Gravlen wrote:As has been shown, you clearly don't understand the issues you claim to fight for.
I do.
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by Costa Fierro » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:40 am
Gravlen wrote:As has been shown, you clearly don't understand the issues you claim to fight for.
by Neutraligon » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:49 am
Galloism wrote:The Grene Knyght wrote:I don't think any person or group controls feminist "policy." And a minority within a group can still be effective at fulfilling their aims. ISIS are a minority of Muslims (not that that comparison is entirely without its own problems, but you see what I mean)
Except there is a loud outcry of muslims against ISIS and similar groups. Muslims are fighting against ISIS in large numbers.
Where's the feminist outcry against any of the above? Where are they? Why are they not speaking? Why are they not pushing back?
If you want to make me believe you exist, push back.
by Mattopilos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:58 am
Gravlen wrote:Mattopilos wrote:
Let's be fair here: there is a group of feminists that want only women to be the talking point of it. I agree with there being a higher privilege for men, especially those that are white. HOWEVER, for rape statistics and domestic violence (Thanks Galloism for the data), they are not far enough apart to suggest it is JUST a woman's problem. Maybe more a women's problem, but not by enough to ignore other evidence. It needs to be a focus on all genders, and to remove privilege and the causes of rape and domestic abuse for all genders. To suggest all feminists or even MAJOR feminists want a focus on this is absurd. Some are... not so crash hot on having any focus on anything but women. Some have turned the idea of "feminism is for women' into something sacred: we must remove this sacredness.
EDIT: You are a TERF? My opinion of you continues to drop.
While I would point out that the statistics from the CDC is data from the US and isn't directly applicable to all parts of the world, I would absolutely not deny that sexual assault and domestic violence is a problem for both genders. There's different perspectives on them - for example, given that there are areas where there's a clear difference between the rate of victimization of women compared to men, it's even more important to make sure that the smaller group isn't forgotten that we actively deny their existence. As long as there are victims, no matter how many, they are entitled to support systems. We also have to examine why the group is smaller - is it because the rate of victimization is actually lower, or is it because the victims refuse to speak up and/or ask for help? This needs to be examined in every country, and steps taken to change the situation if it's the latter (which it is many places).
by Costa Fierro » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:06 am
Mattopilos wrote:Gravlen wrote:While I would point out that the statistics from the CDC is data from the US and isn't directly applicable to all parts of the world, I would absolutely not deny that sexual assault and domestic violence is a problem for both genders. There's different perspectives on them - for example, given that there are areas where there's a clear difference between the rate of victimization of women compared to men, it's even more important to make sure that the smaller group isn't forgotten that we actively deny their existence. As long as there are victims, no matter how many, they are entitled to support systems. We also have to examine why the group is smaller - is it because the rate of victimization is actually lower, or is it because the victims refuse to speak up and/or ask for help? This needs to be examined in every country, and steps taken to change the situation if it's the latter (which it is many places).
I agree. Better data collection and understanding of why it is being skewed (people not asking for help), and how we can assure that the problem is being dealt with effectively. I just used that data, given much of this discussion has been on feminism in the West, and America seems to be the main country of discussion on western feminism.
by Mattopilos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:33 am
Costa Fierro wrote:Mattopilos wrote:I agree. Better data collection and understanding of why it is being skewed (people not asking for help), and how we can assure that the problem is being dealt with effectively. I just used that data, given much of this discussion has been on feminism in the West, and America seems to be the main country of discussion on western feminism.
I get the feeling this is because American academics do the majority of the theorizing of these things and said ideas are exported overseas.
by Gravlen » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:59 am
Mattopilos wrote:Gravlen wrote:While I would point out that the statistics from the CDC is data from the US and isn't directly applicable to all parts of the world, I would absolutely not deny that sexual assault and domestic violence is a problem for both genders. There's different perspectives on them - for example, given that there are areas where there's a clear difference between the rate of victimization of women compared to men, it's even more important to make sure that the smaller group isn't forgotten that we actively deny their existence. As long as there are victims, no matter how many, they are entitled to support systems. We also have to examine why the group is smaller - is it because the rate of victimization is actually lower, or is it because the victims refuse to speak up and/or ask for help? This needs to be examined in every country, and steps taken to change the situation if it's the latter (which it is many places).
I agree. Better data collection and understanding of why it is being skewed (people not asking for help), and how we can assure that the problem is being dealt with effectively. I just used that data, given much of this discussion has been on feminism in the West, and America seems to be the main country of discussion on western feminism.
by Gravlen » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:02 am
Mattopilos wrote:Costa Fierro wrote:
I get the feeling this is because American academics do the majority of the theorizing of these things and said ideas are exported overseas.
Possibly. I am no statistician, so that could be the reason for all I know. I am sure that Europe has something similar, but I just haven't heard of it.
by Mattopilos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:04 am
Gravlen wrote:Mattopilos wrote:
Possibly. I am no statistician, so that could be the reason for all I know. I am sure that Europe has something similar, but I just haven't heard of it.
Swedish and French academic feminists are quite busy these days, to name just a couple. The language barriers are more likely the reasons for why the anglophone crowds are less exposed to them.
Gravlen wrote:I know, and it sometimes annoy me how "the west" is being used to really mean "(parts of) the US" while giving the impression that we're talking about a much larger area.
by The Grene Knyght » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:35 am
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by Jello Biafra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:37 am
Des-Bal wrote:Jello Biafra wrote:No. The notion that men and boys somehow "want it" is not inconsistent with rape culture. If anything, it's part of the theory.
Don't lie. Rape culture has no real definition but after a quick google search most definitions specify a culture that normalizes male on female sexual violence and while some are gender neutral none see fit to make mention of the fact that in the popular perception and even in the law rape of a male is treated as a lesser thing. Even in the most backwards "patriarchal" societies of the third world people believe men can't really be raped and women certainly can't be offenders. The discussion of rape culture does not include men as victims in any meaningful way and to say otherwise is just dishonest.
This is not something feminists care about.
by New Edom » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:37 am
Gravlen wrote:New Edom wrote:
Very well said. I agree completely.
I'm happy to hear that, since it must mean you've disowned your previous posts on the matter of consent. Just a reminder, when I previously have stated that men are not in a default state of consent, you've argued against it, dismissing it as a "feminist theory" and rejecting that approach to consent.
by Jello Biafra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:38 am
Mattopilos wrote:Jello Biafra wrote:No. The notion that men and boys somehow "want it" is not inconsistent with rape culture. If anything, it's part of the theory.
There is no definite 'theory' you speak of, so this confuses me. Maybe you mean "the view they push", but that is not the whole movement, but the part I mentioned in the comment above - the ones that 'cook the books'.
by Galloism » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:41 am
Gravlen wrote:Mattopilos wrote:I agree. Better data collection and understanding of why it is being skewed (people not asking for help), and how we can assure that the problem is being dealt with effectively. I just used that data, given much of this discussion has been on feminism in the West, and America seems to be the main country of discussion on western feminism.
I know, and it sometimes annoy me how "the west" is being used to really mean "(parts of) the US" while giving the impression that we're talking about a much larger area.
by Jello Biafra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:42 am
Hirota wrote:Tell that to the feminists. It's not all feminists, but it's almost exclusively feminists who believe it's a zero sum game.Jello Biafra wrote:This awareness-raising need not come at the expense of women victimized by sexual violence, Stemple emphasized to Rosin, because “compassion is not a finite resource.”
Utter delusional bullshit. Since the term first came into existence, large and influential swathes of Feminism have repeatedly portrayed rape culture as something only perpetuated by men, and only women are the victims.No. The notion that men and boys somehow "want it" is not inconsistent with rape culture. If anything, it's part of the theory.
by Mattopilos » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:42 am
Jello Biafra wrote:Mattopilos wrote:There is no definite 'theory' you speak of, so this confuses me. Maybe you mean "the view they push", but that is not the whole movement, but the part I mentioned in the comment above - the ones that 'cook the books'.
No, there is a theory of rape culture, or perhaps it would be more accurate to speak of theories of rape culture, as different feminists might have modified theories about what rape culture is - and of course, those feminists who do not believe that there is such a thing at all.
by New Edom » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:42 am
The Grene Knyght wrote:I kind of wonder if all the debates I have on this thread come from the fact that most of the people here are from North America...
by Jello Biafra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:47 am
Galloism wrote:The Grene Knyght wrote:The definition used by jello and myself is pretty common our side radical circles of feminism
And yet, if you look through Jello's posts, you'll find she exclusively uses rape culture to refer to things that have happened to female victims (none of which are excusable, btw), until myself or someone challenges her on it, whereupon she backs up to "well, I never SAID rape culture can't affect men. You're just jumping to conclusions."
It's like constantly railing on the rate at which white people get murdered and screaming that violence is out of control, but then when you point out how many black people are murdered every year, them screaming "well I never SAID violence doesn't affect black people."
To be fair, I respect Jello a lot, and I don't think it's a conscious thing. It comes with the toxicity of the term and how it's been used.
Galloism wrote:The Grene Knyght wrote:I don't think any person or group controls feminist "policy." And a minority within a group can still be effective at fulfilling their aims. ISIS are a minority of Muslims (not that that comparison is entirely without its own problems, but you see what I mean)
Except there is a loud outcry of muslims against ISIS and similar groups. Muslims are fighting against ISIS in large numbers.
Where's the feminist outcry against any of the above? Where are they? Why are they not speaking? Why are they not pushing back?
If you want to make me believe you exist, push back.
by The Grene Knyght » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:48 am
New Edom wrote:The Grene Knyght wrote:I kind of wonder if all the debates I have on this thread come from the fact that most of the people here are from North America...
There are similar debates going on in the UK, in France, in Australia, and in India. The problem is that the world has changed rapidly. Feminism is an ideology that has occupied for a long time, the main discussion of how this change should be managed, and the orthodoxy is being challenged now. I don't see this as a bad thing. The problem is that any challenge to that orthodoxy is often seen as woman hating even when it doesn't repudiate the idea that men and women should be equal.
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2019: x=-10.0,y=-9.90
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by New Edom » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:54 am
Jello Biafra wrote:Hirota wrote:Tell that to the feminists. It's not all feminists, but it's almost exclusively feminists who believe it's a zero sum game.
The quote from the article was said by a feminist. It was a feminist who did the study that prompted this discussion.Utter delusional bullshit. Since the term first came into existence, large and influential swathes of Feminism have repeatedly portrayed rape culture as something only perpetuated by men, and only women are the victims.
Yes, in part because of the idea that men "want it". This means that men are supposed to go out and have sex with women, and they can't be victimized by women. The idea that men "want it" was not conceived by feminists.
by Jello Biafra » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:58 am
New Edom wrote:Well, I'm sorry but that's dodging what Hirota is saying. It doesn't matter if feminsts invented this concept or not, and furthermore that's actually not the only reason why it's said that men can't be victimized by women.
First--feminists almost never refer to ways that women victimize others, even other women. For example even where I've read articles talking about dress code enforcement for girls that was unjustly applied, the articles rarely referred to how the women applying the code were personally unjust. The focus was on how patriarchy--men in particular--force women to dress in ways that undermine their agency. I can find several examples if you like.
Second, when feminists talk about things like sexual harassment or sexual assault they themselves don't talk about male victims or female victims of women except as a footnote. As I've said,e ven when other feminists have proposed it should be talked of more, it has not 'caught'. The preferred anrrative is about women and girls as victims of males alone.
Even when bullying by women and girls is discussed, women are not really held accountable--patriarchy is. Men are.
I think that because patriarchy is presented as ONLY being profitable for men--some men in particular--and terrible for women--never good in any way--that it is almost impossible to see anything but that women are victims and good, and men are perpetrators and bad.
Along with this is another notion that feminists rarely like to mention, that most ordinary men are considered expendable by most civilizations on earth. It is men who get sent to the hard physical labour jobs; it is men who get drafted for war. It is violence against men that is depicted as exciting or funny in movies and TV. So risks and harm to men are things we get desensitized to.
And we should not forget this: it's actually not to most men's benefit to show the same sensitivity and vulnerability that women are able to in most modern societies--when it comes to women. Feminists almost never addres women's preference for traditional behaviours from men, or the various studies surrounding this. The average man cannot help but see that women who appeal for protection get it more readily than men do; he cannot help but see that women are more attracted to men who show fewer emotional displays and are very purposeful and appear strong.
So there are complexities surrounding this issue. Feminists don't do much to challenge it. And in a way I could care less if they don't--but I do mind if they establish societal expectations that are almost impossible to fulfill and governments support them. Feminists may not have started all this, but when they tryt o shut down men's groups just because they don't follow feminist orthodoxy, or try to have people censored for challenging that orthodoxy, they're part of the problem.
by New Edom » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:59 am
The Grene Knyght wrote:New Edom wrote:
There are similar debates going on in the UK, in France, in Australia, and in India. The problem is that the world has changed rapidly. Feminism is an ideology that has occupied for a long time, the main discussion of how this change should be managed, and the orthodoxy is being challenged now. I don't see this as a bad thing. The problem is that any challenge to that orthodoxy is often seen as woman hating even when it doesn't repudiate the idea that men and women should be equal.
Well really what I meant were things like, for example, people discuss how violence against men is utterly ignored by feminists, which is so utterly outside my experience, and reading a recent report by the EU I can see why - a majority of people in my country, according to them, believe that violence against men is "common, or very common." EDIT: I should note here that, while perhaps the problems being dealt with here are not so ignored as in the US, there are still numerous issues with how they are being dealt with here. In the example used earlier, for example, violence against women is rated to be 20% (or so) more common.
Also these ideas of feminism being run by a handful of radicals - we all see on tv just how crazy american college is, and I was recently informed by an american friend that no, whats on tv isn't a huge exaggeration. So maybe american colleges are full of crazy, radical, man-hating feminists. I find that incredibly hard to believe, but I can say for sure that that sort of thing is completely outside my own experience within the feminist movement.
by Alvecia » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:00 am
Jello Biafra wrote:New Edom wrote:Well, I'm sorry but that's dodging what Hirota is saying. It doesn't matter if feminsts invented this concept or not, and furthermore that's actually not the only reason why it's said that men can't be victimized by women.
First--feminists almost never refer to ways that women victimize others, even other women. For example even where I've read articles talking about dress code enforcement for girls that was unjustly applied, the articles rarely referred to how the women applying the code were personally unjust. The focus was on how patriarchy--men in particular--force women to dress in ways that undermine their agency. I can find several examples if you like.
Second, when feminists talk about things like sexual harassment or sexual assault they themselves don't talk about male victims or female victims of women except as a footnote. As I've said,e ven when other feminists have proposed it should be talked of more, it has not 'caught'. The preferred anrrative is about women and girls as victims of males alone.
Even when bullying by women and girls is discussed, women are not really held accountable--patriarchy is. Men are.
I think that because patriarchy is presented as ONLY being profitable for men--some men in particular--and terrible for women--never good in any way--that it is almost impossible to see anything but that women are victims and good, and men are perpetrators and bad.
Along with this is another notion that feminists rarely like to mention, that most ordinary men are considered expendable by most civilizations on earth. It is men who get sent to the hard physical labour jobs; it is men who get drafted for war. It is violence against men that is depicted as exciting or funny in movies and TV. So risks and harm to men are things we get desensitized to.
And we should not forget this: it's actually not to most men's benefit to show the same sensitivity and vulnerability that women are able to in most modern societies--when it comes to women. Feminists almost never addres women's preference for traditional behaviours from men, or the various studies surrounding this. The average man cannot help but see that women who appeal for protection get it more readily than men do; he cannot help but see that women are more attracted to men who show fewer emotional displays and are very purposeful and appear strong.
So there are complexities surrounding this issue. Feminists don't do much to challenge it. And in a way I could care less if they don't--but I do mind if they establish societal expectations that are almost impossible to fulfill and governments support them. Feminists may not have started all this, but when they tryt o shut down men's groups just because they don't follow feminist orthodoxy, or try to have people censored for challenging that orthodoxy, they're part of the problem.
My point is that it's possible to have a (standard) rape culture, where men rape women because men "want it", and at the same time have a (reverse) rape culture, where women rape men because men "want it".
And as far as who is to blame for this? I don't know. Who advances the idea that men "want it" more? Men, women, or both equally?
by New Edom » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:01 am
Jello Biafra wrote:New Edom wrote:Well, I'm sorry but that's dodging what Hirota is saying. It doesn't matter if feminsts invented this concept or not, and furthermore that's actually not the only reason why it's said that men can't be victimized by women.
First--feminists almost never refer to ways that women victimize others, even other women. For example even where I've read articles talking about dress code enforcement for girls that was unjustly applied, the articles rarely referred to how the women applying the code were personally unjust. The focus was on how patriarchy--men in particular--force women to dress in ways that undermine their agency. I can find several examples if you like.
Second, when feminists talk about things like sexual harassment or sexual assault they themselves don't talk about male victims or female victims of women except as a footnote. As I've said,e ven when other feminists have proposed it should be talked of more, it has not 'caught'. The preferred anrrative is about women and girls as victims of males alone.
Even when bullying by women and girls is discussed, women are not really held accountable--patriarchy is. Men are.
I think that because patriarchy is presented as ONLY being profitable for men--some men in particular--and terrible for women--never good in any way--that it is almost impossible to see anything but that women are victims and good, and men are perpetrators and bad.
Along with this is another notion that feminists rarely like to mention, that most ordinary men are considered expendable by most civilizations on earth. It is men who get sent to the hard physical labour jobs; it is men who get drafted for war. It is violence against men that is depicted as exciting or funny in movies and TV. So risks and harm to men are things we get desensitized to.
And we should not forget this: it's actually not to most men's benefit to show the same sensitivity and vulnerability that women are able to in most modern societies--when it comes to women. Feminists almost never addres women's preference for traditional behaviours from men, or the various studies surrounding this. The average man cannot help but see that women who appeal for protection get it more readily than men do; he cannot help but see that women are more attracted to men who show fewer emotional displays and are very purposeful and appear strong.
So there are complexities surrounding this issue. Feminists don't do much to challenge it. And in a way I could care less if they don't--but I do mind if they establish societal expectations that are almost impossible to fulfill and governments support them. Feminists may not have started all this, but when they tryt o shut down men's groups just because they don't follow feminist orthodoxy, or try to have people censored for challenging that orthodoxy, they're part of the problem.
My point is that it's possible to have a (standard) rape culture, where men rape women because men "want it", and at the same time have a (reverse) rape culture, where women rape men because men "want it".
And as far as who is to blame for this? I don't know. Who advances the idea that men "want it" more? Men, women, or both equally?
by Galloism » Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:07 am
Jello Biafra wrote:New Edom wrote:Well, I'm sorry but that's dodging what Hirota is saying. It doesn't matter if feminsts invented this concept or not, and furthermore that's actually not the only reason why it's said that men can't be victimized by women.
First--feminists almost never refer to ways that women victimize others, even other women. For example even where I've read articles talking about dress code enforcement for girls that was unjustly applied, the articles rarely referred to how the women applying the code were personally unjust. The focus was on how patriarchy--men in particular--force women to dress in ways that undermine their agency. I can find several examples if you like.
Second, when feminists talk about things like sexual harassment or sexual assault they themselves don't talk about male victims or female victims of women except as a footnote. As I've said,e ven when other feminists have proposed it should be talked of more, it has not 'caught'. The preferred anrrative is about women and girls as victims of males alone.
Even when bullying by women and girls is discussed, women are not really held accountable--patriarchy is. Men are.
I think that because patriarchy is presented as ONLY being profitable for men--some men in particular--and terrible for women--never good in any way--that it is almost impossible to see anything but that women are victims and good, and men are perpetrators and bad.
Along with this is another notion that feminists rarely like to mention, that most ordinary men are considered expendable by most civilizations on earth. It is men who get sent to the hard physical labour jobs; it is men who get drafted for war. It is violence against men that is depicted as exciting or funny in movies and TV. So risks and harm to men are things we get desensitized to.
And we should not forget this: it's actually not to most men's benefit to show the same sensitivity and vulnerability that women are able to in most modern societies--when it comes to women. Feminists almost never addres women's preference for traditional behaviours from men, or the various studies surrounding this. The average man cannot help but see that women who appeal for protection get it more readily than men do; he cannot help but see that women are more attracted to men who show fewer emotional displays and are very purposeful and appear strong.
So there are complexities surrounding this issue. Feminists don't do much to challenge it. And in a way I could care less if they don't--but I do mind if they establish societal expectations that are almost impossible to fulfill and governments support them. Feminists may not have started all this, but when they tryt o shut down men's groups just because they don't follow feminist orthodoxy, or try to have people censored for challenging that orthodoxy, they're part of the problem.
My point is that it's possible to have a (standard) rape culture, where men rape women because men "want it", and at the same time have a (reverse) rape culture, where women rape men because men "want it".
And as far as who is to blame for this? I don't know. Who advances the idea that men "want it" more? Men, women, or both equally?
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