The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Like I said, the high school drama needs to end. Compromise won't be achieved if MRAs storm feminist conferences/activities, or if feminists storm MRA conferences/activities. The cycle of interminable bullshit will not permit advancement. So what can we do? How do we chop the heads of these many beasts so that we achieve a common ground with two main heads?

I am honestly asking.

Stop giving the radicals the ability to speak on your behalf. The problem is essentially that whenever someone like Mary Koss is brought up, she's defended (Natapoc just did this) as a feminist with some "wrong opinions".

No, no, Koss cannot be legitimately defended as a feminist if you want this conversation to advance. Because if she is defended as a feminist, that legitimizes MRM complaints that feminists protect women but not men. This, of course, leads to the vicious cycle where feminists respond by accusing MRMs of using male rights as a soapbox to destroy feminism and where MRMs respond by accusing feminists of only ever caring about issues where women are disadvantaged, and so on and so on.

Koss and her ilk need to be shunned from the feminist movement and told they are not welcome. Similar things need to happen with idiots in the MRM, though I'm not currently aware of any as I don't follow the movement very closely.

To heal the wound, first it must be cleaned.

I have never liked Koss. I think she is responsible for a very hateful rhetoric and for the way our current definition of rape stands. It is not a genitalia thing, it is a human thing and we can all, no matter our sex or gender, be victims of rape. Excluding the penis only to protect the vagina created inequities.

If we can reach that commonality, I guess we can begin cleaning that wound. And we ignore the Mary Kosses and any other radfem along with any radical element of the MRAs and get things done. That may be the only way, although I am open to more suggestions.

[Galloism]

I use a certain anonymous email service to help male victims of rape and DV. It comes to that box.

Do you have links to resources for male victim support? I still occasionally mentor teen girls, and one of my associates was asking about those the other day. I'd love to pass that info on to him.

Rape or DV, adult or child? (and no, I won't pass you the info on myself)

[Galloism]

Stop giving the radicals the ability to speak on your behalf. The problem is essentially that whenever someone like Mary Koss is brought up, she's defended (Natapoc just did this) as a feminist with some "wrong opinions".

No, no, Koss cannot be legitimately defended as a feminist if you want this conversation to advance. Because if she is defended as a feminist, that legitimizes MRM complaints that feminists protect women but not men. This, of course, leads to the vicious cycle where feminists respond by accusing MRMs of using male rights as a soapbox to destroy feminism and where MRMs respond by accusing feminists of only ever caring about issues where women are disadvantaged, and so on and so on.

Koss and her ilk need to be shunned from the feminist movement and told they are not welcome. Similar things need to happen with idiots in the MRM, though I'm not currently aware of any as I don't follow the movement very closely.

To heal the wound, first it must be cleaned.

I have never liked Koss. I think she is responsible for a very hateful rhetoric and for the way our current definition of rape stands. It is not a genitalia thing, it is a human thing and we can all, no matter our sex or gender, be victims of rape. Excluding the penis only to protect the vagina created inequities.

If we can reach that commonality, I guess we can begin cleaning that wound. And we ignore the Mary Kosses and any other radfem along with any radical element of the MRAs and get things done. That may be the only way, although I am open to more suggestions.

Ignoring is not sufficient. Ignoring has been what has been happening up til now.

Only opposing is going to work.

[Highfort]

I'm starting to wonder if it is the generation currently in school that is molding feminism into a more egalitarian movement. Internal revolution and whatnot.

Reporting from college, it's a mixed bag.

Many feminists I know take the pain (which they should not have to, if the movement distanced itself from Koss and her ilk) to differentiate themselves from feminists who do not include men's issues. It's often colloquially phrased as "I'm not the tumblr sort of feminist", giving this gist of "I'm for egalitarianism and I use the feminist label". Many of them express disgust with the rape and sexual violence perpetrated against men just as much as they do women.

But I also know those who take the "racism/sexism is a function of power" route and consider oppression of men to be impossible since men have power due to patriarchy (similar to how many will dismiss racism against whites since "whites cannot be oppressed because the race structure is designed to protect them").

So really, it's a mixed bag. I'm hoping that there's more of the former than of the latter, but I can't be sure, obviously, given the limited data set.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I have never liked Koss. I think she is responsible for a very hateful rhetoric and for the way our current definition of rape stands. It is not a genitalia thing, it is a human thing and we can all, no matter our sex or gender, be victims of rape. Excluding the penis only to protect the vagina created inequities.

If we can reach that commonality, I guess we can begin cleaning that wound. And we ignore the Mary Kosses and any other radfem along with any radical element of the MRAs and get things done. That may be the only way, although I am open to more suggestions.

Ignoring is not sufficient. Ignoring has been what has been happening up til now.

Only opposing is going to work.

Systematic and organized ignoring of radicalized elements, for this, I think it can work. Excluding these elements from the discussion could actually benefit both sides.

[Natapoc]

I found a funny comic on gender equality vs feminism...
http://www.collegehumor.com/post/703456 ... -look-like

I suppose under that viewpoint... Perhaps feminism is not about gender equality after all?

[Wallenburg]

I'm starting to wonder if it is the generation currently in school that is molding feminism into a more egalitarian movement. Internal revolution and whatnot.

Reporting from college, it's a mixed bag.

Many feminists I know take the pain (which they should not have to, if the movement distanced itself from Koss and her ilk) to differentiate themselves from feminists who do not include men's issues. It's often colloquially phrased as "I'm not the tumblr sort of feminist", giving this gist of "I'm for egalitarianism and I use the feminist label". Many of them express disgust with the rape and sexual violence perpetrated against men just as much as they do women.

But I also know those who take the "racism/sexism is a function of power" route and consider oppression of men to be impossible since men have power due to patriarchy (similar to how many will dismiss racism against whites since "whites cannot be oppressed because the race structure is designed to protect them").

So really, it's a mixed bag. I'm hoping that there's more of the former than of the latter, but I can't be sure, obviously, given the limited data set.

Interesting. I have no idea what our movement is doing then. I suppose that my decision not to pay attention to the self-appointed leaders of our movement may contribute to the confusion.

[Galloism]

I found a funny comic on gender equality vs feminism...
http://www.collegehumor.com/post/703456 ... -look-like

I suppose under that viewpoint... Perhaps feminism is not about gender equality after all?

Heh, it's Radfems Inc.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I found a funny comic on gender equality vs feminism...
http://www.collegehumor.com/post/703456 ... -look-like

I suppose under that viewpoint... Perhaps feminism is not about gender equality after all?

Let me stress that despite our differences, I do not think you're unreasonable. In fact, having you into the discussion I was talking about could be a benefit. Not sure why, but I felt that needed to be said.

[Highfort]

Systematic and organized ignoring of radicalized elements, for this, I think it can work. Excluding these elements from the discussion could actually benefit both sides.

Right but the sort of ignoring you speak of and the ignoring that's actually happening are different. Excluding someone from discussion is not the same as letting them speak and then just ignoring them.

While many feminists ignore Professor Koss, she has power from the media and from the government. People like her get media attention and get consulted on actual policy, so ignoring them in the traditional sense doesn't do any good. It's a lot like burying your head in the sand and hoping the person aiming a gun at you won't be able to shoot you since you can't see them.

Ignoring has to be systematic - they have to be ignored when they attempt to secure public places to speak. They have to stop have audiences turning up to their events so that no one will sponsor them. They have to be COLLECTIVELY ignored and not just INDIVIDUALLY ignored for this to work.

If one black person stops riding the bus, it's no big deal. If they all do, then the bus companies will think twice about their policy on segregation. Same concept here.

[Wallenburg]

I found a funny comic on gender equality vs feminism...
http://www.collegehumor.com/post/703456 ... -look-like

I suppose under that viewpoint... Perhaps feminism is not about gender equality after all?

That Times cover was hilarious.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Systematic and organized ignoring of radicalized elements, for this, I think it can work. Excluding these elements from the discussion could actually benefit both sides.

Right but the sort of ignoring you speak of and the ignoring that's actually happening are different. Excluding someone from discussion is not the same as letting them speak and then just ignoring them.

While many feminists ignore Professor Koss, she has power from the media and from the government. People like her get media attention and get consulted on actual policy, so ignoring them in the traditional sense doesn't do any good. It's a lot like burying your head in the sand and hoping the person aiming a gun at you won't be able to shoot you since you can't see them.

Ignoring has to be systematic - they have to be ignored when they attempt to secure public places to speak. They have to stop have audiences turning up to their events so that no one will sponsor them. They have to be COLLECTIVELY ignored and not just INDIVIDUALLY ignored for this to work.

If one black person stops riding the bus, it's no big deal. If they all do, then the bus companies will think twice about their policy on segregation. Same concept here.

As I'm a bit sleepy and dizzy, I hope you don't mind if I address this at a latter point. :}

[Natapoc]

Like I said, the high school drama needs to end. Compromise won't be achieved if MRAs storm feminist conferences/activities, or if feminists storm MRA conferences/activities. The cycle of interminable bullshit will not permit advancement. So what can we do? How do we chop the heads of these many beasts so that we achieve a common ground with two main heads?

I am honestly asking.

Stop giving the radicals the ability to speak on your behalf. The problem is essentially that whenever someone like Mary Koss is brought up, she's defended (Natapoc just did this) as a feminist with some "wrong opinions".

No, no, Koss cannot be legitimately defended as a feminist if you want this conversation to advance. Because if she is defended as a feminist, that legitimizes MRM complaints that feminists protect women but not men. This, of course, leads to the vicious cycle where feminists respond by accusing MRMs of using male rights as a soapbox to destroy feminism and where MRMs respond by accusing feminists of only ever caring about issues where women are disadvantaged, and so on and so on.

Koss and her ilk need to be shunned from the feminist movement and told they are not welcome. Similar things need to happen with idiots in the MRM, though I'm not currently aware of any as I don't follow the movement very closely.

To heal the wound, first it must be cleaned.

I'm not sure how you can interpret what I said to be defending her.

I said she was clearly wrong and that what she said was not okay. How is that defending her?

[Highfort]

I'm not sure how you can interpret what I said to be defending her.
I said she was clearly wrong. How is that defending her?

You stated that in spite of her wrong views she was still a feminist, because someone can be ideologically-weak and still be part of that ideology. The latter is very true.

However, to imply that Mary Koss is still a feminist while she violates a very fundamental precept in egalitarianism (which you claim is linked to feminism) by denigrating male rape as mere sexual assault and holding up female rape as actual rape does the following:

It demeans feminism because it implies that feminists can hold this position and still be for gender equality (they cannot).

The only conclusions I can come up with here are that either (1) Mary Koss is not a feminist and you are lying or (2) feminism is in fact not linked to egalitarianism since it is possible to be a feminist and not be an egalitarian.

[Swith Witherward]

Rape or DV, adult or child? (and no, I won't pass you the info on myself)

Rape. Most of the male clients referred to us fall between the 15-21 range. We see some DV but not very often (for either gender). (And no, please don't pass info on yourself. It wouldn't be right for me to put you in that position.)

Also, if you'd rather people not pick the resources apart here, feel free to TG them to me.

[Galloism]

Rape or DV, adult or child? (and no, I won't pass you the info on myself)

Rape. Most of the male clients referred to us fall between the 15-21 range. We see some DV but not very often (for either gender). (And no, please don't pass info on yourself. It wouldn't be right for me to put you in that position.)

Also, if you'd rather people not pick the resources apart here, feel free to TG them to me.

Uh... that spans a couple of categories.

If you're in the UK you can try here:

http://www.male-rape.org.uk

If you're in the US, I might have to give you a few separate resources and do a little research. Drop me a TG to remind me and I'll look into it tomorrow.

[Swith Witherward]

Uh... that spans a couple of categories.

If you're in the UK you can try here:

http://www.male-rape.org.uk

If you're in the US, I might have to give you a few separate resources and do a little research. Drop me a TG to remind me and I'll look into it tomorrow.

Thanks Gallo. We're in the US. It's been difficult finding anything, especially as our volunteers have no experience with the orgs that support these victims. It's frustrating.

[Ostroeuropa]

Uh... that spans a couple of categories.

If you're in the UK you can try here:

http://www.male-rape.org.uk

If you're in the US, I might have to give you a few separate resources and do a little research. Drop me a TG to remind me and I'll look into it tomorrow.

Thanks Gallo. We're in the US. It's been difficult finding anything, especially as our volunteers have no experience with the orgs that support these victims. It's frustrating.

You should contact the national coalition for men. They usually maintain a list of organizations in your area. (If american.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... on_for_Men

The MRM reddit is also pretty good at this, though they're amateur and it's more of a survivors group sometimes.

If you're lucky, there will be a local NCM chapter.

[Ostroeuropa]

You get death threats?

3 or 4 a month, on average.

This sucks. I think i've been spared from it (Mostly. I got one once.) because i'm part of a crowd online and don't necessarily stand out as an individual, except here on NS.

Other than that my activism is covert in charities. (Mental health, homelessness.)

Or explicit behind the closed doors at the labour party meetings, where it has to remain a secret.

It makes me worry about being more open about it. I was considering doing that.

[Val Halla]

3 or 4 a month, on average.

This sucks. I think i've been spared from it (Mostly. I got one once.) because i'm part of a crowd and don't necessarily stand out as an individual, except here on NS.

Other than that my activism is covert in charities. (Mental health, homelessness.)

Or explicit behind the closed doors at the labour party meetings, where it has to remain a secret.

It makes me worry about being more open about it. I was considering doing that.

I get death threats sometimes. It's pretty scary sometimes, so be careful

[Ostroeuropa]

This sucks. I think i've been spared from it (Mostly. I got one once.) because i'm part of a crowd and don't necessarily stand out as an individual, except here on NS.

Other than that my activism is covert in charities. (Mental health, homelessness.)

Or explicit behind the closed doors at the labour party meetings, where it has to remain a secret.

It makes me worry about being more open about it. I was considering doing that.

I get death threats sometimes. It's pretty scary sometimes, so be careful

I don't think i'd mind getting killed, it would be politically useful. (Depression has it's advantages I suppose. Taylor is my favorite character for a reason.) I accept it would be a shame in an abstract sort of way, I just don't feel it. It's the idea of everyone hating me that gives me pause, or my friends/family getting threatened. Most people I'm friends with already know this shit about me, but if I were to be made toxic they might distance themselves and i'd be alone.
Might kill me quicker than a bullet.

Something that perhaps needs to be said is that probably, we do need a men's rights group. Issues pertaining to men can be discussed at length with such group/s. And then, have both MRAs and feminists come together and work on issues that affect them both. No cock-blocking.

I would like that, although, once again, I'm not sure MRAs are the group we need (unless they mature).

I'm not especially hopeful, but it would be nice.

MRM real world advocacy tends to be to the point discussion of mens issues.
Whether this is because we're fully aware that feminists will disrupt and shut down those meetings anyway and we record it, or because we want to fix the issues, is up in the air.
I'm betting it's both.

No, I think you're right when it comes to MRAs. It would have to be a different kind of group or groups.

The current MRM is too focused on opposing feminism to work in conjunction with it. Moderate feminism would need to have a moderate MRM in order to achieve the balance of egalitarianism that both movements claim to be espousing.

Reminds me of Republicans and Democrats. In theory, they govern by balancing each other out. In practice, it's generally more that they're at each others' throats and the nation suffers for it.

Similarly, in feminism and MRM there are moderates who are willing to compromise but they are silenced by the vitriolic radicals who declare that, no, we cannot have equality while the other side still exists. We have found the enemy, and we will not negotiate with imps of Satan. That is the problem with how the movements currently treat each other. It's a nuclear arms race and neither side has a strong enough faction willing to compromise, so both sides simply have to double down on radicalism and hope that the other side dies out first.

The feminist movement is reaping what it sowed. The MRM demands are clear. Once feminist institutions cave in and admit that feminism has failed men and they need their own movement, and that movement is the MRM, we'll back down and stop saying they need to be destroyed utterly.
But if they don't do that, they need to be destroyed utterly.

Alternatively, feminism can stop failing men. Some MRAs think this is possible. I don't.

[Wallenburg]

I get death threats sometimes. It's pretty scary sometimes, so be careful

I don't think i'd mind getting killed, it would be politically useful. (Depression has it's advantages I suppose. Taylor is my favorite character for a reason.). It's the idea of everyone hating me that gives me pause. Most people I'm friends with already know this shit about me, but if I were to be made toxic they might distance themselves and i'd be alone.
Might kill me quicker than a bullet.

Martyrdom is not glorious, Ostro. It is far better to live for your cause than to die for it. And that any of you would receive death threats for simply holding an opinion or trying to help others boggles my mind. I may disagree with you on some things, but a death threat is simply an evil thing to make. Nobody deserves that kind of pressure, that kind of treatment. That people like you who--as far as I know--haven't even done anything controversial--receive threats against your life...it's a terrifying idea even as a third party. I'm sorry you have to go through that; the people who get off on sending you all such hateful attacks are nothing but pricks.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't think i'd mind getting killed, it would be politically useful. (Depression has it's advantages I suppose. Taylor is my favorite character for a reason.). It's the idea of everyone hating me that gives me pause. Most people I'm friends with already know this shit about me, but if I were to be made toxic they might distance themselves and i'd be alone.
Might kill me quicker than a bullet.

Martyrdom is not glorious, Ostro. It is far better to live for your cause than to die for it. And that any of you would receive death threats for simply holding an opinion or trying to help others boggles my mind. I may disagree with you on some things, but a death threat is simply an evil thing to make. Nobody deserves that kind of pressure, that kind of treatment. That people like you who--as far as I know--haven't even done anything controversial--receive threats against your life...it's a terrifying idea even as a third party. I'm sorry you have to go through that; the people who get off on sending you all such hateful attacks are nothing but pricks.

Eh, I don't get any really, just the one once. Gallo seems more effected.

[Wallenburg]

Martyrdom is not glorious, Ostro. It is far better to live for your cause than to die for it. And that any of you would receive death threats for simply holding an opinion or trying to help others boggles my mind. I may disagree with you on some things, but a death threat is simply an evil thing to make. Nobody deserves that kind of pressure, that kind of treatment. That people like you who--as far as I know--haven't even done anything controversial--receive threats against your life...it's a terrifying idea even as a third party. I'm sorry you have to go through that; the people who get off on sending you all such hateful attacks are nothing but pricks.

Eh, I don't get any really, just the one once. Gallo seems more effected.

Well, it still applies, to Gallo especially.

[Val Halla]

I don't think i'd mind getting killed, it would be politically useful. (Depression has it's advantages I suppose. Taylor is my favorite character for a reason.). It's the idea of everyone hating me that gives me pause. Most people I'm friends with already know this shit about me, but if I were to be made toxic they might distance themselves and i'd be alone.
Might kill me quicker than a bullet.

Martyrdom is not glorious, Ostro. It is far better to live for your cause than to die for it. And that any of you would receive death threats for simply holding an opinion or trying to help others boggles my mind. I may disagree with you on some things, but a death threat is simply an evil thing to make. Nobody deserves that kind of pressure, that kind of treatment. That people like you who--as far as I know--haven't even done anything controversial--receive threats against your life...it's a terrifying idea even as a third party. I'm sorry you have to go through that; the people who get off on sending you all such hateful attacks are nothing but pricks.

It's not really entirely because of my beliefs, mostly about me