The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Wallenburg]

When they're just only beginning to foresee some power then they tend to immediatly switch to a much more aggressive and very direct rhetoric. That's in stark contrast with Feminist approach,

It is? Since when?

^^ This. What you describe seems to be quite along the lines of the feminist movement's approach.

[Giovenith]

It is? Since when?

^^ This. What you describe seems to be quite along the lines of the feminist movement's approach.

See, realizing this requires what we call "honest self reflection," which third wave feminism isn't exactly famous for. It would contradict their self-image as intellectual underdogs in a big bad patriarchal world. "Fightin the powa" isn't exciting anymore when you realize that you yourself are the powa.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38647822

Surprise to see this on the BBC. Good to hear India is progressing along too.

[Wallenburg]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38647822

Surprise to see this on the BBC. Good to hear India is progressing along too.

That's quite commendable!

[Mattopilos]

^^ This. What you describe seems to be quite along the lines of the feminist movement's approach.

See, realizing this requires what we call "honest self reflection," which third wave feminism isn't exactly famous for. It would contradict their self-image as intellectual underdogs in a big bad patriarchal world. "Fightin the powa" isn't exciting anymore when you realize that you yourself are the powa.

Neither is the second wave, mind you, which is something that has survived even now and affects the movement as-is. Chess is a great example of this.

[Mattopilos]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38647822

Surprise to see this on the BBC. Good to hear India is progressing along too.

That's quite commendable!

Yeah, nothing wrong with fighting for gender neutral laws.

[Stellonia]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

[Uiiop]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

Well they only gave on what they define as people so...hardly hypocritical if a group that doesn't fit the definition.

[The Grene Knyght]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

In what way?

[Mattopilos]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

...

Huh? That is not how it works at all. The abortion issue is something else entirely compared to the focus that intersectionality covers. That has to do with a ethical/philosophical view on if a fetus is 'truly human' and 'deserving of life', as well as if such a thing outweighs the the choice of the person that carries the baby and the person who played a part in it (father). This is quite the strawman imo, given I don't see fetuses as a "group", per say, and I find the view on this not entirely based on feminism, although it does play a large part in it. I personally see choice over "life", because the fetus is dependent on the mother, not the other way around; it cannot consent in any shape or form, and as such cannot make the choice of life or death, while the mother can; and I cannot stress this enough, most of the crap against abortion is religious crap that really should die out and not be used as the basis of our actions. You can disagree all you want, but don't expect me to take you seriously on the "The unborn are marginalized!". No, no they are not.

[Giovenith]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

I find that this is a threadjack in the making and you should probably take it up with the abortion megathread.

[Collatis]

Russia to decriminalize domestic abuse

This is pretty fucked up

[New Edom]

See, realizing this requires what we call "honest self reflection," which third wave feminism isn't exactly famous for. It would contradict their self-image as intellectual underdogs in a big bad patriarchal world. "Fightin the powa" isn't exciting anymore when you realize that you yourself are the powa.

Neither is the second wave, mind you, which is something that has survived even now and affects the movement as-is. Chess is a great example of this.

There are leaders in the 2nd Wave--Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Germaine Greer, Elizabeth Warren, Julie Bindel, Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, Gail Dines and Robert Jensen who have done their best to keep things polarized and are the patrons of the 3rd Wave intersectionalists. They maintain identity politics no matter the cost. You are quite right about this. Unfortunately whole new cadres have been raised up by these people and their followers. And so it goes on.

[Mattopilos]

Russia to decriminalize domestic abuse

This is pretty fucked up

This is fucked up for anyone, if this is the case.

Neither is the second wave, mind you, which is something that has survived even now and affects the movement as-is. Chess is a great example of this.

There are leaders in the 2nd Wave--Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Germaine Greer, Elizabeth Warren, Julie Bindel, Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, Gail Dines and Robert Jensen who have done their best to keep things polarized and are the patrons of the 3rd Wave intersectionalists. They maintain identity politics no matter the cost. You are quite right about this. Unfortunately whole new cadres have been raised up by these people and their followers. And so it goes on.

I tend not to follow people, that usually helps. The difference is that many 2nd wavers tend to ignore intersectional views for being 'divisive', much like Marxists do with anarchists.

[Tahar Joblis]

Neither is the second wave, mind you, which is something that has survived even now and affects the movement as-is. Chess is a great example of this.

There are leaders in the 2nd Wave--Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Germaine Greer, Elizabeth Warren, Julie Bindel, Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, Gail Dines and Robert Jensen who have done their best to keep things polarized and are the patrons of the 3rd Wave intersectionalists. They maintain identity politics no matter the cost. You are quite right about this. Unfortunately whole new cadres have been raised up by these people and their followers. And so it goes on.

The idea that there is a distinct "3rd Wave," or even "4th Wave," is not, I think, correct; and this is part of the reason.

The other reason that it's really inappropriate to talk about a "3rd Wave" is because the "1st Wave" of feminism lasted for about seventy years - in the US, the "wave" was clearly in progress after the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848, and still vigorous all the way up to the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920.

That's 72 years, even if you trim out the preludes before 1848 and the continuing efforts in the 1920s (ERA being proposed, for example). As a movement, it went through various shifts in ideology, methods, and priorities over time. There was no real interregnum in feminist activity or movement participation between the "2nd Wave" and "3rd Wave," and the leaders of feminism in the 1990s (the time at which, theoretically, the "3rd Wave" was in swing were almost all feminists who started their career during the "2nd Wave." There is no real boundary between "2nd Wave" and "3rd Wave" feminists; we can discern distinctions between liberal and radical feminists more easily.

In truth, we are in the second major wave of the feminist movement - fifty years into it. Claims otherwise are born of some combination of hubris, ignorance, or a desire to make some sort of marketing pitch.

(Mind you, it's perfectly normal for feminists to claim the existence of a fourth wave.)

[Mattopilos]

There are leaders in the 2nd Wave--Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Germaine Greer, Elizabeth Warren, Julie Bindel, Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, Gail Dines and Robert Jensen who have done their best to keep things polarized and are the patrons of the 3rd Wave intersectionalists. They maintain identity politics no matter the cost. You are quite right about this. Unfortunately whole new cadres have been raised up by these people and their followers. And so it goes on.

In truth, we are in the second major wave of the feminist movement - fifty years into it. Claims otherwise are born of some combination of hubris, ignorance, or a desire to make some sort of marketing pitch.

I think you need to look into the history of the movements and why they are distinct - there were splits in the ideas of the movements, leading to the newer waves. The largest split would be that of sex-positivism and rejecting essentialism for the third wave to distinguish it from the second, and the second wave is distinguished from the first by means of focusing more on sexuality and birth rights, as well as domestic abuse and rape cases, while the first wave had a major focus on voting rights.

[Philjia]

Russia to decriminalize domestic abuse

This is pretty fucked up

Glorious motherland will only be truly glorious when people can commit battery, apparently.

[Philjia]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

A foetus is only as sapiens as a pig. Pass the bacon.

[Ostroeuropa]

Let's talk about the womens march and its fine speakers, such as Donna Hylton.

https://i.imgtc.com/vMYOqhf.png

(TL;DR. 20 day kidnapping, torture, rape, murder.)

She still displays no remorse for her crimes. In fact, her sociopathic nature allowed her to appear at the march and decry how unfair the prison system is to women without a hint of irony. She maintains she was unjustly imprisoned but does not dispute the facts of the case. This is the basis on which she was invited to speak about the horrors of unjust imprisonment of women and how the prison system treats them.

Why was she there, why was she cheered, etc?

https://www.facebook.com/donna.hylton.9 ... 9992834099

There's plenty of posts showing adoration for her. And why?
Because she self-servingly got on a platform to frame her actions as making her the victim, and she was helped along to do it by the womens (supremacy) march attendees and organizers.

In fact it's not an isolated incident. Several speakers at the womens march were, functionally, only there to re-cast perpetrators as victims.

From the movement that gave us the duluth model, this is a troubling thing. Indeed, many of the icons of the movement are just abusive sociopaths, who use feminisms gynocentric framing to cast themselves as the heroines of the story, and people are all too happy to oblige. It's a new manifestation of the old problem of toxic femininity and damseling. If you look through, you'll see a staggering number of rapists and domestic abusers saying the words they need to say to get people on their side.

As a consequence of knowing this, the womens march becomes something of a spectacle in lack of self awareness.

What's mindblowing about this particular case, is that the investigators feel she got off too light as she was a woman. Yet, there she is.
Damseling.

I mean, as things go,
"That march where women cheered a torturer, rapist, and murderer talking about how her preferential sentence wasn't preferential enough." is pretty eye opening in terms of understanding we witnessed the largest supremacy march in US history.

Indeed, the entire prisons section was like watching the duluth model be repackaged.

At some point it ceases to be about womens rights and becomes something else.

[New Edom]

There are leaders in the 2nd Wave--Gloria Steinem, Robin Morgan, Germaine Greer, Elizabeth Warren, Julie Bindel, Jackson Katz, Michael Kimmel, Gail Dines and Robert Jensen who have done their best to keep things polarized and are the patrons of the 3rd Wave intersectionalists. They maintain identity politics no matter the cost. You are quite right about this. Unfortunately whole new cadres have been raised up by these people and their followers. And so it goes on.

The idea that there is a distinct "3rd Wave," or even "4th Wave," is not, I think, correct; and this is part of the reason.

The other reason that it's really inappropriate to talk about a "3rd Wave" is because the "1st Wave" of feminism lasted for about seventy years - in the US, the "wave" was clearly in progress after the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848, and still vigorous all the way up to the passage of the 19th Amendment in 1920.

That's 72 years, even if you trim out the preludes before 1848 and the continuing efforts in the 1920s (ERA being proposed, for example). As a movement, it went through various shifts in ideology, methods, and priorities over time. There was no real interregnum in feminist activity or movement participation between the "2nd Wave" and "3rd Wave," and the leaders of feminism in the 1990s (the time at which, theoretically, the "3rd Wave" was in swing were almost all feminists who started their career during the "2nd Wave." There is no real boundary between "2nd Wave" and "3rd Wave" feminists; we can discern distinctions between liberal and radical feminists more easily.

In truth, we are in the second major wave of the feminist movement - fifty years into it. Claims otherwise are born of some combination of hubris, ignorance, or a desire to make some sort of marketing pitch.

(Mind you, it's perfectly normal for feminists to claim the existence of a fourth wave.)

as
Yeah I get what you're saying. It's referred to often as being a thing. I personally see little difference between the two so called "Waves". 4th Wave seems to be a mixed effort as far as I can tell to do damage control for modern feminism.

[Mattopilos]

Yeah I get what you're saying. It's referred to often as being a thing. I personally see little difference between the two so called "Waves". 4th Wave seems to be a mixed effort as far as I can tell to do damage control for modern feminism.

You should try looking into it a bit further. The thing that determines the waves is the 'goals' they have.

[New Edom]

Yeah I get what you're saying. It's referred to often as being a thing. I personally see little difference between the two so called "Waves". 4th Wave seems to be a mixed effort as far as I can tell to do damage control for modern feminism.

You should try looking into it a bit further. The thing that determines the waves is the 'goals' they have.

How so?

[Dumb Ideologies]

Yeah I get what you're saying. It's referred to often as being a thing. I personally see little difference between the two so called "Waves". 4th Wave seems to be a mixed effort as far as I can tell to do damage control for modern feminism.

You should try looking into it a bit further. The thing that determines the waves is the 'goals' they have.

Let's be honest; the thing that determines the waves is the ever-increasing amount of sewage they're washing up.

[Mattopilos]

You should try looking into it a bit further. The thing that determines the waves is the 'goals' they have.

Let's be honest; the thing that determines the waves is the ever-increasing amount of sewage they're washing up.

Yes, lets lead in with an insult, that pushes a thread forward!

How so?

Well, I can give you what the aim of the first wave is off the bat: voting rights. That was a big thing around the time of the first wave. When that issue was solved, and a new 'goal' was set, so to speak, the second wave was defined, and I think that might have been things like abortion rights and such.

[Giovenith]

I find it very hypocritical that intersectionalist feminists would oppose the rights of the unborn, given that they are possibly the most marginalized and oppressed group of all.

A foetus is only as sapiens as a pig. Pass the bacon.

Pigs are about as smart as three year old children. The fetus is less sapient. Don't insult pigs like that.