Circumcision: Double Standard?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

South Korea (due to the american occupation, admittedly)

Japan had a US occupation but circumcision didn't take off there, so I think Koreans took a liking to the practice on their own to a certain extent. They had every opportunity to reject it but didn't.

Koreans, and Japanese, have taken a liking of cosmetic surgery of late. Chances are that the phenomenon of adult men getting circumcision is a product of that obsession with cosmetic surgery that both South Koreans and Japanese have.

A staggering one in five South Korean women has had cosmetic work done, compared to about one in 20 American women, according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons.

[Sashaaka Horde]

Sub-point 2: A major proponent of circumcision thought it caused pain and that this was a good thing, so that probably throws out the whole 'it doesn't cause pain so it's not bad' argument.

A major proponent of the nationalisation of industry thought that the killing of tens of millions of his own citizens thought that was justifiable.
So that probably throws out the whole "nationalisation of industry is a decent policy" argument.

There's a difference between a proponent of a medical procedure saying said procedure does X and this is morally Y, and someone performing X event and Y event.

The nationalization of industry and killing tens of millions of people were unconnected events. Me someone being dictator of the U.S.A. and declaring Walmart to now be a state-owned enterprise isn't going to cause, say, everyone in Philadelphia to drop dead. Two unrelated events, both of which objectively happened. They have no relation to each other except the same person did them.

By contrast, Kellogg said that circumcision causes pain and this is a good thing. Circumcision causing pain is a physiological statement, while saying this is good is a moral statement. Physiological statements are objective, although they might be false and mistaken (the idea that circumcision stopped masturbation falls here). Moral statements are subjective, in that they can't be proven true or proven false. Kellogg's comment says that circumcision causes pain. Regardless of whether that is true or false, it is an objective statement. If it is true, then the whole 'circumcision doesn't cause pain' argument is bunk. If it is false, then Kellogg was incorrect. However, he was a major figure in popularizing circumcision, so him being wrong would reflect poorly on the validity of non-religious American circumcision as a whole because the practice would be based at least partially upon false premises.

To summarize:
Stalin, I'm assuming you are talking about, nationalized industry and killed a bunch of people. These are both things Stalin did, and are unrelated. X and Y. Two unrelated objective events.

Kellogg said circumcision caused pain, which isn't an action but a statement of (potentially true or false) fact. He also said this is good, which is a moral values statement that cannot be true or false. X is Y. An objective statement, followed by a subjective statement about the objective statement.

The two cannot be compared whatsoever. False equivalence er, analogy.

[PFQ Recruiting Office]

Congratulations!

There's not many of us 13 inchers around.

Even fewer 13 inches around.

?

You mean my d*ck? The size remains the same. I'm 13 ffs.

Congratulations!

There's not many of us 13 inchers around.

I mean 13 y/o. I wish I had 13 inches though. The whole forums would bow down to me, the owner of the largest of them all..

[PFQ Recruiting Office]

Japan had a US occupation but circumcision didn't take off there, so I think Koreans took a liking to the practice on their own to a certain extent. They had every opportunity to reject it but didn't.

Koreans, and Japanese, have taken a liking of cosmetic surgery of late. Chances are that the phenomenon of adult men getting circumcision is a product of that obsession with cosmetic surgery that both South Koreans and Japanese have.

A staggering one in five South Korean women has had cosmetic work done, compared to about one in 20 American women, according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons.

Damn you Cosmetic Korea!

[Imperializt Russia]

A major proponent of the nationalisation of industry thought that the killing of tens of millions of his own citizens thought that was justifiable.
So that probably throws out the whole "nationalisation of industry is a decent policy" argument.

There's a difference between a proponent of a medical procedure saying said procedure does X and this is morally Y, and someone performing X event and Y event.

The nationalization of industry and killing tens of millions of people were unconnected events. Me someone being dictator of the U.S.A. and declaring Walmart to now be a state-owned enterprise isn't going to cause, say, everyone in Philadelphia to drop dead. Two unrelated events, both of which objectively happened. They have no relation to each other except the same person did them.

By contrast, Kellogg said that circumcision causes pain and this is a good thing. Circumcision causing pain is a physiological statement, while saying this is good is a moral statement. Physiological statements are objective, although they might be false and mistaken (the idea that circumcision stopped masturbation falls here). Moral statements are subjective, in that they can't be proven true or proven false. Kellogg's comment says that circumcision causes pain. Regardless of whether that is true or false, it is an objective statement. If it is true, then the whole 'circumcision doesn't cause pain' argument is bunk. If it is false, then Kellogg was incorrect. However, he was a major figure in popularizing circumcision, so him being wrong would reflect poorly on the validity of non-religious American circumcision as a whole because the practice would be based at least partially upon false premises.

To summarize:
Stalin, I'm assuming you are talking about, nationalized industry and killed a bunch of people. These are both things Stalin did, and are unrelated. X and Y. Two unrelated objective events.

Kellogg said circumcision caused pain, which isn't an action but a statement of (potentially true or false) fact. He also said this is good, which is a moral values statement that cannot be true or false. X is Y. An objective statement, followed by a subjective statement about the objective statement.

The two cannot be compared whatsoever. False equivalence er, analogy.

Not as bad a false equivalence as saying "Kellogg said pain was good in favour of circumcision for moral reasons" is, itself, an argument against circumcision.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Koreans, and Japanese, have taken a liking of cosmetic surgery of late. Chances are that the phenomenon of adult men getting circumcision is a product of that obsession with cosmetic surgery that both South Koreans and Japanese have.

Damn you Cosmetic Korea!

Apparently, Seoul is a mecca for plastic surgery in Asia.

[Sashaaka Horde]

Not as bad a false equivalence as saying "Kellogg said pain was good in favour of circumcision for moral reasons" is, itself, an argument against circumcision.

My statement that "Kellogg said circumcision causes pain" is a counterargument against the specific argument "circumcision doesn't cause pain to infants". Pointing out that he said this pain is a good thing is included because that means Kellogg's support for circumcision, which at least partially inspired American culture's support for it, was based on purposefully causing pain.

This is part of my larger argument that:
'American Christians circumcise their children not for religious or health reasons, but due to the questionable ideas of a cereal making doctor who hated masturbation. Circumcision also causes pain to infant boys, who cannot consent to it.'
My moral stance on this is that it is bad, because unnecessary non-consensual pain is bad.

The addition of 'cereal making' to Kellogg's description is partly humor and partly so that people have a frame of reference for who he was.

[Imperializt Russia]

Kellogg's belief about inflicting pain seems to have been specifically about causing pain to those trying to masturbate, at that time. That the soreness of the penis immediately following the procedure as an adult or adolescent, at an age at which one is probably attempting to masturbate, would discourage trying.

I don't know of many infant chronic masturbators, I must admit.

Kellogg was also far from the only proponent of circumcision for non-religious and non-medical reasons and I strongly suspect that he is not considered relevant today in most people's choices.

[Alyakia]

Kellogg's belief about inflicting pain seems to have been specifically about causing pain to those trying to masturbate, at that time. That the soreness of the penis immediately following the procedure as an adult or adolescent, at an age at which one is probably attempting to masturbate, would discourage trying.

I don't know of many infant chronic masturbators, I must admit.

Kellogg was also far from the only proponent of circumcision for non-religious and non-medical reasons and I strongly suspect that he is not considered relevant today in most people's choices.

could you do me a favour and sum up what your actual points and arguments are

[Saiwania]

I mean 13 y/o. I wish I had 13 inches though. The whole forums would bow down to me, the owner of the largest of them all..

Be careful what you wish for, the man who is reputed to have the world's largest says that his is too big and impedes normal functioning. You could appeal to size aficionados, but how many of those are really out there?

[Imperializt Russia]

Kellogg's belief about inflicting pain seems to have been specifically about causing pain to those trying to masturbate, at that time. That the soreness of the penis immediately following the procedure as an adult or adolescent, at an age at which one is probably attempting to masturbate, would discourage trying.

I don't know of many infant chronic masturbators, I must admit.

Kellogg was also far from the only proponent of circumcision for non-religious and non-medical reasons and I strongly suspect that he is not considered relevant today in most people's choices.

could you do me a favour and sum up what your actual points and arguments are

I did, twice. I keep getting dragged on tangents by people who seem to think that circumcision is literally the worst thing ever.

My "actual point and argument" boils down to "I am wholly ambivalent to this thing".

[Gim]

Koreans, and Japanese, have taken a liking of cosmetic surgery of late. Chances are that the phenomenon of adult men getting circumcision is a product of that obsession with cosmetic surgery that both South Koreans and Japanese have.

A staggering one in five South Korean women has had cosmetic work done, compared to about one in 20 American women, according to the International Society of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons.

To be honest, nowadays, it's the Chinese beginning to take a like in having plastic surgery, and there is this idea of "medical tourism", where the Chinese come to Korea for expert cosmetic surgeries, since there are a plenty of Korean plastic surgery doctors who are extremely adept at those surgeries.

[Fartsniffage]

Damn you Cosmetic Korea!

Apparently, Seoul is a mecca for plastic surgery in Asia.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Honestly, I've never had much of an issue about my penis because it is uncircumcised.

It's just a non-issue, to me. I mean, hygiene is important, but that takes less than a minute in the shower anyways. Also, I feel that it is somehow far more sensitive to things than it probably should be for some reason; but those are not big inconveniences.

People are probably so sensitive to it because it is, first and foremost, a religious practice.

What I actually meant was that my uncircumcised penis is a non-issue to clean or do other shit with it.

Definitely not that the thread is a non-issue for me.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Koreans, and Japanese, have taken a liking of cosmetic surgery of late. Chances are that the phenomenon of adult men getting circumcision is a product of that obsession with cosmetic surgery that both South Koreans and Japanese have.

To be honest, nowadays, it's the Chinese beginning to take a like in having plastic surgery, and there is this idea of "medical tourism", where the Chinese come to Korea for expert cosmetic surgeries, since there are a plenty of Korean plastic surgery doctors who are extremely adept at those surgeries.

It's really a toss up. South Koreans, Japanese and Chinese (to some extent) have become obsessed with plastic surgery. But, apparently, Koreans still take the cake there. I really see no issue in a grown person submitting themselves to the knife (including circumcision). It's their money, their lives, their person.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Apparently, Seoul is a mecca for plastic surgery in Asia.

Uh, what?

[Gim]

Apparently, Seoul is a mecca for plastic surgery in Asia.

I don't know how that is relevant to circumcision, but I can say the reason Seoul is popular for plastic surgery is due to the expertise of Korean plastic surgery doctors. As I have stated in my previous post, many Chinese people come to Korea for plastic surgery, fried chicken, and beer, not to mention the rich culture the country has.

Apparently, medical expertise in Korea is one of the tops in the world. However, that is ironic, because people I knew when I went to study abroad in Korea did not have plastic surgery at all.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't know how that is relevant to circumcision, but I can say the reason Seoul is popular for plastic surgery is due to the expertise of Korean plastic surgery doctors. As I have stated in my previous post, many Chinese people come to Korea for plastic surgery, fried chicken, and beer, not to mention the rich culture the country has.

Apparently, medical expertise in Korea is one of the tops in the world. However, that is ironic, because people I knew when I went to study abroad in Korea did not have plastic surgery at all.

Circumcision, as cosmetic surgery, has become rather a thing in Korea, hence why I brought the issue of plastic surgery up.

[Fartsniffage]

Uh, what?

Mecca....circumcision thread....

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Uh, what?

Mecca....circumcision thread....

Ah, ok. Sorry, was a bit lost there for a minute.

[Gim]

I don't know how that is relevant to circumcision, but I can say the reason Seoul is popular for plastic surgery is due to the expertise of Korean plastic surgery doctors. As I have stated in my previous post, many Chinese people come to Korea for plastic surgery, fried chicken, and beer, not to mention the rich culture the country has.

Apparently, medical expertise in Korea is one of the tops in the world. However, that is ironic, because people I knew when I went to study abroad in Korea did not have plastic surgery at all.

Circumcision, as cosmetic surgery, has become rather a thing in Korea, hence why I brought the issue of plastic surgery up.

Oh, I see. I thought you jumped straight from circumcision to cosmetic surgery. I mean, we have both advantages and drawbacks of circumcision, and I think it's medically right to circumcise or also to not circumcise. Whether Koreans do it or not, that should not be much of an outrage.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Circumcision, as cosmetic surgery, has become rather a thing in Korea, hence why I brought the issue of plastic surgery up.

Oh, I see. I thought you jumped straight from circumcision to cosmetic surgery. I mean, we have both advantages and drawbacks of circumcision, and I think it's medically right to circumcise or also to not circumcise. Whether Koreans do it or not, that should not be much of an outrage.

No outrage. If a grown man wishes to get his foreskin removed for cosmetic reasons, hey, its his body.

[Gim]

Oh, I see. I thought you jumped straight from circumcision to cosmetic surgery. I mean, we have both advantages and drawbacks of circumcision, and I think it's medically right to circumcise or also to not circumcise. Whether Koreans do it or not, that should not be much of an outrage.

No outrage. If a grown man wishes to get his foreskin removed for cosmetic reasons, hey, its his body.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind, although, personally, I don't intend making any cosmetic changes to my body.
Same with plastic surgery. I don't like plastic surgery in that it makes some individuals look artificial, but for those, especially with well-known Korean cosmetic surgery ability, that do not look artificial, I can tolerate that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No outrage. If a grown man wishes to get his foreskin removed for cosmetic reasons, hey, its his body.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind, although, personally, I don't intend making any cosmetic changes to my body.
Same with plastic surgery. I don't like plastic surgery in that it makes some individuals look artificial, but for those, especially with well-known Korean cosmetic surgery ability, that do not look artificial, I can tolerate that.

I don't especially care. Really. I won't treat anyone differently because they got a boob job done or a nose job, or whatever. Same thing with cosmetic circumcision. Adults and all. To each their own. I just wouldn't undergo plastic surgery myself.

Anyways, cosmetic surgery tangent over and done on my part.

[Gim]

Yeah, I wouldn't mind, although, personally, I don't intend making any cosmetic changes to my body.
Same with plastic surgery. I don't like plastic surgery in that it makes some individuals look artificial, but for those, especially with well-known Korean cosmetic surgery ability, that do not look artificial, I can tolerate that.

I don't especially care. Really. I won't treat anyone differently because they got a boob job done or a nose job, or whatever. Same thing with cosmetic circumcision. Adults and all. To each their own. I just wouldn't undergo plastic surgery myself.

Anyways, cosmetic surgery tangent over and done on my part.

Personally, I don't care, as long as I don't have my foreskin removed. My parents, unlike others, did not really force me to be circumcised, and I truly appreciate that.

However, some corporations might push for circumcision laws, for instance, those that use baby's foreskins for some skincare lotion. They are pretty influential, considering how Oprah supported those products.