The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's the "women are wonderful" notion.

I used to buy into it, honestly.

However, the last, what, 4 years, have dispelled that notion. Women are as opportunistic as men. If they can get away with something, they will.

Note, #notallmen #notallwomen and all that, but both genders are capable of being opportunistic.

[Galloism]

It's the "women are wonderful" notion.

I used to buy into it, honestly.

However, the last, what, 4 years, have dispelled that notion. Women are as opportunistic as men. If they can get away with something, they will.

Note, #notallmen #notallwomen and all that, but both genders are capable of being opportunistic.

So did I, honestly. For a long time.

The day I realized women were just as shitty as men the world suddenly made a hell of a lot more sense.

[Costa Fierro]

Welcome to my world, chaps.

[Mattopilos]

It's the "women are wonderful" notion.

I used to buy into it, honestly.

However, the last, what, 4 years, have dispelled that notion. Women are as opportunistic as men. If they can get away with something, they will.

Note, #notallmen #notallwomen and all that, but both genders are capable of being opportunistic.

I agree, but the numbers sure as hell point to male perpetrators. Definitely and male and female problem for rape and domestic violence.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I used to buy into it, honestly.

However, the last, what, 4 years, have dispelled that notion. Women are as opportunistic as men. If they can get away with something, they will.

Note, #notallmen #notallwomen and all that, but both genders are capable of being opportunistic.

I agree, but the numbers sure as hell point to male perpetrators. Definitely and male and female problem for rape and domestic violence.

No, they point to people close to you, frighteningly so.

It just so happens that the figures are taken at relevance value by the gender data.

If you look at the relationship data, is not strangers, in the overwhelming majority of cases, who are the perpetrators.

[Galloism]

I used to buy into it, honestly.

However, the last, what, 4 years, have dispelled that notion. Women are as opportunistic as men. If they can get away with something, they will.

Note, #notallmen #notallwomen and all that, but both genders are capable of being opportunistic.

I agree, but the numbers sure as hell point to male perpetrators. Definitely and male and female problem for rape and domestic violence.

Well, the numbers point to somewhat more male perpetrators of rape, but somewhat more female perpetrators of domestic violence.

Both probably within 10% of the average.

[Mattopilos]

I agree, but the numbers sure as hell point to male perpetrators. Definitely and male and female problem for rape and domestic violence.

No, they point to people close to you, frighteningly so.

It just so happens that the figures are taken at relevance value by the gender data.

If you look at the relationship data, is not strangers, in the overwhelming majority of cases, who are the perpetrators.

... I was looking at gender as per the topic, but yes, I agree. I know that people you know are more likely to perform forceful acts of any kind against you than a stranger would.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No, they point to people close to you, frighteningly so.

It just so happens that the figures are taken at relevance value by the gender data.

If you look at the relationship data, is not strangers, in the overwhelming majority of cases, who are the perpetrators.

... I was looking at gender as per the topic, but yes, I agree. I know that people you know are more likely to perform forceful acts of any kind against you than a stranger would.

The gender of the perpetrator, while relevant to the topic, only makes one thing clear:

Men in households are more likely to try and do something against someone of their family or friends because it's easier for them to do so, and because they're sick people, for the most part.

However, women are as capable of this, as well. It just so happens women are, for the most part, more mellow in the household than men, and men are raised differently than girls within a household. That's a behavior trait that doesn't exactly parallel the experiences in the street though, and which is why the objection that we should focus on rape in the streets misses the point because women can walk about rather well out there without being sexually abused is somewhat on point, although I'd argue that just because stranger rapes have diminished it doesn't mean it's any less relevant, but the effort to eradicate it is proportionally disparate as opposed to close relationship abuse, since we're investing more money and resources into catching criminals in the street than within their own families and encouraging abused people to come out and say something while forgetting that, for many, coming out would mean betrayal.

[Mattopilos]

I agree, but the numbers sure as hell point to male perpetrators. Definitely and male and female problem for rape and domestic violence.

Well, the numbers point to somewhat more male perpetrators of rape, but somewhat more female perpetrators of domestic violence.

Both probably within 10% of the average.

Fair enough. Are the numbers skewed due to reporter's bias as well? That would explain why it is always reported as more men than women as perpetrators. Also found statistics saying that domestic violence against men (in Australia) is quite higher than I expected:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensl ... l55v7.html
Gender roles plays a part in how people feel about reporting it, I think, for both men and women.

[Mattopilos]

... I was looking at gender as per the topic, but yes, I agree. I know that people you know are more likely to perform forceful acts of any kind against you than a stranger would.

The gender of the perpetrator, while relevant to the topic, only makes one thing clear:

Men in households are more likely to try and do something against someone of their family or friends because it's easier for them to do so, and because they're sick people, for the most part.

However, women are as capable of this, as well. It just so happens women are, for the most part, more mellow in the household than men, and men are raised differently than girls within a household. That's a behavior trait that doesn't exactly parallel the experiences in the street though, and which is why the objection that we should focus on rape in the streets misses the point because women can walk about rather well out there without being sexually abused is somewhat on point, although I'd argue that just because stranger rapes have diminished it doesn't mean it's any less relevant, but the effort to eradicate it is proportionally disparate as opposed to close relationship abuse.

Yeah, that is why I always point to gender roles playing a part in why it occurs. And yes, it should be a focus on all points where domestic violence and rape occur, whether by strangers or known persons.

[Giovenith]

I've always been just as uncomfortable being told I possess certain talents and strengths as a woman as certain weaknesses. Possibly even more so. I don't like being told that I am "mysterious" or have the power to influence others. I don't like being told that it's my job to spread "love" to the world. I don't like people underestimating me, whether that be my capacity to help or wreck.

It's my belief that achieving true personal power comes from being equally honest about both your strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know the former, you won't know what you can do. If you don't know the latter, you won't know how to overcome them, protect them from being exploited by others, and avoid screwing up things you have no business dealing with and therefore delegitimizing yourself. You are neither special or worthless based on your gender, man or woman.

[Mattopilos]

I've always been just as uncomfortable being told I possess certain talents and strengths as a woman as certain weaknesses. Possibly even more so. I don't like being told that I am "mysterious" or have the power to influence others. I don't like being told that it's my job to spread "love" to the world. I don't like people underestimating me, whether that be my capacity to help or wreck.

I agree. To try and create a label for one's self purely from their gender (as gender roles do) is self-destructive in that sense. To express oneself by what you want to be expressed by is more important, imo. I mean, I hardly go around and 'act like a man' or to appear masculine because that is what is expected - do what you want. To underestimate someone on a single label, such as gender, is as bad as overestimating someone based on their gender.

It's my belief that achieving true personal power comes from being equally honest about both your strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know the former, you won't know what you can do. If you don't know the latter, you won't know how to overcome them, protect them from being exploited by others, and avoid screwing up things you have no business dealing with and therefore delegitimizing yourself. You are neither special or worthless based on your gender, man or woman.

Exactly - no one is perfect, and no one can ever be. To work on your weaknesses and make use of your strengths is important. To equalize the genders in the understanding there are strengths and weaknesses, whether that is part of their gender or part of the 'gender role', is an important thing to do, and a goal that should be aimed for. We must embrace ourselves on weaknesses and strengths.

[Galloism]

Well, the numbers point to somewhat more male perpetrators of rape, but somewhat more female perpetrators of domestic violence.

Both probably within 10% of the average.

Fair enough. Are the numbers skewed due to reporter's bias as well? That would explain why it is always reported as more men than women as perpetrators. Also found statistics saying that domestic violence against men (in Australia) is quite higher than I expected:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensl ... l55v7.html
Gender roles plays a part in how people feel about reporting it, I think, for both men and women.

Well, keep in mind that for men who are victims of rape, mockery is often the common refrain, along with being told by therapists that until they take responsibility for being raped, they'll never get past it.

Or they get told they can't be raped so often they eventually internalize that so it wasn't rape, because people said they can't be raped, etc.


For DV, the problems are different. Men who are victims of DV are more likely to be arrested than their perpetrators. So you can look at "number of men who are charged with DV" and think "number of men who are charged with DV or were victims of DV and charged anyway". Largely thanks to a societal blind spot along with feminist support of traditional gender roles, men who are victims of DV have roughly nowhere to turn.


So yes, even though men make up somewhere around half of rape victims (at least among adults) and a little over half of DV victims (again, among adults), they have to suffer in silence because the most likely result of attempting to complain is being arrested.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I've always been just as uncomfortable being told I possess certain talents and strengths as a woman as certain weaknesses. Possibly even more so. I don't like being told that I am "mysterious" or have the power to influence others. I don't like being told that it's my job to spread "love" to the world. I don't like people underestimating me, whether that be my capacity to help or wreck.

It's my belief that achieving true personal power comes from being equally honest about both your strengths and weaknesses. If you don't know the former, you won't know what you can do. If you don't know the latter, you won't know how to overcome them, protect them from being exploited by others, and avoid screwing up things you have no business dealing with and therefore delegitimizing yourself. You are neither special or worthless based on your gender, man or woman.

Everyone does this typing and it is uncomfortable. Many people tend to attribute things to other people that don't even belong.

For instance, I am told I am a smart guy, with a lot of potential, and a kind person who is a humanitarian and that I should have picked a career like medicine where I could help people, or pastor of a church.

People honestly have no idea about how much I resented being told that my career and helping others was more important than my own happiness, and whenever I pointed this out to them they were just like "well, yea, but you're going to achieve great things, who cares about women when they come and go when you can do great things with your mind and become the next top doctor in the field?"

I don't want to be the next top doctor, or top physicist, or the next pope. I just want to live my life in peace.

Everyone needs to learn that people are going to do what they feel they can do. And nothing more. Men are going to do their own thing as individuals and women will do their own thing as individuals, many of them will get together and plan how to do their own thing as a couple and when they have children how to do their own thing as parents, and the world keeps revolving.

[Mattopilos]

Fair enough. Are the numbers skewed due to reporter's bias as well? That would explain why it is always reported as more men than women as perpetrators. Also found statistics saying that domestic violence against men (in Australia) is quite higher than I expected:
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensl ... l55v7.html
Gender roles plays a part in how people feel about reporting it, I think, for both men and women.

Well, keep in mind that for men who are victims of rape, mockery is often the common refrain, along with being told by therapists that until they take responsibility for being raped, they'll never get past it.

Or they get told they can't be raped so often they eventually internalize that so it wasn't rape, because people said they can't be raped, etc.


For DV, the problems are different. Men who are victims of DV are more likely to be arrested than their perpetrators. So you can look at "number of men who are charged with DV" and think "number of men who are charged with DV or were victims of DV and charged anyway". Largely thanks to a societal blind spot along with feminist support of traditional gender roles, men who are victims of DV have roughly nowhere to turn.


So yes, even though men make up somewhere around half of rape victims (at least among adults) and a little over half of DV victims (again, among adults), they have to suffer in silence because the most likely result of attempting to complain is being arrested.

Geesh, a systematic problem it is :^/ The idea a man cannot be raped seems wide-spread. It is harmful, to say the least. So yeah, they likely make a little under half, or not so much a complete minority as some think, but the way the crimes are reported is skewed due to the frequency in which men and women are arrested is different? That sounds logical, given I know that is how they collect most data on 'crimes committed'.

[Mattopilos]

-snip-

Honestly, I think that is a factor in why I turned to rational egoism - the idea that my happiness or desires were automatically lower than the expectations that people had of me is something that infuriates me. You do what you want to do, for no reason that it is what you want to do. That sounds rational to me.

[Galloism]

Well, keep in mind that for men who are victims of rape, mockery is often the common refrain, along with being told by therapists that until they take responsibility for being raped, they'll never get past it.

Or they get told they can't be raped so often they eventually internalize that so it wasn't rape, because people said they can't be raped, etc.


For DV, the problems are different. Men who are victims of DV are more likely to be arrested than their perpetrators. So you can look at "number of men who are charged with DV" and think "number of men who are charged with DV or were victims of DV and charged anyway". Largely thanks to a societal blind spot along with feminist support of traditional gender roles, men who are victims of DV have roughly nowhere to turn.


So yes, even though men make up somewhere around half of rape victims (at least among adults) and a little over half of DV victims (again, among adults), they have to suffer in silence because the most likely result of attempting to complain is being arrested.

Geesh, a systematic problem it is :^/ The idea a man cannot be raped seems wide-spread. It is harmful, to say the least. So yeah, they likely make a little under half, or not so much a complete minority as some think,

Well, based on my reading of the data, men probably make up slightly over half of the rape victims, but probably also somewhat over half of the perpetrators.

It's a little weird, but if you look at my CDC report, a man anally raped by another man is raped, while a man raped vaginally by a woman is not raped but made to penetrate (I count that as raped anyway). You'll note that, in the past 12 months, the number of men penetrated either orally by a penis or anally by a penis or foreign object is too small to make a reliable estimate, but that's not the same as "zero". It's very probable that, although the amount of men raped by being made to penetrate is slightly under the number of women raped, the men raped by being penetrated (where an overwhelming proportion of perpetrators are male) is probably sufficient to push them over the top.

In any case however, the number of men and women raped, year by year, is roughly the same. It's not the oppression olympics. I'm satisfied with "roughly equal". We don't have to drill down and get the exact split.

but the way the crimes are reported is skewed due to the frequency in which men and women are arrested is different? That sounds logical, given I know that is how they collect most data on 'crimes committed'.

Yes. When you arrest most of the men who actually commit DV, and a substantial proportion of the men who are victims of DV, while arresting very few of the women who actually commit DV, and basically none of the women who are victims of DV, strangely, men show up prominently in the arrest data.

[Costa Fierro]

Yes. When you arrest most of the men who actually commit DV, and a substantial proportion of the men who are victims of DV, while arresting very few of the women who actually commit DV, and basically none of the women who are victims of DV, strangely, men show up prominently in the arrest data.

And then the data is presented as men being overwhelmingly violet towards women and thus fulfills modern feminist narratives of the "eternal aggressor" and thus government policies in relation to domestic violence are constructed with the biased criminal data in mind, although I get the distinct impression that government policy isn't really directed at stopping domestic violence, just putting it back down to levels where they don't constitute a national shame.

[The Grene Knyght]

Yes. When you arrest most of the men who actually commit DV, and a substantial proportion of the men who are victims of DV, while arresting very few of the women who actually commit DV, and basically none of the women who are victims of DV, strangely, men show up prominently in the arrest data.

And then the data is presented as men being overwhelmingly violet towards women and thus fulfills modern feminist narratives of the "eternal aggressor" and thus government policies in relation to domestic violence are constructed with the biased criminal data in mind, although I get the distinct impression that government policy isn't really directed at stopping domestic violence, just putting it back down to levels where they don't constitute a national shame.

yeah governments are pretty shit at addressing anything that won't directly affect their popularity and/or their ability to rule.

[Mattopilos]

And then the data is presented as men being overwhelmingly violet towards women and thus fulfills modern feminist narratives of the "eternal aggressor" and thus government policies in relation to domestic violence are constructed with the biased criminal data in mind, although I get the distinct impression that government policy isn't really directed at stopping domestic violence, just putting it back down to levels where they don't constitute a national shame.

yeah governments are pretty shit at addressing anything that won't directly affect their popularity and/or their ability to rule.

Here-Here. They like a focus on what is the largest outrage, instead of what would eliminate the problem, even if it goes against so one-sided narrative.

[Costa Fierro]

yeah governments are pretty shit at addressing anything that won't directly affect their popularity and/or their ability to rule.

Here-Here. They like a focus on what is the largest outrage, instead of what would eliminate the problem, even if it goes against so one-sided narrative.

Hooray for public relations. I mean from a political perspective it's understandable because negative PR is always going to be an issue and minimizing the threat posed by outraged groups is always going to take precedence as opposed to doing anything substantial. And feminists know if they can scream loudly enough, their views will be taken more seriously, even if they're based on heavily skewed data or complete fabrications. That's what makes me extremely concerned with the radicalization of mainstream feminism.

[Wallenburg]

And then the data is presented as men being overwhelmingly violet towards women and thus fulfills modern feminist narratives of the "eternal aggressor" and thus government policies in relation to domestic violence are constructed with the biased criminal data in mind, although I get the distinct impression that government policy isn't really directed at stopping domestic violence, just putting it back down to levels where they don't constitute a national shame.

yeah governments are pretty shit at addressing anything that won't directly affect their popularity and/or their ability to rule.

To be honest, governments could easily bring domestic violence against men to the forefront of politics and get quite a lot of support to combat that violence. The problem is that most politicians don't consider it worth the effort. Sure, they could secure reelection on a platform of genuine good work, but too many of them want to play it safe, lest a bunch of SJWs bombard them with outrage about how dare they try to reduce violent crime.

[The Grene Knyght]

Here-Here. They like a focus on what is the largest outrage, instead of what would eliminate the problem, even if it goes against so one-sided narrative.

Hooray for public relations. I mean from a political perspective it's understandable because negative PR is always going to be an issue and minimizing the threat posed by outraged groups is always going to take precedence as opposed to doing anything substantial. And feminists know if they can scream loudly enough, their views will be taken more seriously, even if they're based on heavily skewed data or complete fabrications. That's what makes me extremely concerned with the radicalization of mainstream feminism.

So it seems we're all in agreement lets dismantle the state.

[Wallenburg]

Hooray for public relations. I mean from a political perspective it's understandable because negative PR is always going to be an issue and minimizing the threat posed by outraged groups is always going to take precedence as opposed to doing anything substantial. And feminists know if they can scream loudly enough, their views will be taken more seriously, even if they're based on heavily skewed data or complete fabrications. That's what makes me extremely concerned with the radicalization of mainstream feminism.

So it seems we're all in agreement lets dismantle the state.

[FelrikTheDeleted]

So it seems we're all in agreement lets dismantle the state.

It's time for the....

To rise.