The NationStates Feminist Thread II

[Kelinfort]

"are you an irrational radical feminist? well here's a tip, get laid you fat piece of shit."

Damn son, don't cut people with that edge.

[The New Age Empire]

"are you an irrational radical feminist? well here's a tip, get laid you fat piece of shit."

Damn son, don't cut people with that edge.

Just saying, it's a quote from the youtube channel "TVFilthyFrank"

[Kelinfort]

Damn son, don't cut people with that edge.

Just saying, it's a quote from the youtube channel "TVFilthyFrank"

So is, "Ethics? In gaming Journalism? Ha...haha...hahahahahaha!"

[The New Age Empire]

Just saying, it's a quote from the youtube channel "TVFilthyFrank"

So is, "Ethics? In gaming Journalism? Ha...haha...hahahahahaha!"

lol

[Natapoc]

I'm not sure how we were ever supposed to tell the difference, but if you think you're too much in a state to post well, it's generally best to take a break.

Okay fuck it. I'm taking a holiday.

It's more a case of being too much of a state to deal with this crap anymore. I might get banned if I continue posting but that's not it. I'm close to giving up in general on this whole thing. Like you said, i'm tired. I'm tired and hysterical at the same time, and when i'm not, i'm crying out of empathy. During the day I volunteer and at night I argue online, I go to party meetings, I write letters, I donate. I do everything I fucking can and nothing makes a dent in it. I thought i'd be able to get by knowing I helped some but it's not enough. I can practically fucking feel the others out there. So I get ill and miss days, then feel like shit for missing days.

And it doesn't matter how much I argue, or rephrase my arguments, or what I try. Some people just don't get it. It's not just the feminist label thing. There's so much, and so many, it's overwhelming.

And i've started hating myself lately for feeling like this, which is what I was too ashamed to post earlier.

I get so tired of it too. I think my resolve is cracking. I just want to give up. I'll say there's four lights, 2+2=5. Please, make me believe it. I don't want to do this anymore. Take it away from me. It was just me and a dozen others. There aren't hundreds of thousands, millions, not getting help because of you people. I don't want to do it anymore. It's hurting my humanity and my empathy. I don't want to know these things. I want to be able to read the news or watch television again. I want to believe what you do. I want to be able to think i'm telling the truth without everyone hating me for it. I don't care if they're out there anymore, I just don't want to know. Make me believe it. I give up, you win.

I honestly feel that way. I can't do this anymore. I have to try ignoring it for a while. It's going to kill me otherwise. I'm taking a holiday, and I might not be back, I dunno. I might check in once or twice out of morbid curiosity to see replies to this, but that's it.

Just replying to help fulfill your morbid curiosity

If it's any consolation I think I know exactly how you feel. And although we're on opposite sides (I'd like your movement to be destroyed forever), I don't want you to be depressed or sad.

I stopped taking nation states seriously a while ago and I long ago stopped trying to dedicate my time to making well reasoned or well-sourced points for exactly this reason.

The average NSG poster deserves no more than 3 minutes of my time. If it's something interesting I may spend a bit more than that but I'm under no obligation to do people's research for them.

I found that I started to change my mindset from trying to persuade people to simply giving my opinion without caring all that much if a random NSer was going to misunderstand in the most clueless ways (and it's impressive how clueless Nsers can be sometimes).

Nationstates is not a good site for "activism". Most people don't think about what you say long enough to understand it and are mostly interested in using your post as a way to get their point across.

Think of nationstates like the republican debates.

Now take a deep breath and laugh at the absurdity of it all. There are far more important things in real life or even more appropriate online venues if you want to focus on activism.

I hope you feel better soon.

[The Archregimancy]

"are you an irrational radical feminist? well here's a tip, get laid you fat piece of shit."

Oh I'm sure they can afford it with all the welfare money the democrat's give them, they simply can't get laid because they are the most undesirable group to mate with. Honestly, ask ANY guy you know.

Charming.

You can both have a *** warning for trolling. ***

There are plenty of ways of attacking the perceived flaws in 'radical feminism' without suggesting that the best solution is for radical feminists to 'get laid'.

[New Edom]

I think he's just frustrated. There is a growing frustration about feminism. Venting isn't the end of the world. Sometimes the anger helps you clear your head and you can see things more clearly.

Most people who are really frustrated by feminism used to support feminism until they found that you can do that as lnog as you never really criticize feminism objectively, at which point you are called an ignorant fool at best and a misogynist at worst.

Yeah that's an accurate depiction. I used to think everyone was a feminist until I relized the socialist, anti-men cesspool that feminism really is. its sad really, went from such a noble goal to the laughing stock of the political world. Like, North Korea levels of laughing stock.

It is sad, because some of the ideas are really good, some of the questions raised are important to consider. Maybe at some point feminism will be like any other ideolgoy--People will realize that is what it is and that you can take it or leave it, or take some of it and not the rest. Let's hope it doesn't take dozens of wars and pogroms before that happens.

[The New Age Empire]

All I can say is it was worth it

[New Edom]

I get the burnout. It's a stage i went through; it's very frustrating.

The majority of feminists seem to see any criticism of feminism as being anti-feminist these days, and many supporters of feminism see the same thing.

I remember talking to a good friend, who insisted that the death threats against Anita Sarkeesian (let's not open that can of worms for a moment though) proved that there was rampant misogyny in the gaming community.

I pointed out that if we took that to be true that it still didn't prove anything, that one person's reprehensible behavior didn't make another person on the side of the angels.

This is the hard thing to accept: that many people who share your broad ideals can be stupid, arrogant and shallow in their thinking. That what you believe ought to be true is really just a concept or set of concepts. That just because say you believein evolutionary theory doesn't make you smart. That just because you believe in Jesus Christ sdoesn't make you a righteous person. So feminists may say so all they like, but they don't own the concept of equality, even for women.

I suspect Ostro struggles with the loneliness of standing alone against people who are just mouting latitudes and typing catch phrases to make themselves feel a part of what supposedly everyone they think of as decent believes. They ahvent thought about it, they prefer not to think about it.

I have another point of view. I've noticed how often there is a wall of silence when i ask hard questions. like not one feminist said "this is my plan" when I asked what they wanted practically done about rape culture. This is because there is no real plan. it's just ideological emotionalism. Hard facts, insistence on integrity and accountability and being ready to pin them down at a moment's notice. I also advocate not voting for people if they have a feminist agenda, and making it clear that you will not. Most ordinary people are just intimidated by them; they're a minority. Expose them for the lying hypocritical fanatics they are. If there are moderates, let them pick a side at last and choose humanity over their stupid ideology. It's time.

One thing that truly grates about Ostro's point is not that he has it, it's that he is very quick to generalize. Yes, there are awful feminists out there, just like there are shit MRAs. But in having a point, when he generalizes, he loses ground. It's much ado about nothing, a lot of sound and fury and nothing. When he lumps every feminist in the same boat, he loses me, for example. When he is ready to cast accusations without knowing shit about what someone else is doing, I have issues with that.

It is very infuriating when he categorically says I do not care about men's issues because I identify with feminism. In reality, his point is an unfounded attack. I have nothing to prove to him or anyone about what I am doing to make a difference, which I do try. That is personal. Part of what I do and none of his business or anyone else's for that matter. Those I care about know what I'm doing.

If he's so burned out that he cannot participate in this thread without generalizing, then by all means, he should leave. Because when he's that irrational, for whatever reasons, and I don't really care what those reasons are (if you're having a breakdown, leave and return to post when you have simmered down), if it is affecting his behavior and his ability to convey a message, he should indeed leave.

He's been told this, about his fucking penchant for generalizing out of what he encounters, over and over again. It is tiresome, it adds nothing to the debate, it doesn't do a thing and yes, it makes us not want to listen to him because we've heard the accusations already, and no matter how you try to talk to him, he doesn't listen because he has already made up his mind.

I understand his frustration. I agree that it is counterproductive but i've been there. A lot of the time it can seem like you make no headway, and so after a while you think "why bother"? But if you are also emotionally invested then it becomes crazy making.

In a sense, this is part of how the presentation works. Feminist hype is often presented as "oh you agree, you are acceptable." It's like many religions in that sense--you see panels of people having only 'angels ona pinhead' type disagreements whie generallya ccepting the ideology; you see actors saying 'I'm proud to be a feminist while crowds cheer, you hear a sad story and a smpathetic celebrity talks about how only feminism can save humanity.

So then imagine being outside that--just because you disagree with a few ideas, not the supposedly main idea.

Having said this, I agree that it is counterproductive. A person needs to accept their frustration, come out on teh other side with a plan according to their values and committment to stick to it even when it is difficult. Then he'll be able to be calmer even in the face of great provocation.

[Wallenburg]

Yeah that's an accurate depiction. I used to think everyone was a feminist until I relized the socialist, anti-men cesspool that feminism really is. its sad really, went from such a noble goal to the laughing stock of the political world. Like, North Korea levels of laughing stock.

There is so much wrong with that statement. I encourage you to actually talk to a feminist.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

One thing that truly grates about Ostro's point is not that he has it, it's that he is very quick to generalize. Yes, there are awful feminists out there, just like there are shit MRAs. But in having a point, when he generalizes, he loses ground. It's much ado about nothing, a lot of sound and fury and nothing. When he lumps every feminist in the same boat, he loses me, for example. When he is ready to cast accusations without knowing shit about what someone else is doing, I have issues with that.

It is very infuriating when he categorically says I do not care about men's issues because I identify with feminism. In reality, his point is an unfounded attack. I have nothing to prove to him or anyone about what I am doing to make a difference, which I do try. That is personal. Part of what I do and none of his business or anyone else's for that matter. Those I care about know what I'm doing.

If he's so burned out that he cannot participate in this thread without generalizing, then by all means, he should leave. Because when he's that irrational, for whatever reasons, and I don't really care what those reasons are (if you're having a breakdown, leave and return to post when you have simmered down), if it is affecting his behavior and his ability to convey a message, he should indeed leave.

He's been told this, about his fucking penchant for generalizing out of what he encounters, over and over again. It is tiresome, it adds nothing to the debate, it doesn't do a thing and yes, it makes us not want to listen to him because we've heard the accusations already, and no matter how you try to talk to him, he doesn't listen because he has already made up his mind.

I understand his frustration. I agree that it is counterproductive but i've been there. A lot of the time it can seem like you make no headway, and so after a while you think "why bother"? But if you are also emotionally invested then it becomes crazy making.

In a sense, this is part of how the presentation works. Feminist hype is often presented as "oh you agree, you are acceptable." It's like many religions in that sense--you see panels of people having only 'angels ona pinhead' type disagreements whie generallya ccepting the ideology; you see actors saying 'I'm proud to be a feminist while crowds cheer, you hear a sad story and a smpathetic celebrity talks about how only feminism can save humanity.

So then imagine being outside that--just because you disagree with a few ideas, not the supposedly main idea.

Having said this, I agree that it is counterproductive. A person needs to accept their frustration, come out on teh other side with a plan according to their values and committment to stick to it even when it is difficult. Then he'll be able to be calmer even in the face of great provocation.

It's not that I do not sympathize. Even people in my camp bitch at me and call me traitor because I'm transgender inclusive, or because I accept that men are severely disadvantage in quite a few issues. But if all you have to argue about is a string of accusations, generalizations and overall noise, then you need to, like you said, accept the frustration and come out the other side with a plan. Calm down. Think.

He has no idea how many times he has brought up points I do agree with it, and then here come the accusations and generalizing and I just shut down. Because, New Edom, in such an environment, there is absolutely no way to have an exchange. And his imprecations today, truly pissed me off.

But that is not the topic. All I wish could be seen is that no, feminism is not a hivemind and that there are feminists who break with the camps, who go out and do battle and try to even the playing field, for everyone. That's all I wish to say.

[Natapoc]

I have another point of view. I've noticed how often there is a wall of silence when i ask hard questions. like not one feminist said "this is my plan" when I asked what they wanted practically done about rape culture. This is because there is no real plan. it's just ideological emotionalism. Hard facts, insistence on integrity and accountability and being ready to pin them down at a moment's notice. I also advocate not voting for people if they have a feminist agenda, and making it clear that you will not. Most ordinary people are just intimidated by them; they're a minority. Expose them for the lying hypocritical fanatics they are. If there are moderates, let them pick a side at last and choose humanity over their stupid ideology. It's time.

What a great topic!

What is my plan for eliminating rape culture?

As a radical* feminist, I seek to investigate the roots of systems of oppression and put my efforts there.

Rape culture comes from male entitlement to women's bodies which is based on cultural stereotypes and gender roles and the devaluation of consent.

To eliminate rape culture my plan is to:

1. Challenge the attitude of male entitlement.
2. Focus on building a culture of consent.
3. Eliminate harmful masculine expectations and gender roles.

You may attack these as "vague" but such is the nature of social change.

There are other very practical things we can do to help eliminate rape culture such as believing people who tell you they were raped, advocating safe places where people who were raped can go to feel safe, and many others.


*radix - Of or relating to the roots.

[Galloism]

I have another point of view. I've noticed how often there is a wall of silence when i ask hard questions. like not one feminist said "this is my plan" when I asked what they wanted practically done about rape culture. This is because there is no real plan. it's just ideological emotionalism. Hard facts, insistence on integrity and accountability and being ready to pin them down at a moment's notice. I also advocate not voting for people if they have a feminist agenda, and making it clear that you will not. Most ordinary people are just intimidated by them; they're a minority. Expose them for the lying hypocritical fanatics they are. If there are moderates, let them pick a side at last and choose humanity over their stupid ideology. It's time.

What a great topic!

What is my plan for eliminating rape culture?

As a radical feminist, I seek to investigate the roots of systems of oppression and put my efforts there.

Rape culture comes from male entitlement to women's bodies which is based on cultural stereotypes and gender roles and the devaluation of consent.

To eliminate rape culture my plan is to:

1. Challenge the attitude of male entitlement.
2. Focus on building a culture of consent.
3. Eliminate harmful masculine expectations and gender roles.

You may attack these as "vague" but such is the nature of social change.

There are other very practical things we can do to help eliminate rape culture such as believing people who tell you they were raped, advocating safe places where people who were raped can go to feel safe, and many others.

What are you going to do about the female entitlement to men's bodies?

Seems you've only addressed about 50-60% of rapes with your post. What about the rest?

[Natapoc]

What a great topic!

What is my plan for eliminating rape culture?

As a radical feminist, I seek to investigate the roots of systems of oppression and put my efforts there.

Rape culture comes from male entitlement to women's bodies which is based on cultural stereotypes and gender roles and the devaluation of consent.

To eliminate rape culture my plan is to:

1. Challenge the attitude of male entitlement.
2. Focus on building a culture of consent.
3. Eliminate harmful masculine expectations and gender roles.

You may attack these as "vague" but such is the nature of social change.

There are other very practical things we can do to help eliminate rape culture such as believing people who tell you they were raped, advocating safe places where people who were raped can go to feel safe, and many others.

What are you going to do about the female entitlement to men's bodies?

Seems you've only addressed about 50-60% of rapes with your post. What about the rest?

A focus on consent and eliminating harmful masculine expectations and gender roles would go a long way to eliminate female on male rape. That said, I don't consider female on male rape to be part of "rape culture". Attitudes surrounding the rape of men and the rape of women are different and many of the social mechanisms that facilitate it are also different.

Male rape is a horrible thing, which must of course end, but it's not (usually... there are some exceptions) rooted in what I would call "rape culture". Which is what my post specifically was speaking of.

You will note that there is a difference between eliminating rape culture and eliminating rape.

[New Edom]

I have another point of view. I've noticed how often there is a wall of silence when i ask hard questions. like not one feminist said "this is my plan" when I asked what they wanted practically done about rape culture. This is because there is no real plan. it's just ideological emotionalism. Hard facts, insistence on integrity and accountability and being ready to pin them down at a moment's notice. I also advocate not voting for people if they have a feminist agenda, and making it clear that you will not. Most ordinary people are just intimidated by them; they're a minority. Expose them for the lying hypocritical fanatics they are. If there are moderates, let them pick a side at last and choose humanity over their stupid ideology. It's time.

What a great topic!

What is my plan for eliminating rape culture?

As a radical* feminist, I seek to investigate the roots of systems of oppression and put my efforts there.

Rape culture comes from male entitlement to women's bodies which is based on cultural stereotypes and gender roles and the devaluation of consent.

To eliminate rape culture my plan is to:

1. Challenge the attitude of male entitlement.
2. Focus on building a culture of consent.
3. Eliminate harmful masculine expectations and gender roles.

You may attack these as "vague" but such is the nature of social change.

There are other very practical things we can do to help eliminate rape culture such as believing people who tell you they were raped, advocating safe places where people who were raped can go to feel safe, and many others.


*radix - Of or relating to the roots.

I'd like to discuss these one at a time.

Your first point raises a bunch of questions for me.

1. Do you think men generally feel entitled in some way that harms women?
2. If so, how does this manifest in terms of observable behavior?
3. Do you think that such attitudes are inherited behaviors or purely social? If the latter why?

I think that's a good start for now, I have a lot ore. I would like to say this though: i hope you realize that I probably don't agree with you but would also like to have a fair discussion that accepts that we are both (hopefully) just trying to figure out how to make the world a bit of a better place each from our own point of view. If we're cool, pleae proceed.

[Galloism]

What are you going to do about the female entitlement to men's bodies?

Seems you've only addressed about 50-60% of rapes with your post. What about the rest?

A focus on consent and eliminating harmful masculine expectations and gender roles would go a long way to eliminate female on male rape. That said, I don't consider female on male rape to be part of "rape culture". Attitudes surrounding the rape of men and the rape of women are different and many of the social mechanisms that facilitate it are also different.

Male rape is a horrible thing, which must of course end, but it's not rooted in what I would call "rape culture". Which is what my post specifically was speaking of.

You will note that there is a difference between eliminating rape culture and eliminating rape.

Arguably, rape culture of the female on male variety is both stronger and much more deeply entrenched than the male on female variety. Although male on female rape, when provable, generally brings hell down on the perpetrator (exceptions exist, naturally), female on male rape is laughed at and used as a source of humor (see Wedding Crashers, among numerous other examples).

The reaction of the Justice system is also generally one of scorn for the victim.

Rape of men by women is both prevalent and excused in popular culture, by the media, and the Justice system.

You think rape culture is bad for women? You should try being an advocate for male rape victims. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Arguably, in the West at least, societal reaction to female on male rape is the ultimate form of rape culture. The apex. Peak of rape culture evolution.

[Chessmistress]

What are you going to do about the female entitlement to men's bodies?

Seems you've only addressed about 50-60% of rapes with your post. What about the rest?

A focus on consent and eliminating harmful masculine expectations and gender roles would go a long way to eliminate female on male rape. That said, I don't consider female on male rape to be part of "rape culture". Attitudes surrounding the rape of men and the rape of women are different and many of the social mechanisms that facilitate it are also different.

Male rape is a horrible thing, which must of course end, but it's not (usually... there are some exceptions) rooted in what I would call "rape culture". Which is what my post specifically was speaking of.

You will note that there is a difference between eliminating rape culture and eliminating rape.

The fact that female on male rape is unrelated with rape culture is a well known fact, but the intersectionalist approach is actually harmful to the correct definition of what "rape culture is"
Interesting exchange with a male "feminist" subtly accusing me of encouraging rape culture while I said the same thing you have just said:
viewtopic.php?p=27412592#p27412592
viewtopic.php?p=27412824#p27412824

Patriarchy effects are not limited to male behavior: patriarchy affect maybe even more women's behavior.
But the point is that patriarchy does NOT encourage women "sexual entitlement" and by so does NOT encourage female-on-male rape.
Patriarchy encourage men sexual entitlement and by so it encourage male-on-female rape.
That's why "rape culture" within a patriarchy is referred to subtly encouranging males to rape women and NOT the opposite.

Seee? It's one of the reasons why I don't think that males should call themselves "feminists" but just only "allies", because not having had the experience of living as a woman they invariably tend to misunderstood Feminist theory - I think that Feminist theory can be full and properly understand just only by people who directly experienced female oppression.

[Philjia]

Seee? It's one of the reasons why I don't think that males should call themselves "feminists" but just only "allies", because not having had the experience of living as a woman they invariably tend to misunderstood Feminist theory - I think that Feminist theory can be full and properly understand just only by people who directly experienced female oppression.

And this effectively sums up what I hate about your approach to attaining equal rights; it's built on a subtle drive towards segregation, and works to ostracise male thought. It fails to credit men with the ability to watch, analyse, and empathise. It's dangerous, it's regressive, and it's wrong.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Seee? It's one of the reasons why I don't think that males should call themselves "feminists" but just only "allies", because not having had the experience of living as a woman they invariably tend to misunderstood Feminist theory - I think that Feminist theory can be full and properly understand just only by people who directly experienced female oppression.

And this effectively sums up what I hate about your approach to attaining equal rights; it's built on a subtle drive towards segregation, and works to ostracise male thought. It fails to credit men with the ability to watch, analyse, and empathise. It's dangerous, it's regressive, and it's wrong.

I wouldn't exactly call it subtle.

[The Guangxi Clique]

Seee? It's one of the reasons why I don't think that males should call themselves "feminists" but just only "allies", because not having had the experience of living as a woman they invariably tend to misunderstood Feminist theory - I think that Feminist theory can be full and properly understand just only by people who directly experienced female oppression.

And this effectively sums up what I hate about your approach to attaining equal rights; it's built on a subtle drive towards segregation, and works to ostracise male thought. It fails to credit men with the ability to watch, analyse, and empathise. It's dangerous, it's regressive, and it's wrong.

if that's what you call subtle then I hate to see what you'd call obvious.

[Chestaan]

To the radfems saying that the rape of males isn't a part of rape culture. How does that logically hold??

[Philjia]

And this effectively sums up what I hate about your approach to attaining equal rights; it's built on a subtle drive towards segregation, and works to ostracise male thought. It fails to credit men with the ability to watch, analyse, and empathise. It's dangerous, it's regressive, and it's wrong.

if that's what you call subtle then I hate to see what you'd call obvious.

OK, so it's actually about as subtle as an icebreaker.

[The Guangxi Clique]

To the radfems saying that the rape of males isn't a part of rape culture. How does that logically hold??

Because they're female supremacists, thay just won't say they are.

[Chestaan]

To the radfems saying that the rape of males isn't a part of rape culture. How does that logically hold??

Because they're female supremacists, thay just won't say they are.

It's particularly baffling to me as the rape of men is usually ignored or laughed at by society and surely that is the exact definition of rape culture?

[The Guangxi Clique]

Because they're female supremacists, thay just won't say they are.

It's particularly baffling to me as the rape of men is usually ignored or laughed at by society and surely that is the exact definition of rape culture?

"b-but women have it worse!"