The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Wallenburg]

Wait, if feminists advocating men's rights from a male perspective get ostracized by the feminist community, WHERE'S MY CONDEMNATION? HAVE AT ME, RADFEMS!

[Natapoc]

Sadly, although I recall reading it and the mostly supportive comments from other feminists, I do not remember the URL. Luckily this is unnecessary. A feminist man already posted affirming that he's had such discussions without being rejected by feminists.

Probably imaginary.

What's imaginary? Besides the lizard womynz controlling my brain.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, I think you're right when it comes to MRAs. It would have to be a different kind of group or groups.

The current MRM is too focused on opposing feminism to work in conjunction with it. Moderate feminism would need to have a moderate MRM in order to achieve the balance of egalitarianism that both movements claim to be espousing.

Reminds me of Republicans and Democrats. In theory, they govern by balancing each other out. In practice, it's generally more that they're at each others' throats and the nation suffers for it.

Similarly, in feminism and MRM there are moderates who are willing to compromise but they are silenced by the vitriolic radicals who declare that, no, we cannot have equality while the other side still exists. We have found the enemy, and we will not negotiate with imps of Satan. That is the problem with how the movements currently treat each other. It's a nuclear arms race and neither side has a strong enough faction willing to compromise, so both sides simply have to double down on radicalism and hope that the other side dies out first.

Oh, I know. They aren't really focusing on men's issues, but rather on how to be ITGs against feminists. And granted, some feminists do things that grate but if anything, on either side, is to be done, the high school drama needs to end.

[Galloism]

Probably imaginary.

What's imaginary? Besides the lizard womynz controlling my brain.

This supposed mainstream article from a feminist site addressing these issues.

[Natapoc]

It won't happen until more men care about men's rights.

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

You get death threats?

[Wallenburg]

It won't happen until more men care about men's rights.

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

How are they getting your email address?

[Galloism]

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

You get death threats?

3 or 4 a month, on average.

[Galloism]

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

How are they getting your email address?

I use a certain anonymous email service to help male victims of rape and DV. It comes to that box.

[Natapoc]

Wait, if feminists advocating men's rights from a male perspective get ostracized by the feminist community, WHERE'S MY CONDEMNATION? HAVE AT ME, RADFEMS!

Okay. What mens rights issues do you support?

[Atomic Utopia]

Wait, if feminists advocating men's rights from a male perspective get ostracized by the feminist community, WHERE'S MY CONDEMNATION? HAVE AT ME, RADFEMS!

That is my question. I am a big supporter of the rights of men and women, a feminist if you will, mainly focusing on the elimination of gender standards for all, and I never get criticized by most people. I believe it is the extreme that produces such jewels that are fools, most feminists are not the extreme.

[Natapoc]

You get death threats?

3 or 4 a month, on average.

That's really messed up. I'm sorry to hear that.

Could you tell me a bit about who is sending the threats and what they state their motives are?

[Highfort]

Oh, I know. They aren't really focusing on men's issues, but rather on how to be ITGs against feminists. And granted, some feminists do things that grate but if anything, on either side, is to be done, the high school drama needs to end.

In the political arena, you accrue the most power by being extreme when your populace is ill-informed. This is because the extremists are the ones who shout and yell about there being a crisis and thus get the population riled up while the moderates, who often speak realistically, are not exciting enough to capture public attention.

The only way to counter this is by informing the public about the truth that both feminism and the MRM have good points and that both have flaws, and by pointing out that the movements could significantly improve if they worked on these flaws. If the MRMs stopped demonizing feminists and if feminists disowned those who essentially advocate preferential treatment for women over men, then perhaps we could have a civil conversation.

But while fringe feminists call for more protections for women and none for men, and while MRMs claim that feminists have never done anything for gender neutrality, we'll never have compromise. Compromise is neither politically-popular nor politically-tenable in this atmosphere.

[Galloism]

Wait, if feminists advocating men's rights from a male perspective get ostracized by the feminist community, WHERE'S MY CONDEMNATION? HAVE AT ME, RADFEMS!

That is my question. I am a big supporter of the rights of men and women, a feminist if you will, mainly focusing on the elimination of gender standards for all, and I never get criticized by most people. I believe it is the extreme that produces such jewels that are fools, most feminists are not the extreme.

I'll agree with you - but we've already cited several feminists in positions of power doing exactly what we've described - with great effectiveness.

I suggest you read the link I posted earlier.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, I know. They aren't really focusing on men's issues, but rather on how to be ITGs against feminists. And granted, some feminists do things that grate but if anything, on either side, is to be done, the high school drama needs to end.

In the political arena, you accrue the most power by being extreme when your populace is ill-informed. This is because the extremists are the ones who shout and yell about there being a crisis and thus get the population riled up while the moderates, who often speak realistically, are not exciting enough to capture public attention.

The only way to counter this is by informing the public about the truth that both feminism and the MRM have good points and that both have flaws, and by pointing out that the movements could significantly improve if they worked on these flaws. If the MRMs stopped demonizing feminists and if feminists disowned those who essentially advocate preferential treatment for women over men, then perhaps we could have a civil conversation.

But while fringe feminists call for more protections for women and none for men, and while MRMs claim that feminists have never done anything for gender neutrality, we'll never have compromise. Compromise is neither politically-popular nor politically-tenable in this atmosphere.

Like I said, the high school drama needs to end. Compromise won't be achieved if MRAs storm feminist conferences/activities, or if feminists storm MRA conferences/activities. The cycle of interminable bullshit will not permit advancement. So what can we do? How do we chop the heads of these many beasts so that we achieve a common ground with two main heads?

I am honestly asking.

[Keyboard Warriors]

It won't happen until more men care about men's rights.

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

Must go with the territory I guess. I've not once received a death threat nor any other negative attention for pointing out a legitimate issue that affects men but not so much women. You must talk in a far more extreme way than myself.

[Galloism]

3 or 4 a month, on average.

That's really messed up. I'm sorry to hear that.

Could you tell me a bit about who is sending the threats and what they state their motives are?

It varies. Some people think that by offering outreach services to men and not women, that i'm minimizing women who are victims of rape, and therefore I am some sort of sexist and need to die (if a woman contacts me, I will find a support center in her area to send her to. I don't handle it myself. I feel I lack the proper frame of reference.)

Some people accuse me of siding with men over women because I try to help male victims of DV get out of their situation and to not be abused anymore. I get death threats for that.

I have had a couple that somehow got my anonymous email - probably with some kind of subpoena i figure -, then proceeded to threaten me with death because their husbands left them after talking with me and realizing they didn't have to stay and endure the abuse. That they didn't deserve it.

[Galloism]

And THAT won't happen until we're allowed to talk about it without being smeared that we hate women or are anti-equality or whatever the fuck. I mean, public backlash is a thing people here - I advocate, but I do it online through a proxy anonymously. I'm afraid that if I actually dared use my real name to advance the cause that female-on-male rape would be taken seriously, I'd be harassed, threatened at home, and lose my job.

And yes - it really is that scary. I get enough death threats through my email as it is just trying to help male victims of rape and DV.

Must go with the territory I guess. I've not once received a death threat nor any other negative attention for pointing out a legitimate issue that affects men but not so much women. You must talk in a far more extreme way than myself.

Yes - I'm pretty extreme.

Namely, I think that men legitimately can be raped by women, and that it's common. I think husbands many times endure abuse from their wives, and that it's common. I offer support services for such victims. That's what gets me the hate.

[Wallenburg]

Wait, if feminists advocating men's rights from a male perspective get ostracized by the feminist community, WHERE'S MY CONDEMNATION? HAVE AT ME, RADFEMS!

Okay. What mens rights issues do you support?

Let's see...

Freedom from cultural expectations (machismo character, stoic breadwinner stereotype).
Recognition of and efforts against rape and domestic violence against males.
Elimination of the guilty until proven innocent trend in rape cases involving a male defendant.
Recognition of and action against staggering suicide rates among men.
Expansion of the draft to include women.

I probably support more, but those are the things that come to me most readily.

How are they getting your email address?

I use a certain anonymous email service to help male victims of rape and DV. It comes to that box.

That sounds terrifying. I hope you have a gun or something to protect yourself.

[Atomic Utopia]

I'll agree with you - but we've already cited several feminists in positions of power doing exactly what we've described - with great effectiveness.

I suggest you read the link I posted earlier.

Yes, and the feminist club at my highschool is not against that. Most feminists are not against equal rights, most feminists are not the type of people that stick their heads in the sand when they see reality, most feminists are like most people. To put it simply, feminism is not sexist, it is not in denial about such problems. Yes, some of the radicals are, but my own experience as a self described feminist is that most feminists are nothing like what your imagine.

In other words, most feminists know of what you mentioned and support dealing with the problem.

[Galloism]

I use a certain anonymous email service to help male victims of rape and DV. It comes to that box.

That sounds terrifying. I hope you have a gun or something to protect yourself.

I have several, and have for years, but I also have some technical skills that make me very difficult to track.

Not impossible, of course. Nothing is impossible.

[Highfort]

Like I said, the high school drama needs to end. Compromise won't be achieved if MRAs storm feminist conferences/activities, or if feminists storm MRA conferences/activities. The cycle of interminable bullshit will not permit advancement. So what can we do? How do we chop the heads of these many beasts so that we achieve a common ground with two main heads?

I am honestly asking.

Stop giving the radicals the ability to speak on your behalf. The problem is essentially that whenever someone like Mary Koss is brought up, she's defended (Natapoc just did this) as a feminist with some "wrong opinions".

No, no, Koss cannot be legitimately defended as a feminist if you want this conversation to advance. Because if she is defended as a feminist, that legitimizes MRM complaints that feminists protect women but not men. This, of course, leads to the vicious cycle where feminists respond by accusing MRMs of using male rights as a soapbox to destroy feminism and where MRMs respond by accusing feminists of only ever caring about issues where women are disadvantaged, and so on and so on.

Koss and her ilk need to be shunned from the feminist movement and told they are not welcome. Similar things need to happen with idiots in the MRM, though I'm not currently aware of any as I don't follow the movement very closely.

To heal the wound, first it must be cleaned.

[Swith Witherward]

I use a certain anonymous email service to help male victims of rape and DV. It comes to that box.

Do you have links to resources for male victim support? I still occasionally mentor teen girls, and one of my associates was asking about those the other day. I'd love to pass that info on to him.

[Wallenburg]

I'll agree with you - but we've already cited several feminists in positions of power doing exactly what we've described - with great effectiveness.

I suggest you read the link I posted earlier.

Yes, and the feminist club at my highschool is not against that. Most feminists are not against equal rights, most feminists are not the type of people that stick their heads in the sand when they see reality, most feminists are like most people. To put it simply, feminism is not sexist, it is not in denial about such problems. Yes, some of the radicals are, but my own experience as a self described feminist is that most feminists are nothing like what your imagine.

In other words, most feminists know of what you mentioned and support dealing with the problem.

I'm starting to wonder if it is the generation currently in school that is molding feminism into a more egalitarian movement. Internal revolution and whatnot.

[Natapoc]

Okay. What mens rights issues do you support?

Let's see...

Freedom from cultural expectations (machismo character, stoic breadwinner stereotype).
Recognition of and efforts against rape and domestic violence against males.
Elimination of the guilty until proven innocent trend in rape cases involving a male defendant.
Recognition of and action against staggering suicide rates among men.
Expansion of the draft to include women.

I agree with #1 and #2.
I believe we already have #3 but I agree that presumption of innocence is a good legal standard (note that legal standards are not the same as refusing to support victims till their rapists are convicted. Victims should be believed and supported but rapists still should have due process)
I agree with #4.
I disagree with #5 on the grounds that I believe the draft should be eliminated for everyone Right now. But if we did have a draft than you would be right.

This is my assessment as someone who has been called a radfem on this forum and who could be called a radfem under some definitions.

I don't propose to kick you out of feminism (as if that was even possible)

[Galloism]

I'll agree with you - but we've already cited several feminists in positions of power doing exactly what we've described - with great effectiveness.

I suggest you read the link I posted earlier.

Yes, and the feminist club at my highschool is not against that. Most feminists are not against equal rights, most feminists are not the type of people that stick their heads in the sand when they see reality, most feminists are like most people. To put it simply, feminism is not sexist, it is not in denial about such problems. Yes, some of the radicals are, but my own experience as a self described feminist is that most feminists are nothing like what your imagine.

In other words, most feminists know of what you mentioned and support dealing with the problem.

I'm glad your little club is aware of it. I do recommend you print that article and take it to them - see what happens.

It's not antifeminist in the slightest. It's very even-handed.

However, the only way feminism is going to actually become about equality again is if radfems are basically expelled from the movement. Since there's no official membership rolls, it's not like you can pull their card, but if every time Mary Koss is brought up you point out she's a misandrist and not a feminist, and everybody else does it, she can be effectively "expelled" from feminism after a fashion.

If every time a transphobe feminist speaks, people speak up to say that she's not a feminist because she hates transgenders, they can be effectively "expelled" after a fashion.

Do to them what you (and I mean the general you) has done to Warren Farrell and is now doing to Cassie Jay. Get it done, then come back to me.