Pagan Discussion Thread

[The Alexanderians]

I'm not contesting what you said here I thought you were defending the posts (forgive me I don't recall if they were your's or not) that basically amounted to "Christians are warmonger/violent" which came across as missing the point of the thread.

Oh, certainly not. Christianity is an extremely important contributor to Western Civilization and the Enlightenment/Renaissance as a whole, and without Christian Monasticism you could argue that Europe would never have recovered from the Dark Age. But no religion is without it's dark side, and while I don't agree with the stance that Christianity is a fundamentally derogatory doctrine, it is important to remember the atrocities committed in the name of the same God that certain wondrous works such as the Sistine Chapel were.

Goes without saying, even the Orthodox have skeletons (which is ironic considering how often we've been on the shit end of it, but no one is clean in this chess game called life). It's by acknowledging them though that we can prevent them from repeating. Still I don't expect an apology nor think it necessary from the Catholics, Sword Brothers perhaps but not the Vatican. I wasn't there so I can't speak much on it but I still feel that way knowing what I do and identifying the way I do. Like when the current Pope apologized for the Waldensians I didn't understand why it was given the attention it was. Maybe I just have a different idea of responsibility.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

I'm not contesting what you said here I thought you were defending the posts (forgive me I don't recall if they were your's or not) that basically amounted to "Christians are warmonger/violent" which came across as missing the point of the thread.

Oh, certainly not. Christianity is an extremely important contributor to Western Civilization and the Enlightenment/Renaissance as a whole, and without Christian Monasticism you could argue that Europe would never have recovered from the Dark Age. But no religion is without it's dark side, and while I don't agree with the stance that Christianity is a fundamentally derogatory doctrine, it is important to remember the atrocities committed in the name of the same God that certain wondrous artistic or scientific works such as the Sistine Chapel were made in.

To be honest historians don't seriously refer to the post Western Roman era as the "Dark Ages" anymore.

[Novaja Zemlja]

Are you talking about Tengri stuff?

That would be the Bulgars' and the Central Asian countries' native faith. Slavic paganism in the modern day is called Rodnovery. Pre-Christian Slavs had no writing system, so very, very little of their cultural practices were recorded by Christians and other non-Slavs during the period of

Tengrism also was never stamped out.

Reminds me of my family-in-law who are Volga Tatars. They are mostly Muslim but still adhere to some shamanic rituals, quite awesome if you ask me.

For myself, I am figuring my own belief out. Maybe some syncreticism between Orthodox Christianity and Tengriism is cool.

[Transoxthraxia]

Oh, certainly not. Christianity is an extremely important contributor to Western Civilization and the Enlightenment/Renaissance as a whole, and without Christian Monasticism you could argue that Europe would never have recovered from the Dark Age. But no religion is without it's dark side, and while I don't agree with the stance that Christianity is a fundamentally derogatory doctrine, it is important to remember the atrocities committed in the name of the same God that certain wondrous artistic or scientific works such as the Sistine Chapel were made in.

To be honest historians don't seriously refer to the post Western Roman era as the "Dark Ages" anymore.

The Migration Period then. A period marked by a sharp decline in literacy and urbanization, a rise of feudalism, and the utter halt in the progress of technological advancement in Western Europe.

[The Alexanderians]

To be honest historians don't seriously refer to the post Western Roman era as the "Dark Ages" anymore.

The Migration Period then. A period marked by a sharp decline in literacy and urbanization, a rise of feudalism, and the utter halt in the progress of technological advancement in Western Europe.

Too many, including some (far from many) historians still know it as the Dark Ages. I heard names besides "Migration Period" though.

[The State of Islam]

Not necessarily, especially with the concept of "Those that live by the sword will die by the sword." Christ sent his apostles out to proselytize and not to conquer. To be honest, the criticism of Christianity's perception of itself as the "only right religion," has always struck me as a bit silly. Almost all religions have this idea about themselves.

Except then they took up the sword and began conquering those that wouldn't listen to their words. During the Northern Crusades, Christian crusaders committed acts of genocide on Latvian, Lithuanian, and Old Prussian populations that refused to convert to Christianity.

If that's not the doctrine of "the only right religion", I don't know what is.

People of any ideology do that kind of thing. Why pick specifically on Christianity? Christians have also helped people all over the world and the Catholic Church and its laity invest millions into developing countries. Not saying the Church hasn't done bad things in its past but picking on Christianity and religions in general for that matter for violence is entirely futile.

[Transoxthraxia]

Except then they took up the sword and began conquering those that wouldn't listen to their words. During the Northern Crusades, Christian crusaders committed acts of genocide on Latvian, Lithuanian, and Old Prussian populations that refused to convert to Christianity.

If that's not the doctrine of "the only right religion", I don't know what is.

People of any ideology do that kind of thing. Why pick specifically on Christianity? Christians have also helped people all over the world and the Catholic Church and its laity invest millions into developing countries. Not saying the Church hasn't done bad things in its past but picking on Christianity and religions in general for that matter for violence is entirely futile.

I'm not picking on Christianity. A number of my other posts have been in the defense of Christianity. I'm just saying that my ancestors and their neighbours, friends, and family were slaughtered for their beliefs by Christians in the name of Christ. Stating otherwise would be pure fiction.

[The State of Islam]

People of any ideology do that kind of thing. Why pick specifically on Christianity? Christians have also helped people all over the world and the Catholic Church and its laity invest millions into developing countries. Not saying the Church hasn't done bad things in its past but picking on Christianity and religions in general for that matter for violence is entirely futile.

I'm not picking on Christianity. A number of my other posts have been in the defense of Christianity. I'm just saying that my ancestors and their neighbours, friends, and family were slaughtered for their beliefs by Christians in the name of Christ. Stating otherwise would be pure fiction.

I didn't deny that. I'm just saying that ideologies by nature produce conflict and violence. Any idea will contradict something, and though I'm a firm anti-Communist I do agree with the Marxist notion that society and humanity in general is always shaped by contradicting forces. Not trying to justify it but contradicting ideas in general always breed conflict and ultimately violence

[Jochistan]

I think, because paganism is mostly tied to a specific ethnic background, converting to "paganism" for nationalist reasons is generally the best reason for converting. As respect for your heritage will probably fuel observance and respect for the faith and traditions/outlooks of the faith.

No. No. No. No. Nonononononononononononononononono!

It's this kind of thinking that pretty much ruined the reconstructionist movement of the beliefs of my ancestors. Rodnovery is a cesspool of nationalism, and many Russian and Ukrainian neo-Nazi groups are affiliated with the movement. No other reconstructionist movement (Kemeticism, Heathenry, even Hellenism) is as ultranationalistic as Rodnovery. That, coupled with multiple literary forgeries still venerated by these nationalists, has basically rendered the entire movement and most of Rodnover literature useless to those of us living outside of Eastern Europe, or just those of us who aren't neo-Nazis.

Anyone who is converting to paganism for nationalistic reasons is generally doing it not out of legitimate interest in the old practices (hence why many Rodnovers still defend the Book of Veles), but just as an extension of their political beliefs.

I would argue that if they are truly interested and respectful of their own culture and the ways they believe their people followed, they would do their best to observe the rights, I would imagine.

And your political views are always reflected in your religious views or vice versa.

And Neo Nazis and ultranationalists dont represent all nationalists, for certain. Those converting for nationalist reasons sometimes do it out of respect of their heritage.
There's nothing wrong with that.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

People of any ideology do that kind of thing. Why pick specifically on Christianity? Christians have also helped people all over the world and the Catholic Church and its laity invest millions into developing countries. Not saying the Church hasn't done bad things in its past but picking on Christianity and religions in general for that matter for violence is entirely futile.

Not really. "Picking on" religion (this meaning investing in education) has been quite successful in the Western world - regarding its effects on fundamentalist devotion, removal from government and law, and a lowering of religious percentages in general. The "trend" is that religious families tend to produce more, and a base prediction is that they will begin strongly outnumbering irreligious ones within a few decades - but with continual and advanced education, I think it will be easily counteracted.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

I think, because paganism is mostly tied to a specific ethnic background....

Nope. I've met many more avidly anti-fascist, anti-racist pagans than folkisch, ethno-centric ones.

[The Lacedaemonians]

Nope. I've met many more avidly anti-fascist, anti-racist pagans than folkisch, ethno-centric ones.

The old Roman Pagans had no one ethnicity either, and neither did their gods (have one specific cultural background, as they made a habit of absorbing foreign deities and assimilating them. For the glory of Rome, ofc)

[Jochistan]

I think, because paganism is mostly tied to a specific ethnic background....

Nope. I've met many more avidly anti-fascist, anti-racist pagans than folkisch, ethno-centric ones.

Just because one is proud of their heritage and openly celebrates their ethnicity does not mean they are racist.

My point is, a Pagan tradition is tied to the practices of a culture, whether that culture is Descended (supposedly) from the Egyptians or Vikings or the Original Turks or whatever. And there's nothing wrong with converting out of ethnic pride.

[Nioya]

Are there any books you would recommend on paganism as a start?

[The Lacedaemonians]

Are there any books you would recommend on paganism as a start?

That depends. Is there any particular tradition you're interested in? Greek? Roman? Norse? Egyptian? Celtic? Slavic? Baltic?

[Nioya]

Are there any books you would recommend on paganism as a start?

That depends. Is there any particular tradition you're interested in? Greek? Roman? Norse? Egyptian? Celtic? Slavic? Baltic?

I guesss everyone except maybe baltic.

[The Lacedaemonians]

I guesss everyone except maybe baltic.

The Greco-Roman tradition is always a nice place to start then, as I find that most seem acquainted with Classical mythology right from the get-go thanks to pop culture. Encyclopedias are always useful for getting to know the pantheons of deities and other beings in a tradition, so for that I point you to Luke and Monica Roman's Encyclopedia of Greek & Roman Mythology, and Classical Mythology by Monford and Lenardon. Familiarity with the lore's always a plus for getting started.

You must also check out Homer's Iliad covering the Trojan War and his Odyssey as well, and for Rome's national epic (aka its founding legend) I direct you to Virgil and his brilliant Aeneid following Aenas and the humble beginnings of the Roman world.

When you're familiar with the basics, Jorg Rupke has some excellent books on the Roman Religion, and Cicero's On Duties and On Divination will help furbish you with the ethics and basic ritual flavor of the Cultus Deorum.

[Meryuma]

Are there any books you would recommend on paganism as a start?

I've heard a lot of good things about Paganism: An Introduction to Earth-Centered Religions (tho I would like to note that there are pagan religions that aren't really "earth-centered" like Kemeticism and Aztec polytheism).

[The Grey Wolf]

Nope. I've met many more avidly anti-fascist, anti-racist pagans than folkisch, ethno-centric ones.

The old Roman Pagans had no one ethnicity either, and neither did their gods (have one specific cultural background, as they made a habit of absorbing foreign deities and assimilating them. For the glory of Rome, ofc)

Rome didn't really care what ethnicity or culture you were as long as you paid your taxes and were a loyal citizen.

[Transoxthraxia]

That depends. Is there any particular tradition you're interested in? Greek? Roman? Norse? Egyptian? Celtic? Slavic? Baltic?

I guesss everyone except maybe baltic.

Wwwwwwwow

[The Lacedaemonians]

Rome didn't really care what ethnicity or culture you were as long as you paid your taxes and were a loyal citizen.

Also busting that ridiculous NT myth that Christians were persecuted for their faith, when in fact they were just troublemakers and had to be dealt with.

[Quokkastan]

Rome didn't really care what ethnicity or culture you were as long as you paid your taxes and were a loyal citizen.

Also busting that ridiculous NT myth that Christians were persecuted for their faith, when in fact they were just troublemakers and had to be dealt with.

When "dealt with" involves being made to sit down on a smoldering hot iron chair until you die, it's fair to call it "persecution."

[The Alexanderians]

I guesss everyone except maybe baltic.

Wwwwwwwow

It's ok bro, educate me instead.

[Jochistan]

What do you guys think of "Pagan" Traditions Syncretic with Abrahamic religions? Like forms of Folk Christianity and Islam such as Voodoo and Alevism?

Do you think said heterodox groups are better than the Orthodox versions of the Abrahamic faiths? Do you think they're more "Pagan "or Abrahamic

[Meryuma]

What do you guys think of "Pagan" Traditions Syncretic with Abrahamic religions? Like forms of Folk Christianity and Islam such as Voodoo and Alevism?

Do you think said heterodox groups are better than the Orthodox versions of the Abrahamic faiths? Do you think they're more "Pagan "or Abrahamic

Alevism seems more Muslim than Pagan. Haitian Vodou is definitely more Pagan than Christian tho and is really cool. I kinda like seeing Abrahamic folk practices like local saint cult myself ("cult" here used in the Roman sense). On an aesthetic level I certainly prefer Catholicism and Orthodoxy to Protestantism, for instance.