of the MRM.

What you have to realize is that lots of feminists pretend feminism is the movement to fix sexism. All of it. Even the bits against men.
This is why MRAs say shit like that, because it demonstrates those feminists are mostly liars, or have absolutely no influence and thus are in denial over what their movement is for.

I've also never heard of the history one. Source?

The feminist movement is a movement for solving sexism against women.

The issue is the situations that I've seen these comments in. Most of the time in these conversations nobody's said that all men rape, or all men beat people, we're talking about the issue of rape in general, from a female perspective, and MRA's get hella defensive. And then feminists get defensive against MRA's and it's just a big mess like neither side should be fighting the other.

The thing is that I can't say that I'm working on men's issues too, because I don't know what it's like to be a man. It's not my place to be involved, only to support parts of the movement that I agree with.

As far as a source goes, I don't have one because it came out of two guys' mouths during a heated conversation that they were losing.

[Wallenburg]

And how are they related to the discussion?

Many consider themselves to be part of the MRM.

Well, if you insist upon calling radfems part of the feminist movement, it's only egalitarian to include radical MRAs in the MRM.

[Ostroeuropa]

Many consider themselves to be part of the MRM.

Well, if you insist upon calling radfems part of the feminist movement, it's only egalitarian to include radical MRAs in the MRM.

The Red Pill aren't radical MRAs though. They're a seperate movement.

[Shellbubalooville]

Okay tho here's something else as far as Men's Rights Activists go. And I can only speak to my own experiences not anyone else's because they aren't mine.

The only experiences as an active feminist I have had with MRA's is that of these men saying that feminists are a stupid movement because they're not taking men into consideration.

They turn around and say "not all men" when we talk about domestic violence, rape, etc.
They ask why there's a women's center but no men's center?
Why a women's history month and not a men's history month?

Which only proves to diminish and put down the feminist movement for the very real issues that we do talk about and the violence and prejudice we try to eradicate.

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

There's nothing wrong with a movement discussing violence and sexism from a woman's perspective and based around women. I've never known a feminist to say that men don't get raped, or that women don't ever beat their spouses. We know that it's a gender neutral issue, but we're catering to women and putting our priority on women, the same way any other movement does with their "type".

[Wallenburg]

Well, if you insist upon calling radfems part of the feminist movement, it's only egalitarian to include radical MRAs in the MRM.

The Red Pill aren't radical MRAs though. They're a seperate movement.

If they consider themselves MRAs, they are MRAs.

[Ostroeuropa]

If feminists didn't routinely claim feminism is the movement for solving sexism, MRAs wouldn't have to say this shit to point out you aren't doing it.
As i've said, you are likely going to be accepted by MRAs as a decent feminist, because you have no pretendings to be working on mens issues too as a feminist. You fit the category of a segregationist feminist, which aligns you with the goals of the MRM.

What you have to realize is that lots of feminists pretend feminism is the movement to fix sexism. All of it. Even the bits against men.
This is why MRAs say shit like that, because it demonstrates those feminists are mostly liars, or have absolutely no influence and thus are in denial over what their movement is for.

I've also never heard of the history one. Source?

The feminist movement is a movement for solving sexism against women.

The issue is the situations that I've seen these comments in. Most of the time in these conversations nobody's said that all men rape, or all men beat people, we're talking about the issue of rape in general, from a female perspective, and MRA's get hella defensive. And then feminists get defensive against MRA's and it's just a big mess like neither side should be fighting the other.

The thing is that I can't say that I'm working on men's issues too, because I don't know what it's like to be a man. It's not my place to be involved, only to support parts of the movement that I agree with.

As far as a source goes, I don't have one because it came out of two guys' mouths during a heated conversation that they were losing.

But that isn't what most feminists claim. They claim it's about solving sexism, period. As such, the MRM counters are entirely appropriate.
If more feminists would be like you and say feminism makes absolutely no claim on mens issues and didn't block the MRM from emerging, that'd be fine.

As it is, the MRAs try to organize, and feminists bitch and complain and pull fire alarms and print smears and demand they be censored because feminism already deals with mens issues too.
Well alright then.
So then we watch you guys talk about issues in a gynocentric way and we go "You're fucking up. This is why we need an MRM. This is why feminism isn't pro-equality, it's pro-woman."

[Ostroeuropa]

The Red Pill aren't radical MRAs though. They're a seperate movement.

If they consider themselves MRAs, they are MRAs.

They don't consider themselves MRAs...

That's why they call themselves TRP.

[Wallenburg]

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

There's nothing wrong with a movement discussing violence and sexism from a woman's perspective and based around women. I've never known a feminist to say that men don't get raped, or that women don't ever beat their spouses. We know that it's a gender neutral issue, but we're catering to women and putting our priority on women, the same way any other movement does with their "type".

You clearly have been blessed having not yet read Chessmistress.

[Galloism]

If feminists didn't routinely claim feminism is the movement for solving sexism, MRAs wouldn't have to say this shit to point out you aren't doing it.
As i've said, you are likely going to be accepted by MRAs as a decent feminist, because you have no pretendings to be working on mens issues too as a feminist. You fit the category of a segregationist feminist, which aligns you with the goals of the MRM.

What you have to realize is that lots of feminists pretend feminism is the movement to fix sexism. All of it. Even the bits against men.
This is why MRAs say shit like that, because it demonstrates those feminists are mostly liars, or have absolutely no influence and thus are in denial over what their movement is for.

I've also never heard of the history one. Source?

The feminist movement is a movement for solving sexism against women.

The issue is the situations that I've seen these comments in. Most of the time in these conversations nobody's said that all men rape, or all men beat people, we're talking about the issue of rape in general, from a female perspective, and MRA's get hella defensive. And then feminists get defensive against MRA's and it's just a big mess like neither side should be fighting the other.

It's usually when a feminist says something like "DV is almost always perpetrated by men" or "rape is a crime that mostly women suffer from" when the statistics say otherwise. Such attempts to marginalize male victims is commonplace among feminists - done almost as a reflex, I think.

So yeah, people who are actually interested in those victims tend to get defensive when feminists start dismissing them.

As far as a source goes, I don't have one because it came out of two guys' mouths during a heated conversation that they were losing.

So likely made up. Quelle surprise.

[Galloism]

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

There's nothing wrong with a movement discussing violence and sexism from a woman's perspective and based around women. I've never known a feminist to say that men don't get raped, or that women don't ever beat their spouses. We know that it's a gender neutral issue, but we're catering to women and putting our priority on women, the same way any other movement does with their "type".

I have. Many times.

Here, let me help you:

I guess I have a better opinion of "the world" than you do. I suspect that most people would call such a crime rape, regardless of the official legal definition in the UK. Certainly most feminists I know would call it rape and allow bureaucrats to argue semantics.

Well, the famous feminists (those influence policy) are generally either overwhelmingly silent on the issue, or actually work against recognizing the second (women raping a man) as rape. These are the ones controlling definitions for studies and influencing law.

I already posted this before, but here you go:

Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman.

Emphasis is mine.

[Ostroeuropa]

You must have a problem with egalitarians too for looking down upon a supposed equality movement that only marginalizes everyone else.

When the feminist movement talks about domestic violence and rape, they frame it as a women's issue and not as the gender-neutral issue it should be. That's your movement's problem.

There's nothing wrong with a movement discussing violence and sexism from a woman's perspective and based around women. I've never known a feminist to say that men don't get raped, or that women don't ever beat their spouses. We know that it's a gender neutral issue, but we're catering to women and putting our priority on women, the same way any other movement does with their "type".

Fine, then why do feminists constantly seem to be opposing the MRM organizing to solve mens issues?
Haven't you seen big red and all that?

The fact is, you're a member of a 1950s heterosexual rights organization whining about how straight people can't be interior dectorators without being accused of being gay, and saying you aren't involved in gay rights and don't oppose gay rights.
And that's fine, as you point out. Except, you know, in the context of their being endemic state suppression of gay rights and gay rights groups.
That makes your behavior extremely questionable, and merely entrenching further privilege for an entitled group.

So long as large parts of the feminist movement INSISTS feminism addresses mens issues and suppress mens groups, then you cannot complain about the MRM being hostile to you when you fail to do so. The fact you aren't a part of the problem is irrelevant, you're still profiteering from other peoples oppression.

You've been burdened with the RESPONSIBILITY to address mens issues by other feminists insisting feminists will and shutting down mens groups whenever they can. Do so, or accept that you have no right to complain when people call you out on it.
If you don't want that responsibility, don't call yourself a feminist, or start working with the MRM too.

Alternatively, start being a lot louder and more vocal in how feminism doesn't address mens issues and they need their own group.