The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Mattopilos]

Probably both - which is more is questionable.

In my service where I try to counsel men who have been raped, those who have decided to approach their rapist on the subject (which frequently happens when she is a wife or girlfriend) is near universally met with incredulity.

Like he's trying to explain how he was kidnapped by aliens.

But, then again, that's the reaction often received from friends or family as well, of both genders. So it's a very serious problem cutting across both genders.

That is the worst part of rape culture of course - the feeling of alienation one has from people they know, as if they are seen as sub-human, or they are to blame for what happened to them. It is pretty much universal in rape cases, as you are saying.

[Jello Biafra]

My point is that it's possible to have a (standard) rape culture, where men rape women because men "want it", and at the same time have a (reverse) rape culture, where women rape men because men "want it".
And as far as who is to blame for this? I don't know. Who advances the idea that men "want it" more? Men, women, or both equally?

That is quite literally a contradiction in terms.

Edit: That sounds somewhat accusatory. It was amore an amused observation.

I can see how it seems that way, mostly because men don't actually "want it" all the time.

[Galloism]

Probably both - which is more is questionable.

In my service where I try to counsel men who have been raped, those who have decided to approach their rapist on the subject (which frequently happens when she is a wife or girlfriend) is near universally met with incredulity.

Like he's trying to explain how he was kidnapped by aliens.

But, then again, that's the reaction often received from friends or family as well, of both genders. So it's a very serious problem cutting across both genders.

That is the worst part of rape culture of course - the feeling of alienation one has from people they know, as if they are seen as sub-human, or they are to blame for what happened to them. It is pretty much universal in rape cases, as you are saying.

I wouldn't say they 'blame' male victims overmuch, at least not as a trend (by my observations of course).

It's more they don't believe it can actually happen, and wouldn't with video evidence from 14 angles and a taped confession, because people have been taught, for millennia, that rape is something men do and women suffer.

The perception is that a man raped by a woman is roughly as likely as being kidnapped by aliens, and taken just as seriously by most people.

[Mattopilos]

That is the worst part of rape culture of course - the feeling of alienation one has from people they know, as if they are seen as sub-human, or they are to blame for what happened to them. It is pretty much universal in rape cases, as you are saying.

I wouldn't say they 'blame' male victims overmuch, at least not as a trend (by my observations of course).

It's more they don't believe it can actually happen, and wouldn't with video evidence from 14 angles and a taped confession, because people have been taught, for millennia, that rape is something men do and women suffer.

The perception is that a man raped by a woman is roughly as likely as being kidnapped by aliens, and taken just as seriously by most people.

Ah, thanks for explaining it better. I agree, it is a view that must be challenged and removed.

[Galloism]

I wouldn't say they 'blame' male victims overmuch, at least not as a trend (by my observations of course).

It's more they don't believe it can actually happen, and wouldn't with video evidence from 14 angles and a taped confession, because people have been taught, for millennia, that rape is something men do and women suffer.

The perception is that a man raped by a woman is roughly as likely as being kidnapped by aliens, and taken just as seriously by most people.

Ah, thanks for explaining it better. I agree, it is a view that must be challenged and removed.

Fortunately there is an odd feminist here and there taking this on now, as I can see because Jello helpfully made me search feverishly back through the thread to see what the hell she was talking about.

However, I still note that the feminist in question had to crouch her research in a whole paragraph of "women totally have it way worse" before even broaching the issue. That shows how slanted the narrative is, but I guess she had to start somewhere, so I approve of her efforts. Broadly speaking, anyway.

[Hirota]

The quote from the article was said by a feminist. It was a feminist who did the study that prompted this discussion.

Hmmmm, Kudos to feminism for not trying to excommunicate her... yet. Maybe thats because she's covered herself as Gallo noted.

Yes, I know there are feminists who are capable of recognising issues facing men - like I said in that post you quoted (but apparently did not read?) "It's not all feminists, but it's almost exclusively feminists who believe it's a zero sum game."

Yes, in part because of the idea that men "want it". This means that men are supposed to go out and have sex with women, and they can't be victimized by women. The idea that men "want it" was not conceived by feminists.

The idea that men "want it" is a fundamental pillar of feminist rape culture theory, and whilst it may not have been conceived by feminists or endorsed by all feminists, feminists have certainly done everything they can to maintain that myth.

[Gravlen]

I know, and it sometimes annoy me how "the west" is being used to really mean "(parts of) the US" while giving the impression that we're talking about a much larger area.

I wouldn't say "parts of", but I do want to clarify.

I rag on the CDC hard for the "men who are forced to have sex aren't raped". I think this is justified.

It is absolutely an apt criticism of the CDC data collecting.

[Gravlen]

There are similar debates going on in the UK, in France, in Australia, and in India. The problem is that the world has changed rapidly. Feminism is an ideology that has occupied for a long time, the main discussion of how this change should be managed, and the orthodoxy is being challenged now. I don't see this as a bad thing. The problem is that any challenge to that orthodoxy is often seen as woman hating even when it doesn't repudiate the idea that men and women should be equal.

Well really what I meant were things like, for example, people discuss how violence against men is utterly ignored by feminists, which is so utterly outside my experience, and reading a recent report by the EU I can see why - a majority of people in my country, according to them, believe that violence against men is "common, or very common." EDIT: I should note here that, while perhaps the problems being dealt with here are not so ignored as in the US, there are still numerous issues with how they are being dealt with here. In the example used earlier, for example, violence against women is rated to be 20% (or so) more common.
Also these ideas of feminism being run by a handful of radicals - we all see on tv just how crazy american college is, and I was recently informed by an american friend that no, whats on tv isn't a huge exaggeration. So maybe american colleges are full of crazy, radical, man-hating feminists. I find that incredibly hard to believe, but I can say for sure that that sort of thing is completely outside my own experience within the feminist movement.

You were perhaps reading this report?

Some interesting findings about European perceptions there - and a good example of variations over a relatively small geographical area. The differences are worrying too: 25 % of Romanian respondents say that sexual intercourse without consent is justified if the person is wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing, and 30 % say it's justified if the person is drunk or using drugs? (compared to 2% of those in Sweden, Spain and Denmark) Oy vey.

[Hirota]

Some interesting findings about European perceptions there - and a good example of variations over a relatively small geographical area. The differences are worrying too: 25 % of Romanian respondents say that sexual intercourse without consent is justified if the person is wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing, and 30 % say it's justified if the person is drunk or using drugs? (compared to 2% of those in Sweden, Spain and Denmark) Oy vey.

Romania isn't in the west.

I'm joking. But goodness, thats a high proportion.

Otherwise, that report seems a bit patchy. On one hand it's good that it talks about domestic violence against both men and women. It's also good that most responders thought that domestic violence against either gender is unacceptable, implying that the good work of figures like Erin Pizzey might have had an impact (in spite of the death threats she claimed to have received...from feminists).

Otherwise, it then takes a bit of a nose dive, it talks about "Awareness of support services for women" and fails to do the same for men. It doesn't talk about gender-based violence for men anywhere other than domestic violence.

Seems like it only did half a job.

[The Grene Knyght]

Some interesting findings about European perceptions there - and a good example of variations over a relatively small geographical area. The differences are worrying too: 25 % of Romanian respondents say that sexual intercourse without consent is justified if the person is wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing, and 30 % say it's justified if the person is drunk or using drugs? (compared to 2% of those in Sweden, Spain and Denmark) Oy vey.

Romania isn't in the west.

I'm joking. But goodness, thats a high proportion.

I clicked that link and forgot about it, so it went up into my 12 or so other tabs. I was flicking through them and came to that one and I was like "what the fuck was I researching...."
I'm in the middle of an essay on medieval history lol I have so many research tabs open...

[Neutraligon]

Hmm interesting. http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/d ... olumn.html

I hope that this lecture includes that men can be victims. I wonder if this includes barbers.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Name some, if you would.

I would love to know the names of major feminists pushing back against the continuing radicalization of Feminism.

If you were asking me, I'd list Wendy McElroy, Christina Hoff Sommers, Camille Paglia, Katie Roiphe, Erin Pizzey, Anne Cools and Karen DeCrow. Cassie Jaye is probably now on that list as she has entered the public eye for her film. They've come up a couple of times in this thread. Most of them get accused of not being "real feminists" and excommunicated from the faith. I don't know if they would count as "major feminists" because they are not seen as feminists for having the temerity to criticise the lunacy of large elements of feminism. Some get death threats for their criticism of the radfem orthodoxy.

Heck, probably the best known MRA, Warren Farrell started off as a champion of second wave feminism, was on the board of the National Organization for Women. Now he's the proverbial anti-christ for feminism (which since feminism shares characteristics with cult behaviour, is closer to the truth than it should be) simply for being so outrageous to point out that men have it tougher than women in a number of important areas.

So maybe the question we should be asking is for the names of major feminists pushing back against the continuing radicalization of Feminism who have not suffered death threats, excommunication etc.

I will accept your re-phrasing of my question.

Could anyone then now name major feminists who are not facing excommunication for daring to question the dogma?

[Jello Biafra]

The quote from the article was said by a feminist. It was a feminist who did the study that prompted this discussion.

Hmmmm, Kudos to feminism for not trying to excommunicate her... yet. Maybe thats because she's covered herself as Gallo noted.

Yes, I know there are feminists who are capable of recognising issues facing men - like I said in that post you quoted (but apparently did not read?) "It's not all feminists, but it's almost exclusively feminists who believe it's a zero sum game."

From the context of the quote I thought you were saying that not all of the people who believe it's a zero sum game are feminists, rather than that not all feminists believe it's a zero sum game. My mistake.

The idea that men "want it" is a fundamental pillar of feminist rape culture theory, and whilst it may not have been conceived by feminists or endorsed by all feminists, feminists have certainly done everything they can to maintain that myth.

We live in a culture that maintains that myth.

[Jello Biafra]

I will accept your re-phrasing of my question.

Could anyone then now name major feminists who are not facing excommunication for daring to question the dogma?

Lara Stemple, the feminist who did this study, is the director of UCLA's Health and Human Rights Law Project. I'm not sure how major this makes her.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I will accept your re-phrasing of my question.

Could anyone then now name major feminists who are not facing excommunication for daring to question the dogma?

Lara Stemple, the feminist who did this study, is the director of UCLA's Health and Human Rights Law Project. I'm not sure how major this makes her.

As Gallo pointed out, she did however couch her statement in such a way to protect her flanks from the more powerful sniping she's going to receive for the study.

It isn't wonderful that she has to do so, it isn't a quirk in the language here either. By stressing that she's not down-playing female suffering, she's stressing female suffering. It then reads that she's stating any male suffering as incidental.

[Hirota]

The idea that men "want it" is a fundamental pillar of feminist rape culture theory, and whilst it may not have been conceived by feminists or endorsed by all feminists, feminists have certainly done everything they can to maintain that myth.

We live in a culture that maintains that myth.

Which proves the influence third rate feminism has as a force for rape apologism.

[Jello Biafra]

We live in a culture that maintains that myth.

Which proves the influence third rate feminism has as a force for rape apologism.

No. Third wave feminism adopted the myth because it was already present in the culture. There's no reason to assume the boys in the "Why Rape is Funny" video in Galloism's signature (who told the guy who'd been raped by his teacher that he was lucky) were feminists.

[Hirota]

Which proves the influence third rate feminism has as a force for rape apologism.

No. Third wave feminism adopted the myth because it was already present in the culture. There's no reason to assume the boys in the "Why Rape is Funny" video in Galloism's signature (who told the guy who'd been raped by his teacher that he was lucky) were feminists.

Except that is not what was claimed.

I said (regarding rape culture only affecting women):

The idea that men "want it" is a fundamental pillar of feminist rape culture theory, and whilst it may not have been conceived by feminists or endorsed by all feminists, feminists have certainly done everything they can to maintain that myth.

Proving I'm already well aware that feminism probably did not create that particular myth, but thanks for trying to femsplain.

You then said that we are in a culture that maintains that myth, I responded saying that proves feminism's influence, and then you respond with your nonsensical response that feminism didn't invent it. Thats completely irrelevant, and frankly thats twice you've inadvertently strawmanned.

[Jello Biafra]

You then said that we are in a culture that maintains that myth, I responded saying that proves feminism's influence, and then you respond with your nonsensical response that feminism didn't invent it. Thats completely irrelevant

No, it's entirely relevant. The myth was already present in the culture. If feminism weren't talking about the myth, it would still be present in the culture to almost the same degree, if not entirely to the same degree. Your logic is backwards; you're putting the cart before the horse.

[Chessmistress]

Which proves the influence third rate feminism has as a force for rape apologism.

No. Third wave feminism adopted the myth because it was already present in the culture. There's no reason to assume the boys in the "Why Rape is Funny" video in Galloism's signature (who told the guy who'd been raped by his teacher that he was lucky) were feminists.

Have you ever considered the possibility that Feminism didn't simply "adopted the myth" but implicitly recognised a difference in behavior that is at least partially due biology and then real?
Personally I'm pretty sure that the differences in sexual behavior are smaller and not so absolute as our society enforces, but I'm also sure that differences in mating strategies are a biological reality.

[Des-Bal]

No, it's entirely relevant. The myth was already present in the culture. If feminism weren't talking about the myth, it would still be present in the culture to almost the same degree, if not entirely to the same degree. Your logic is backwards; you're putting the cart before the horse.

So feminism is supporting harmful traditional narratives and acting as the perfect antithesis to gender equality in areas where those narratives hurt men. That's not a problem or anything.

[Chessmistress]

No, it's entirely relevant. The myth was already present in the culture. If feminism weren't talking about the myth, it would still be present in the culture to almost the same degree, if not entirely to the same degree. Your logic is backwards; you're putting the cart before the horse.

So feminism is supporting harmful traditional narratives and acting as the perfect antithesis to gender equality in areas where those narratives hurt men. That's not a problem or anything.

As said, such "traditional narrative" it's very likely to be very inflated, exaggerated, but also to have a biological basis: differences in mating strategies between sexes can be observed in all the mammals.
I think that saying that "all men always want it" it's wrong, but I don't think it would be totally wrong to suppose, given the reality of differences in mating strategies, that most (not all) men are hardwired to a default "yes" while most (not all) women are hardwired to a default "no". Hence why the requests of Indian and Israelian Feminists make sense, when we also take in account the unbalancement of power within a patriarchal society.

[Jello Biafra]

No. Third wave feminism adopted the myth because it was already present in the culture. There's no reason to assume the boys in the "Why Rape is Funny" video in Galloism's signature (who told the guy who'd been raped by his teacher that he was lucky) were feminists.

Have you ever considered the possibility that Feminism didn't simply "adopted the myth" but implicitly recognised a difference in behavior that is at least partially due biology and then real?
Personally I'm pretty sure that the differences in sexual behavior are smaller and not so absolute as our society enforces, but I'm also sure that differences in mating strategies are a biological reality.

It may be true that men (in the absence of social attitudes that they always "want it") might for biological reasons want to have sex more than women do, but even with those social attitudes that inflate the degree that men "want it", they still don't want to have sex 100% of the time.

[Jello Biafra]

No, it's entirely relevant. The myth was already present in the culture. If feminism weren't talking about the myth, it would still be present in the culture to almost the same degree, if not entirely to the same degree. Your logic is backwards; you're putting the cart before the horse.

So feminism is supporting harmful traditional narratives and acting as the perfect antithesis to gender equality in areas where those narratives hurt men. That's not a problem or anything.

Yes, it's a problem - to the same degree that it's a problem when anyone else supports harmful traditional narratives. Feminism can't legitimately be singled out as contributing more to the problem than any other group or ideology that does so.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So feminism is supporting harmful traditional narratives and acting as the perfect antithesis to gender equality in areas where those narratives hurt men. That's not a problem or anything.

As said, such "traditional narrative" it's very likely to be very inflated, exaggerated, but also to have a biological basis: differences in mating strategies between sexes can be observed in all the mammals.
I think that saying that "all men always want it" it's wrong, but I don't think it would be totally wrong to suppose, given the reality of differences in mating strategies, that most (not all) men are hardwired to a default "yes" while most (not all) women are hardwired to a default "no". Hence why the requests of Indian and Israelian Feminists make sense, when we also take in account the unbalancement of power within a patriarchal society.

It would be totally wrong to suppose that men are "hardwired" to a default state of consent though.

I mean, it would not be wrong to take an educated guess at it and be proven wrong, but it would be wrong to claim that this is a fact of life when there's plenty of times men do not want, or need, sex; and we're selective on who we have sex and/or meaningful relationships with.