Pagan Discussion Thread

[Quokkastan]

That would be the Bulgars' and the Central Asian countries' native faith. Slavic paganism in the modern day is called Rodnovery. Pre-Christian Slavs had no writing system, so very, very little of their cultural practices were recorded by Christians and other non-Slavs during the period of

Tengrism also was never stamped out.

Well did they have some sort of morality where they valued the preservation of other cultures and beliefs?

Tengriism or Slavic Paganism?

I don't know much about Slavic religion, but Tengriism under the Genghisid Mongol Khanates was renowned for its religious tolerance. Often bordering on syncretism.

[Asherahan]

Ishtar why did we ever stop worshipping you...

Because they murdered every male they had sex with?

Thats propaganda.

[Modern Skaaneland]

I'm not a believer in the old Norse mythology but I find it very interesting. Likewise the vikings and their way of life. I think it's important to remember that history aswell as modern days.

[Meryuma]

Nothing about Christianity makes it any more prone than any other religion or ideology to acts of genocide. Many would see what the Vikings did in Scotland, Ireland and the North of England as genocide.

Yes, some Vikings were absolute dickheads who murdered monks and destroyed manuscripts. But "genocide" isn't a catch-all term for large-scale war crimes. It specifically means attempting to exterminate an ethnic group. Meanwhile, the heathen Norse kings in England didn't even try to convert their subjects to their religion.

To be honest, the criticism of Christianity's perception of itself as the "only right religion," has always struck me as a bit silly. Almost all religions have this idea about themselves.

Almost all religions traditionally believe their cosmology is the most correct, but only a handful think that there is one exclusively true way and that any deviance from that is evil.

[Tafhan]

That would be the Bulgars' and the Central Asian countries' native faith. Slavic paganism in the modern day is called Rodnovery. Pre-Christian Slavs had no writing system, so very, very little of their cultural practices were recorded by Christians and other non-Slavs during the period of

Tengrism also was never stamped out.

Well did they have some sort of morality where they valued the preservation of other cultures and beliefs?

Tengriism most certainly did. Under Genghis and (disputably) the Khazars.

[The Hobbesian Metaphysician]

Because they murdered every male they had sex with?

Thats propaganda.

The epic of gilgamesh is hardly propaganda.

[Immoren]

Thats propaganda.

The epic of gilgamesh is hardly propaganda.

Still haven't read that despite it being on our shelf for ages. For some reason.

[Tafhan]

Thats propaganda.

The epic of gilgamesh is hardly propaganda.

It may have been propaganda for whoever the Historical Gilgamesh was based on.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Thats propaganda.

The epic of gilgamesh is hardly propaganda.

Never read it, though I should. I'm fond of the Eddas, though.

[Tafhan]

Come to think of it, any Sumerian Pagan movements? Worshippers of Enki Here?

They'd probably be the more well sourced movements of "neopaganism".

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Come to think of it, any Sumerian Pagan movements? Worshippers of Enki Here?

They'd probably be the more well sourced movements of "neopaganism".

I'm not sure I've come into contact with any, curiously enough. But speaking of further "pagan" movements: Would Native American spirituality be considered pagan? I gave my father a book, God is Red, last year, but have never asked him about it. From what I've gleaned in my spirituality research, it seems fairly interesting, but not exactly well-laid-out outside the actual tribes and their insular ceremonies.

[Tafhan]

Come to think of it, any Sumerian Pagan movements? Worshippers of Enki Here?

They'd probably be the more well sourced movements of "neopaganism".

I'm not sure I've come into contact with any, curiously enough. But speaking of further "pagan" movements: Would Native American spirituality be considered pagan? I gave my father a book, God is Red, last year, but have never asked him about it. From what I've gleaned in my spirituality research, it seems fairly interesting, but not exactly well-laid-out outside the actual tribes and their insular ceremonies.

Probably. But they probably don't like being called Pagan.

[The Alexanderians]

I'm not sure I've come into contact with any, curiously enough. But speaking of further "pagan" movements: Would Native American spirituality be considered pagan? I gave my father a book, God is Red, last year, but have never asked him about it. From what I've gleaned in my spirituality research, it seems fairly interesting, but not exactly well-laid-out outside the actual tribes and their insular ceremonies.

Probably. But they probably don't like being called Pagan.

Hi, insight from someone with Iroquois background. No I doubt very much any native American group (I certainly don't speak for all of them least of all ones I'm completely unrelated to) would appreciate their belief system being called "pagan". AS it carries completely different meanings and associations.

[Tafhan]

Probably. But they probably don't like being called Pagan.

Hi, insight from someone with Iroquois background. No I doubt very much any native American group (I certainly don't speak for all of them least of all ones I'm completely unrelated to) would appreciate their belief system being called "pagan". AS it carries completely different meanings and associations.

How much Iroquois blood do you have? What fraction I mean?

[Transoxthraxia]

Probably. But they probably don't like being called Pagan.

Hi, insight from someone with Iroquois background. No I doubt very much any native American group (I certainly don't speak for all of them least of all ones I'm completely unrelated to) would appreciate their belief system being called "pagan". AS it carries completely different meanings and associations.

listen here kiddo

no polytheist/shamanist/pantheist/animist appreciates the term pagan unless you're deliberately ignorant, so you'd better check your privilege.

[The Alexanderians]

Hi, insight from someone with Iroquois background. No I doubt very much any native American group (I certainly don't speak for all of them least of all ones I'm completely unrelated to) would appreciate their belief system being called "pagan". AS it carries completely different meanings and associations.

How much Iroquois blood do you have? What fraction I mean?

1/8th registered with an non-Iroquois reservation though (long as f*** story behind that, tl;dr simple displacement)

[Tafhan]

Hi, insight from someone with Iroquois background. No I doubt very much any native American group (I certainly don't speak for all of them least of all ones I'm completely unrelated to) would appreciate their belief system being called "pagan". AS it carries completely different meanings and associations.

listen here kiddo

no polytheist/shamanist/pantheist/animist appreciates the term pagan unless you're deliberately ignorant, so you'd better check your privilege.

Probably doesn't help to name the thread the Pagan discussion thread, then.

[Transoxthraxia]

How much Iroquois blood do you have? What fraction I mean?

1/8th registered with an non-Iroquois reservation though (long as f*** story behind that, tl;dr simple displacement)

the white men are dangerous

[Transoxthraxia]

listen here kiddo

no polytheist/shamanist/pantheist/animist appreciates the term pagan unless you're deliberately ignorant, so you'd better check your privilege.

Probably doesn't help to name the thread the Pagan discussion thread, then.

I've requested it changed multiple times, but my plight's fallen upon deaf or unwilling ears.

[The Alexanderians]

listen here kiddo

no polytheist/shamanist/pantheist/animist appreciates the term pagan unless you're deliberately ignorant, so you'd better check your privilege.

Probably doesn't help to name the thread the Pagan discussion thread, then.

Which Is why I decided to pipe in, between it and the "Christians were bad mmkay" of the previous pages it seems a little off topic.

[Transoxthraxia]

Probably doesn't help to name the thread the Pagan discussion thread, then.

Which Is why I decided to pipe in, between it and the "Christians were bad mmkay" of the previous pages it seems a little off topic.

Not particularly. The treatment of my ancestors by the Christians during the Northern Crusades is a defining factor in the modern reconstruction of the Romuva religion.

[The Alexanderians]

Which Is why I decided to pipe in, between it and the "Christians were bad mmkay" of the previous pages it seems a little off topic.

Not particularly. The treatment of my ancestors by the Christians during the Northern Crusades is a defining factor in the modern reconstruction of the Romuva religion.

Now see that's on topic, the rest however was not. IT should be noted that the Northern Crusades were not exculsively aimed at local polytheistic conversion/killing they targeted other groups and had other motivations as well. It in fact goes much deeper and many of the problems can be traced back to the Sword Brothers and Teutonic knights not having a proper leash on them. AS soon as the Vatican found out they flipped their shit on the Crusaders. Their crimes included sluaghtering villages against the orders of bishops and chruch officials and even included burning down a catholic church. So the conversions would slow and they'd have more to slaughter. Needless to say the officals were less than pleased. And then there's the issues of Novgorod and Pskov becoming targets, you know despite being Christian themselves.

I can't tell if your mention of "privilege" earlier was serious or not.

[Transoxthraxia]

Not particularly. The treatment of my ancestors by the Christians during the Northern Crusades is a defining factor in the modern reconstruction of the Romuva religion.

Now see that's on topic, the rest however was not. IT should be noted that the Northern Crusades were not exculsively aimed at local polytheistic conversion/killing they targeted other groups and had other motivations as well. It in fact goes much deeper and many of the problems can be traced back to the Sword Brothers and Teutonic knights not having a proper leash on them. AS soon as the Vatican found out they flipped their shit on the Crusaders. Their crimes included sluaghtering villages against the orders of bishops and chruch officials and even included burning down a catholic church. So the conversions would slow and they'd have more to slaughter. Needless to say the officals were less than pleased. And then there's the issues of Novgorod and Pskov becoming targets, you know despite being Christian themselves.

I can't tell if your mention of "privilege" earlier was serious or not.

It was ironic, don't worry. As was my "white men are dangerous" comment.

My main issue with the Northern Crusades is the utter unapologetic stance the Catholic Church still has on the matter centuries later. I understand that the Vatican reigned the knights in after they found out, but by then it was more often than not too late. The entirety of the Old Prussian ethnicity was either murdered or assimilated, the Proto-Latvians and Proto-Lithuanians were either forced to convert to Christianity or face certain death, et cetera.

I'm not blaming all Christians for the matter, in fact I was raised in a relatively Catholic environment. What I'm trying to get across is the slaughter that was performed in the name of Christ by the medieval equivalent of ISIS that was never, and to this date, has never been apologized for.

I'm not saying that the polytheists of the Baltic were the only victims - the Battle of the Ice shows clearly that they were not the only targets of the warmongering Teutons. But the undeniable fact is that the Baltic populations of the time were targeted and thus slaughtered due to their religious beliefs, leading to the widespread extinction of Baltic polytheism.

[The Alexanderians]

Now see that's on topic, the rest however was not. IT should be noted that the Northern Crusades were not exculsively aimed at local polytheistic conversion/killing they targeted other groups and had other motivations as well. It in fact goes much deeper and many of the problems can be traced back to the Sword Brothers and Teutonic knights not having a proper leash on them. AS soon as the Vatican found out they flipped their shit on the Crusaders. Their crimes included sluaghtering villages against the orders of bishops and chruch officials and even included burning down a catholic church. So the conversions would slow and they'd have more to slaughter. Needless to say the officals were less than pleased. And then there's the issues of Novgorod and Pskov becoming targets, you know despite being Christian themselves.

I can't tell if your mention of "privilege" earlier was serious or not.

It was ironic, don't worry. As was my "white men are dangerous" comment.

My main issue with the Northern Crusades is the utter unapologetic stance the Catholic Church still has on the matter centuries later. I understand that the Vatican reigned the knights in after they found out, but by then it was more often than not too late. The entirety of the Old Prussian ethnicity was either murdered or assimilated, the Proto-Latvians and Proto-Lithuanians were either forced to convert to Christianity or face certain death, et cetera.

I'm not blaming all Christians for the matter, in fact I was raised in a relatively Catholic environment. What I'm trying to get across is the slaughter that was performed in the name of Christ by the medieval equivalent of ISIS that was never, and to this date, has never been apologized for.

I missed your white man post until you pointed it out, so forget about that one

I'm not saying that the polytheists of the Baltic were the only victims - the Battle of the Ice shows clearly that they were not the only targets of the warmongering Teutons. But the undeniable fact is that the Baltic populations of the time were targeted and thus slaughtered due to their religious beliefs, leading to the widespread extinction of Baltic polytheism.

I'm not contesting what you said here I thought you were defending the posts (forgive me I don't recall if they were your's or not) that basically amounted to "Christians are warmonger/violent" which came across as missing the point of the thread.

[Transoxthraxia]

It was ironic, don't worry. As was my "white men are dangerous" comment.

My main issue with the Northern Crusades is the utter unapologetic stance the Catholic Church still has on the matter centuries later. I understand that the Vatican reigned the knights in after they found out, but by then it was more often than not too late. The entirety of the Old Prussian ethnicity was either murdered or assimilated, the Proto-Latvians and Proto-Lithuanians were either forced to convert to Christianity or face certain death, et cetera.

I'm not blaming all Christians for the matter, in fact I was raised in a relatively Catholic environment. What I'm trying to get across is the slaughter that was performed in the name of Christ by the medieval equivalent of ISIS that was never, and to this date, has never been apologized for.

I missed your white man post until you pointed it out, so forget about that one

I'm not saying that the polytheists of the Baltic were the only victims - the Battle of the Ice shows clearly that they were not the only targets of the warmongering Teutons. But the undeniable fact is that the Baltic populations of the time were targeted and thus slaughtered due to their religious beliefs, leading to the widespread extinction of Baltic polytheism.

I'm not contesting what you said here I thought you were defending the posts (forgive me I don't recall if they were your's or not) that basically amounted to "Christians are warmonger/violent" which came across as missing the point of the thread.

Oh, certainly not. Christianity is an extremely important contributor to Western Civilization and the Enlightenment/Renaissance as a whole, and without Christian Monasticism you could argue that Europe would never have recovered from the Dark Age. But no religion is without it's dark side, and while I don't agree with the stance that Christianity is a fundamentally derogatory doctrine, it is important to remember the atrocities committed in the name of the same God that certain wondrous artistic or scientific works such as the Sistine Chapel were made in.